Originally posted by Escape81
Darthsith, I won't get into another incredibly redundant and ridiculously long argument (unless I have to), but we know nothing of Ragnos's powers. Nai makes assumptions and such (which may be true) but they are not confirmed.
Oh it's not confirmed that Ragnos was the absolute and lonely top dog of the Ancient Sith Empire ?
Until such a time when we know the full scope of his powers and they are proven to be greater than everyone else's, I do not consider Ragnos as anything but your standard Ancient Sith.
Oh my. The "standart" Ancient Sith ? You're talking about people able to infuse so much Dark Side energy into a weapon that said weapon overpowered themselves (Pall) ? You're talking about people who wiped the life from entire planets (Ambria) or who's force techniques were able to exterminate a planet filled with force user including almost the entire Jedi Order of said time period (Nihilus attack on Katarr) ? You are talking about beings who's knowledge enabled a single Sith to instakill three Jedi Council members with a single force attack ? You are talking about the ancient Sith who's creatures spread terror across the galaxy millenia after their invention ? You are talking about the Ancient Sith that pulled (force based) weapons out of their ass, able to obliterate force spirits, crush buildings and even destroy entire star-systems ? Or about the guys who's prowess in battle would make people living in a period of multiple wars of Jedi vs Sith look like "children fighting with toys" ?
Hmm...can it be that the "average ancient Sith" is quite impressive and the small fact that Ragnos was the Dark Lord of the Sith somehow puts him above anybody else in the Ancient Sith Empire ?
And even then, I still say he goes down to Sidious simply because Sidious can conjure Force Storms for a fact - and without assistance from any item.
Yes. Everyone will go down against Sidious because he will conjure up something like a black hole and wipe the entire place from existance especially when it's already told that said force storms were an ancient Sith technique (even if they were never used to the extend Sidious used them).
Unless you show me the instance where Sidious uses a force storm in direct confrontation with such precission that it wipes a single opponent from existance I have to assume that he won't risk dropping something that "ravages the fabric of space-time" right in front of his feet while having to fend off some Ancient Sith Lord attacking him.
Sidious used the strongest force storms seen. Sidious invented his own techniques. Sidious invented the ability to reach out and kill someone with his anger and only Luke learned that technique from him.
ancient Sith noticeably could not use the Force Storm, or theyd have effortlessly won fleet battles.
KJA thinks Ragnos is weaker than Sidious and Kun. Ragnos is ;definitely KJA's'
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sidious used the strongest force storms seen. Sidious invented his own techniques. Sidious invented the ability to reach out and kill someone with his anger and only Luke learned that technique from him.
Did we see Sidious reaching out and kill some ancient Dark Lord of the Sith with his anger ? Proof he can ?
ancient Sith noticeably could not use the Force Storm, or theyd have effortlessly won fleet battles.
Not this again. The Force storm is directly mentioned to be an ancient Sith technique (Tales of the Jedi companion / Jedi vs Sith) so obviously some of them were able to use them.
With the same reasoning I can state that Sidious could have smashed the rebellion with all his force powers - he didn't do it so that means he doesn't have all of this force powers.
KJA thinks Ragnos is weaker than Sidious and Kun. Ragnos is ;definitely KJA's'
Already answered this in the other thread. Mace is weaker than Sidious and still defeated him. Obi-Wan is weaker then Anakin by far and still defeated him. DE Luke is clearly not as strong as Sidious on his own - still he was able to defeat him in a lightsaber fight.
He wrote in the book of anger that it was one of his strongest techniques...and since it's one he invented, an Ancient Dark Lord won't be knowing about it.
'Ancient' Sith technique could stretch all the way back to Adas or beyond, Naga and Ludo noticeably don't use it when it could save their lives. Palpatine never considered the rebels a threat...Naga was running for his life and Ludo was watching a ship slam into his
And how quickly the tone changes...Palpatine would certainly be facing Ragnos in a force fight and he has the definite edge.. And since his and Ragnos's knowledge is equal at the least, with Palpatine's new little twists..
Originally posted by Lightsnake
He wrote in the book of anger that it was one of his strongest techniques...and since it's one he invented, an Ancient Dark Lord won't be knowing about it.
Direct force action only works if you can clearly overpower your opponent. I guess this won't work that easily against another Dark Lord. I mean - the "wall of light" attack was the strongest Jedi technique mentioned and Kun still simply resisted it and was just pushed to the ground.
'Ancient' Sith technique could stretch all the way back to Adas or beyond, Naga and Ludo noticeably don't use it when it could save their lives. Palpatine never considered the rebels a threat...Naga was running for his life and Ludo was watching a ship slam into his
No. The statement is coming from a source that was written when the Ancient Sith Empire was still the 25,000 year spanning construct with Ragnos being the most powerful being it ever produced. If it says "ancient Sith" than Ragnos was included.
Naga had other possibilities (solar flares, put Kressh fleet in the way of his pursuivants). We already know that he could have ripped the core of the next star off and threw it at the Tetan's destroying them all (since his ship was able to do that).
And Ludo ? Well...if I throw a ship at you would you immediatly develop the idea to create a force storm between your ship and the one coming at you ?
