Revan beat Malak, and we don't know how powerful he was, either.
We still know Malak was stronger than thousands of Sith. We know Malak beat Kavar, who was the best Jedi Guardian (arguably the best Jedi duelist) of that time. We know Revan beat Yusanis, an Echani grandmaster and Mandalore, who's confirmed by Canderous to have had killed Jedi.
You realize he wouldn't have to make the killing blow simply point his saber or withhold it at the end, right? Have you ever seen a bout with a bokken? Or perhaps fencing? Same concept applies.
You do realize that being able to put your opponent in a prone position without mortally wounding them is difficult, especially when the opponent is trying to kill you.
If we started swinging bastard swords around and you are told only to disable me, while I am trying to kill you, which one do you think has the advantage? I am fighting for my life, believing that you indend to kill me, while you always have the psychological relief that your instructor would jump in to save you when the going gets rough. Which one will be fighting better?
I have the advantage of slashing you anywhere I want, while your choices are a lot more limited.
Anakin came in with intent to kill, but Dooku was told to disable. What more, Palpatine lied to him, saying even if Anakin was gaining the upper hand, he would step in.
Care to rethink your position?
What more, I find it only a little strange that Dooku did not blast Anakin with lightning...
Anyways, if Dooku firmly is superior to Anakin, then why would Sidious want a weaker apprentice when he's about to execute Order 66 in a few days? Answer this point directly this time. As it makes no sense, nor does anything you say. And you can add to the fact that only three people of the PT Era can compete with Sidious - Mace, Yoda, and omg - Anakin. Dooku isn't on the list.
Oh I don't know, perhaps having the chosen one of the force fall to the dark side would be an advantage, even if he was momentarily weaker. At a certain point, according to Sidious, Anakin would surpass them both anyway.
And this means what exactly? Nothing? Anakin was good enough to defeat a Dooku that was fighting his best, thus was able to kill him. I'm going to ask again: why would Dooku be relaxing throughout the fight, or fighting at a lower standard when he's suppose to test Anakin's true power - which cannot be revealed by fighting a less motivated opponent.
He was fighting at a lower standard because he was following Palpatine's orders, "not to kill Anakin."
Uh, not really -- if Dooku is so much superior he should be able to disarm Anakin a la AOTC. He was ordered to FIGHT Anakin. You can definitely tell when someone lost a fight, they don't have to kill them. An example would be: Mace Windu vs. Sidious.
Um, in case you didn't notice, Anakin did grow stronger since AOTC. And oh boy, you are saying since Mace disarmed Sidious, then Dooku should be able to do the same to Anakin? First of all, don't steer this debate to another topic. We do not know clearly how much better Windu is compared to Palpatine when it comes down to dueling.
He was ordered to fight Anakin. To test Anakin's full strength, he cannot test Anakin's full power unless Dooku himself is giving his full strength. Simple concept, but you're making it a complicated one.
Wrong, ding dong! You are ignoring the fact that Dooku was prohibted from mortally wounding Anakin. Again, a disadvantage.
I'm sure Palpatine wouldn't be happy if Anakin beat someone who was holding back. What sense does that make? Why would he want Anakin if he gets the best of a relatively lowered Dooku?
I say this again, Dooku was prohibited from killing Skywalker! He had to make sure that he did not land a potentially fatal blow. Skywalker won by circumstance alone, not by any real skill over Dooku's. Even if Skywalker defeated a lowered Dooku, Palpatine knew that Skywalker had great potential in the force. One that after being nurtured, would make him the strongest Sith Lord of the PT.
Again, WTF are you talking about? Here's an instance where someone was better off one on one than working as a team:TPM Kenobi did better against Maul than Qui-Gon and himself did. There you go, another instance where one person faired better one on one than two on one.
Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi were coordinated, I mean they had worked together for some damn time...yet Obi-Wan faired better against Maul alone. M I RITE? Yes.
And Qui Gon died. So much for fighting Maul alone. Obi Wan used this as his stimulus to defeat Maul. Otherwise Maul would have definately won the battle. The outcome of the battle was largely determined by Maul's overconfidence anyways. He was close to killing Kenobi.
Anakin wasn't angry firstly, and secondly they needed to WORK TOGETHER. Sometimes two on one can work towards the one man if the two's combat styles don't mesh.
Anakin and Obi Wan attacked Dooku once before. They had time to analyze his attacks and maneuvers. Yet they were unable to gain any serious advantage against Dooku the second time, despite being one of the best co-ordinated duos of the PT.
If Anakin and Obi Wan attacking together did not have any advantage, then why did they work together to defeat Assajj Ventress in Obsession?
