Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Then if you want to travel that road, change the lyrics and the vocal SOUND may change because the singer is saying different words. The SOUND would be changing the music, not the words.It's not a difficult point to grasp.
-AC
Yeah, of course it is the sound...different lyrics create different sounds...do you not see that they are connected in some way?
Originally posted by Bardock42
Yeah, of course it is the sound...different lyrics create different sounds...do you not see that they are connected in some way?
Yes, but then it's the SOUND changing the MUSIC, not the words.
It doesn't matter WHAT is being said, just HOW it's being said. The sound, audio, not lyrical, not writing, not words.
It's seriously not that hard. Words don't change music, sound does.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes, but then it's the SOUND changing the MUSIC, not the words.It doesn't matter WHAT is being said, just HOW it's being said. The sound, audio, not lyrical, not writing, not words.
It's seriously not that hard. Words don't change music, sound does.
-AC
Words change sound though.
They don't. How much do words on a page change sound? None. What's the difficulty you're having here? Someone using sound to say those words, maybe. Then it becomes the sound, not the words. It's never the actual words.
As I said before, if I rhyme over an instrumental hip hop beat from another artist, minus his lyrics, plus mine, the music isn't different is it? It's exactly the same. The song as a whole may sound different, but that's because a different sound has been added, not because of words. The music is still identical, the beat hasn't changed. I could sit there with the beat going "Lalalalalalalalalalala.". The song hasn't changed because of the phrase "Lalalalalalalalala", it's changed because of the SOUND I make when I say that phrase. It's ALWAYS sound, it's never lyrics solely. You know this, so why you continually press the matter is a bit odd.
It's simple logic, Bardock. I appreciate your need to philosophise everything, but words don't have any effect on the actual music.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
They don't. How much do words on a page change sound? None. What's the difficulty you're having here? Someone using sound to say those words, maybe. Then it becomes the sound, not the words. It's never the actual words.As I said before, if I rhyme over an instrumental hip hop beat from another artist, minus his lyrics, plus mine, the music isn't different is it? It's exactly the same. The song as a whole may sound different, but that's because a different sound has been added, not because of words. The music is still identical, the beat hasn't changed. I could sit there with the beat going "Lalalalalalalalalalala.". The song hasn't changed because of the phrase "Lalalalalalalalala", it's changed because of the SOUND I make when I say that phrase. It's ALWAYS sound, it's never lyrics solely. You know this, so why you continually press the matter is a bit odd.
It's simple logic, Bardock. I appreciate your need to philosophise everything, but words don't have any effect on the actual music.
-AC
Actually, when spoken, words change the sound very much.
I don't know about you8 but I am unable to make "wonderful" sound like "brother" ...just not possible.
The meaning does not change the actual sound. THe words do though.
I am not very familiar with Rap, but in the music I listen to the vocals are part of the music. And the vocals change with different words. It doesn't even have to be words.
I mean, I think we are arguing different things. But "How Soon is Now" would just sound different with different lyrics.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Actually, when spoken, words change the sound very much.I don't know about you8 but I am unable to make "wonderful" sound like "brother" ...just not possible.
The meaning does not change the actual sound. THe words do though.
I am not very familiar with Rap, but in the music I listen to the vocals are part of the music. And the vocals change with different words. It doesn't even have to be words.
I mean, I think we are arguing different things. But "How Soon is Now" would just sound different with different lyrics.
It's actually like talking to a brick wall with you sometimes.
Look, lyrics do not create different sounds on their own, they don't create any sound on their own. So then how can they add to music...on their own? They don't. The sound created when singing them is what adds, and by that time it doesn't matter what the words say, because it's not them that is adding to the music, it's the sound.
I know for a fact you understand this, so why the pointless continuation? You're not a stupid man, you clearly get what I'm saying. You're probably just trying to play devil's advocate.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's actually like talking to a brick wall with you sometimes.Look, lyrics do not create different sounds on their own, they don't create any sound on their own. So then how can they add to music...on their own? They don't. The sound created when singing them is what adds, and by that time it doesn't matter what the words say, because it's not them that is adding to the music, it's the sound.
I know for a fact you understand this, so why the pointless continuation? You're not a stupid man, you clearly get what I'm saying. You're probably just trying to play devil's advocate.
-AC
All I am saying is that:
Different lyrics equals different sound (once the lyrics are used to sing)
And of course the written lyrics do not do that, and the meaning they have does not do that. But lyrics when sung are pronounced in a certain way. Which is part of the music.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes, but then it's the SOUND changing the MUSIC, not the words.It doesn't matter WHAT is being said, just HOW it's being said. The sound, audio, not lyrical, not writing, not words.