And how quickly the tone changes...Palpatine would certainly be facing Ragnos in a force fight and he has the definite edge.. And since his and Ragnos's knowledge is equal at the least, with Palpatine's new little twists..
That isn't conclusive, Lightsnake. Sidious force knowledge wasn't enough to overcome Yoda who clearly didn't have as much knowledge about ancient Sith techniques than Ragnos had in a force fight. I don't think he would be able to defeat Ragnos in a force contest.
And this fight involves Sadow and Kressh too. Most likely Sadow will defeat Kressh (at least the comics hint at this with Sadow having one of the purest bloodlines in the empire, Kressh bleeding after their first duel and finally Sadow killing Kressh). And when it's Sadow + Ragnos against Sidious I don't have any doubt who's going to win this.
Yeah, but Kun was one of the two strongest sith Lords, and was wearing his Sith amulet. Palpatine's knowledge can be said to exceed Ragnos if only that he has intimate knowledge of Jedi techniques as well as what he cooked up himself.
If Ludo can't act under pressure, then he doesn't deserve to be called a warrior at all. If Naga could've used the force storm, he'd have saved his Empire...he wasn't happy about going into exile. And a solar flare explosion at that range would destroy a Sith star system and possibly kill Naga, too...however, Palpatine used it to a much stronger extent and if he couldn't full control it at its strongest, noone can.
We're forgetting Yoda's the strongest Jedi ever up to that point, though. Yoda had access to numerous ancient Sith techniques and formed defenses against most if not all Dark Side techniques. Sadow and Ludo could fight, but that would not be quick: Those two were carrying on for some time and neither showed any sign of being ready to fall...if worst came to worst, Palp could throw Ludo at Marka, and take on Naga, who he'd most likely kill and then turn his attention to Ragnos where they could fight evenly. If Marka was strong enough to defeat Naga or Ludo, Palpatine certainly is. We know Palpatine's raw power is greater, along with his knowledge and what he created himself. And by DE, he's grown even stronger, much stronger. Ragnos is facing someone with all his knowledge, plus what's he created, plus what he's made. And his power is greater. Ragnos has a chance to win, but so does Sidious
And Ludo was bleeding because Sadow chucked a rock at him...Sadow was bleeding a bit too, I think and was in the exact same straits as Ludo...he was definitely cut, too.
No offense to you lightsnake but you seem to have a knack for Sidious, and I really like it how you ignore the movies and the comics which don't necessarily put Sidious on par with MANY of the ancient sith lords, but instead you emphasize ambiguous and arbitrary text from quasi canon sources such as "Sidious is the most powerful blah blah blah". Well if you can quantify or equate his "power" with something, then more props to you. The way it is now is the fact that the ancient sith had no equals, whether its from the Golden Age or from the first ever DLOTS. What they displayed was raw power, which is exactly what is used and argued in vs. matches. You cannot come to this forum and simply say "Sidious wins because so and so called him the most powerful sith lord ever". That doesn't work in a debate.
Anyways Ragnos and Sadow should win this without much difficulty.
Kressh is about equal to Sadow, while Ragnos is above DE Sidous(Yes, despite the ambiguous text).. Would be a great match.
Oh, so then Sadow>Sidious because Sadow ripped the core out of a Sun and caused a supernova? Or Nihilus>everybody because he drained the entire life force from thousands of planets? How about Ragnos' scepter that alone drained life forces from anywhere it was used. What is your point? Explain to me how these arbitrary feats are going to help either one of these two in a VERSUS match lightsnake. And again if you are going to go by pure text, which seems to be your sole argument with every Sidious thread, why not read up on Ragnos and his surpassing command of the dark side, of him being THE dark lord, of him living in a time when the Sith were warriors all fighting each other, and were at their peak in terms of power and sith magic. Again this only speaks volumes for his near invincible power, but won't alone speak for his versus abilities..
Oh yea in case you missed it, Palpatine's Force Storm was derived from the ancient sith..
Seriously, READ the comic. Sadow's SHIP was the ting that blew up the star. The FRIGGIN SHIP. And in case YOU missed it, Palpatine knows every technique of the Jedi, and Ancient Sith and what he's invented, including the ability to kill someone instantly with his anger. Wanna go with text, dear? and by the by, ability to kill someone instantly, a technique you invented along with the ability to blast holes in people with your bare hands, and the ability to create holes ranging from small ship to big enough to devour fleets...YEAH that's gonna be helping the good emperor, who's also capable of sucking worlds dry and razing all life from them with the force
Okay, then Palpatine is the greatest Dark Lord of all time, lived in a time when the Dark Side wasn't spread thin and concentrated fully, a god in the Dark Side, a titan, a divinity of darkness, darkness beyond darkness, an event horizon in the force, THE Dark Side...Oh, by the way: the New Sith Empire surpassed the Ancient Empire
Oh, and Ragnos's creator thinks Sidious is the stronger. Thanks!
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Sexy, did you miss the comic where Sidious's raw power destroys an entire FLEET of ships?
I'm sorry, but when you actually prove something like this, to keep this up is just...Show me this 'raw power' displayed, please
Actually it was his anger and strong will, not raw forcepower.