Obviously Obi-Wan attacking on the offensive isn't good because that's not what his style was meant for, and Anakin got less swings in because of Obi-Wan.
Is it so difficult to understand that they could have fought Dooku on either side? Dooku was still deflecting both of their attacks. What does that say about Dooku's dueling abilities? Nah wait, I will let you answer that.
Anyways, one last question (actually I have three more): if Dooku is superior, then why couldn't he just disarm him or disable him? If he's such the superior swordsman, he should be able to do such.
I was not arguing by what margin Dooku was superior, just that he was a better duelist who lost due to unfavourable circumstances than any overbearing skill on Anakin's part.
As well, doesn't Dooku even realize himself that he's in danger towards the end, and proceeds to go all out?
You said it yourself, he was following Palpatine's orders as a good apprentice would. Not to kill Anakin, but test him. He thought Sidious would jump to the rescue. He didn't though.
Regardless, it really makes no sense because if Dooku was superior then why would Anakin be tested against him if he was just going to lose anyways? And then you have the other query, why would he fight a lesser Dooku? The Sith don't want weaker apprentices - they want stronger ones. As much is obvious.
Sidious knew Anakin had the potential to be the greatest, he wanted to see how far Anakin progressed. Palpatine lied to Dooku, and told Dooku to hold back from killing Anakin, hence Anakin benefitted from the situation
Originally posted by zephiel7
You do realize that being able to put your opponent in a prone position without mortally wounding them is difficult, especially when the opponent is trying to kill you.
If Dooku is superior to Anakin he'd have no problem. I don't even know why you bothered to respond since Lightsnake and myself both provided the facts - quotes, sources, etc.
But just for the hell of it I'll go along...
If we started swinging bastard swords around
This isn't Medieval Storytime, Siegfried.
and you are told only to disable me, while I am trying to kill you,
Hm, I seem to remember Anakin not going for the killing blow, therefore your entire situation - much like your entire argument - falls apart.
which one do you think has the advantage? I am fighting for my life, believing that you indend to kill me, while you always have the psychological relief that your instructor would jump in to save you when the going gets rough. Which one will be fighting better?
*Screech* Hit the brakes, cap'n - we have a problem here. Dooku is loyal, similar to Darth Maul. Taking that in hand, he was told to give it his all by none other than...his commanding officer, Darth Leatherface, and when he tells you to do something you better f*cking do it.
I have the advantage of slashing you anywhere I want, while your choices are a lot more limited.
I'll reply to this scenario with a word I'm fond of - "No".
Anakin came in with intent to kill,
Really? Is that why he said, and I quote, "I shouldn't." - this point is done, so you can pucker up and kiss that argument goodbye. bye
but Dooku was told to disable.
He was told to fight.
What more, Palpatine lied to him, saying even if Anakin was gaining the upper hand, he would step in.
And? This somehow means he should disobey commands, and not test Anakin's full strength? Nope.
Why would Palpatine even need to step in if Dooku is better? Why would Anakin gain the upper hand? Why would the thought even be?
If he really was testing his strength, he could duel at full skill and see how good he is. And, according to *you*, Dooku is better; therefore Dooku losing wouldn't be a factor, or even a thought for that matter.
Care to rethink your position?
❌
What more, I find it only a little strange that Dooku did not blast Anakin with lightning...
And Force lightning has been shown to be blocked by a less skilled Kenobi.
I wonder why Sidious didn't destroy DE Luke with his "amazing, terrifying, insane, l337" skillz! I wonder why Exar Kun didn't blast a hole right through Vodo's chest instead of confronting him. I wonder why Dooku doesn't use Force lightning at every turn. I wonder why Kreia doesn't instakill everybody in her path.
I find it a little stran-- oh wait, no I don't.
Oh I don't know, perhaps having the chosen one of the force fall to the dark side would be an advantage, even if he was momentarily weaker. At a certain point, according to Sidious, Anakin would surpass them both anyway.
Actually, according to Sidious Anakin was already more powerful.
As well, why would he want the weaker apprentice when the Jedi Purge was in a few days? Why would he just let Anakin kill Dooku if he was weaker? He wouldn't.
Ya' know it's coming...
Logic > you.
Um, in case you didn't notice, Anakin did grow stronger since AOTC.
But if our wonderful Count of Sereno is so much better, he should've had no problem. I mean he dispatched Obi-Wan oh-so easily, so why not Anakin?
Wait, don't answer that. I forgot I already know the answer: because Anakin > Dooku.
P.S. - Don't think about pulling the "but who was left without limbs, HUH BUB?!" card - it's already been countered.
And oh boy, you are saying since Mace disarmed Sidious, then Dooku should be able to do the same to Anakin?