It's seriously not that hard. Words don't change music, sound does.
-AC
Originally posted by Bardock42
And of course the written lyrics do not do that, and the meaning they have does not do that. But lyrics when sung are pronounced in a certain way. Which is part of the music.
Yes, sound.
Originally posted by Phat J
the WORDS change the SOUND which changes the MUSIC.
Note the second step; "the SOUND which changes the music". Precisely, the sound changes the music, not the words. Clear? Are you getting that? The sound changes the music, the sound that comes from the human vocal, the human vocal (sound) that is necessary to make words more than just words. The words cannot do it on their own, which is what we have been discussing.
Don't say "But the words change the...", no, we're not discussing what words DO change, just what they don't. That being music.
-AC
Originally posted by Phat Ji think your not thinking widely enough.
music - sounds (everything thats in the song, including the lyrics and the beat)
That's one definition, but it's quite clearly not the definition applied here, otherwise the argument wouldn't make sense.
If you are arguing that the lyrics are more important than the music, but they are also part of the music, you've just disappeared inside yourself.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes, sound.Note the second step; "the SOUND which changes the music". Precisely, the sound changes the music, not the words. Clear? Are you getting that? The sound changes the music, the sound that comes from the human vocal, the human vocal (sound) that is necessary to make words more than just words. The words cannot do it on their own, which is what we have been discussing.
Don't say "But the words change the...", no, we're not discussing what words DO change, just what they don't. That being music.
-AC
Haha...yeah, just saying that the words are important to the music. Not because they make it, but because someone that makes a sound of them can only make certain sounds out of thenm. You get what I mean? A different word will make it impossible for the singer tio create the same sound.
Kind of like notes. They semslef obviously don't make the sound. But they tell what sound to make. Do I make myself clear? ItÄs not a complete separation.
Different lyrics make a song sound different, so they have influence on the music. I mean, that'S kind of easy to grasp, isn't it?
Originally posted by Bardock42
Haha...yeah, just saying that the words are important to the music. Not because they make it, but because someone that makes a sound of them can only make certain sounds out of thenm. You get what I mean? A different word will make it impossible for the singer tio create the same sound.Kind of like notes. They semslef obviously don't make the sound. But they tell what sound to make. Do I make myself clear? ItÄs not a complete separation.
Different lyrics make a song sound different, so they have influence on the music. I mean, that'S kind of easy to grasp, isn't it?
You're the one getting it completely wrong. Words aren't important to music, by any stretch. They are and always will be a secondary part, or less- an addition.
You are missing the point. "Different lyrics make different sounds", yes, why? Because a person is using sound, not because they are doing it themselves. So how are words, lyrics or otherwise, important to music? They're not, sound is, and sound is what words need to become lyrics.
Lyrics need music, music does not need lyrics. That's the end to the argument.
You are arguing, as you always do, on your own. Different lyrics make a song different? It's a song with different lyrics then, the music hasn't changed.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You are arguing, as you always do, on your own. Different lyrics make a song different? It's a song with different lyrics then, the music hasn't changed.-AC
The Music will have changed though. Since the vocals will have changed. We agree that vocals are part of the music, right? That's like saying you play a complete new guitar solo...but the music hasn't changed...
Originally posted by Bardock42
The Music will have changed though. Since the vocals will have changed. We agree that vocals are part of the music, right? That's like saying you play a complete new guitar solo...but the music hasn't changed...
No, it's not is it? If Morrissey changed the lyrics, the words, to The Boy with the Thorn in His Side, Johnny Marr's guitar work then wouldn't change, would it?
Stop being silly. VOCALS changing the music does not equate to lyrics changing it, because they cannot.
-AC
Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Yeah. So they write them to fit.
So they are not interchangable, since they are made after the rest of the music (I am not sure if that's actually true though, I think Leonard Cohen was more interested in his poems, the Music just came around it, i also know Bob Dylan wrote lyrics first and then fitted the music, and I have read an interview with Thom Yorke where he said they came together he with new lyrics ideas they with new music ideas).
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, it's not is it? If Morrissey changed the lyrics, the words, to The Boy with the Thorn in His Side, Johnny Marr's guitar work then wouldn't change, would it?Stop being silly. VOCALS changing the music does not equate to lyrics changing it, because they cannot.
-AC
If Johnny Marr's guitar work would change Andy Rourke's Bass wouldn't, would it?