No, I'm not saying that. Actually, what in the hell are you even talking about? I'm saying Dooku doesn't have to kill Anakin to know he won the fight. Misinterpreted.
First of all, don't steer this debate to another topic. We do not know clearly how much better Windu is compared to Palpatine when it comes down to dueling.
Steering in a different direction? I was giving an example, or another instance of where the same circumstances have been shown.
Wrong, ding dong! You are ignoring the fact that Dooku was prohibted from mortally wounding Anakin. Again, a disadvantage.
So was Anakin. He's a JEDI, ya' know those "Upholders of the Peace", and all that jazz.
And Qui Gon died. So much for fighting Maul alone. Obi Wan used this as his stimulus to defeat Maul. Otherwise Maul would have definately won the battle. The outcome of the battle was largely determined by Maul's overconfidence anyways. He was close to killing Kenobi.
Point being? Qui-Gon faired horribly IMO when working with Obi-Wan, and faired horribly when going one on one with Maul. Obi-Wan, however, was different than Qui-Gon. He had a better fight with Maul alone than working as a team. That reminds me of a scene in ROTS...
Anakin and Obi Wan attacked Dooku once before. They had time to analyze his attacks and maneuvers. Yet they were unable to gain any serious advantage against Dooku the second time, despite being one of the best coordinated duos of the PT.
What the hell are you talking about? And "one of the best coordinated duos of the PT"? You know that if you aren't the worst, you can be "one of the best".
Anyways, I don't see how they had "time to analyze his attacks and maneuvers", or actually why they even would. Did they know they'd face him in the future? No.
If Anakin and Obi Wan attacking together did not have any advantage, then why did they work together to defeat Assajj Ventress in Obsession?
Maybe because they work better against some forms over others.
Sure, it has an advantage - numbers, and puts the person defending at a disadvantage, however, looking at the flip side it can be a disadvantage for the two people as well. The best answer I could give is that it depends on the scenario really.
Is it so difficult to understand that they could have fought Dooku on either side? Dooku was still deflecting both of their attacks. What does that say about Dooku's dueling abilities? Nah wait, I will let you answer that.
It says he can block a defensive lightsaber style that's trying to attack offensively, and someone who has to be aware of his partner's safety.
Dooku is a great duelist. In the top 5 of the PT, however, Anakin's just better.
I was not arguing by what margin Dooku was superior, just that he was a better duelist who lost due to unfavourable circumstances than any overbearing skill on Anakin's part.
Sadly, your argument has been trumped by several sources.
You said it yourself, he was following Palpatine's orders as a good apprentice would. Not to kill Anakin, but test him. He thought Sidious would jump to the rescue. He didn't though.
Okay...is my entire argument some sort of foreign concept to you? I mean I'm Asian, but c'mon - does it look like I'm speaking Japanese?
Why would Sidious need to "jump to the rescue" if Dooku is superior?
The purpose was to assess Anakin's abilities, not to determine whether he was stronger than Dooku.
It's kind of hard to test full abilities if you are not giving the test with everything you've got. Anakin could defeat a Dooku that is "relaxing" as you put it, but what does that speak for Anakin's skill/ability? It really doesn't. Plus, there'd be no reason for Palpatine to need to step in then.
The whole part of Sidious jumping in was just a reassurance, just in case somehow things got out of hand (and they could have, Kenobi could have still remained in the fight).
Actually, Kenobi wasn't really a factor to begin with. It was Anakin, notice "if Anakin gets the best of you...", not "if somehow Kenobi jumps back to life and together they whoop yo' ass".
So, again I say, if Dooku is Anakin's superior - and I doubt he'd make a mistake on purpose or even on accident considering his arrogance ("I've become more powerful than any Jedi"😉 and his dueling skill - then there should be no reason for Palpatine to even say "if Anakin gets the best of you".
Sidious knew Anakin had the potential to be the greatest, he wanted to see how far Anakin progressed. Palpatine lied to Dooku, and told Dooku to hold back from killing Anakin, hence Anakin benefitted from the situation [/B]
I'll end with this:
Palpatine already said Anakin was more powerful. Making of ROTS acknowledges Anakin would win fair and square. ROTS Novelization and the commentary both add to this fact. So...
The verdict: Anakin > Dooku.
Case closed.
Now back to the subject, what exactly does Revan have that tells me he's better than Anakin? Really.
Force Powers? Which?
Lightsaber ability? What form does he use again?
He beat Malak while Malak was empowered by the Star Forge. Great. Amplify the powers of the Star Forge.
Originally posted by Motoko Sama
If Dooku is superior to Anakin he'd have no problem. I don't even know why you bothered to respond since Lightsnake and myself both provided the [b]facts - quotes, sources, etc.But just for the hell of it I'll go along...
This isn't Medieval Storytime, Siegfried.
Hm, I seem to remember Anakin not going for the killing blow, therefore your entire situation - much like your entire argument - falls apart.
*Screech* Hit the brakes, cap'n - we have a problem here. Dooku is loyal, similar to Darth Maul. Taking that in hand, he was told to give it his all by none other than...his commanding officer, Darth Leatherface, and when he tells you to do something you better f*cking do it.
I'll reply to this scenario with a word I'm fond of - "No".
Really? Is that why he said, and I quote, "I shouldn't." - this point is done, so you can pucker up and kiss that argument goodbye. bye
He was told to fight.
And? This somehow means he should disobey commands, and not test Anakin's full strength? Nope.
Why would Palpatine even need to step in if Dooku is better? Why would Anakin gain the upper hand? Why would the thought even be?
If he really was testing his strength, he could duel at full skill and see how good he is. And, according to *you*, Dooku is better; therefore Dooku losing wouldn't be a factor, or even a thought for that matter.
❌
And Force lightning has been shown to be blocked by a less skilled Kenobi.
I wonder why Sidious didn't destroy DE Luke with his "amazing, terrifying, insane, l337" skillz! I wonder why Exar Kun didn't blast a hole right through Vodo's chest instead of confronting him. I wonder why Dooku doesn't use Force lightning at every turn. I wonder why Kreia doesn't instakill everybody in her path.
I find it a little stran-- oh wait, no I don't.
Actually, according to Sidious Anakin was already more powerful.
As well, why would he want the weaker apprentice when the Jedi Purge was in a few days? Why would he just let Anakin kill Dooku if he was weaker? He wouldn't.
Ya' know it's coming...
Logic > you.
But if our wonderful Count of Sereno is so much better, he should've had no problem. I mean he dispatched Obi-Wan oh-so easily, so why not Anakin?
Wait, don't answer that. I forgot I already know the answer: because Anakin > Dooku.
P.S. - Don't think about pulling the "but who was left without limbs, HUH BUB?!" card - it's already been countered.
No, I'm not saying that. Actually, what in the hell are you even talking about? I'm saying Dooku doesn't have to kill Anakin to know he won the fight. Misinterpreted.
Steering in a different direction? I was giving an example, or another instance of where the same circumstances have been shown.
So was Anakin. He's a JEDI, ya' know those "Upholders of the Peace", and all that jazz.
Point being? Qui-Gon faired horribly IMO when working with Obi-Wan, and faired horribly when going one on one with Maul. Obi-Wan, however, was different than Qui-Gon. He had a better fight with Maul alone than working as a team. That reminds me of a scene in ROTS...
What the hell are you talking about? And "one of the best coordinated duos of the PT"? You know that if you aren't the worst, you can be "one of the best".
Anyways, I don't see how they had "time to analyze his attacks and maneuvers", or actually why they even would. Did they know they'd face him in the future? No.
Maybe because they work better against some forms over others.
Sure, it has an advantage - numbers, and puts the person defending at a disadvantage, however, looking at the flip side it can be a disadvantage for the two people as well. The best answer I could give is that it depends on the scenario really.
It says he can block a defensive lightsaber style that's trying to attack offensively, and someone who has to be aware of his partner's safety.
Dooku is a great duelist. In the top 5 of the PT, however, Anakin's just better.
Sadly, your argument has been trumped by several sources.
Okay...is my entire argument some sort of foreign concept to you? I mean I'm Asian, but c'mon - does it look like I'm speaking Japanese?
Why would Sidious need to "jump to the rescue" if Dooku is superior?
It's kind of hard to test full abilities if you are not giving the test with everything you've got. Anakin could defeat a Dooku that is "relaxing" as you put it, but what does that speak for Anakin's skill/ability? It really doesn't. Plus, there'd be no reason for Palpatine to need to step in then.
Actually, Kenobi wasn't really a factor to begin with. It was Anakin, notice "if Anakin gets the best of you...", not "if somehow Kenobi jumps back to life and together they whoop yo' ass".
So, again I say, if Dooku is Anakin's superior - and I doubt he'd make a mistake on purpose or even on accident considering his arrogance ("I've become more powerful than any Jedi"😉 and his dueling skill - then there should be no reason for Palpatine to even say "if Anakin gets the best of you".
I'll end with this:
Palpatine already said Anakin was more powerful. Making of ROTS acknowledges Anakin would win fair and square. ROTS Novelization and the commentary both add to this fact. So...
The verdict: Anakin > Dooku.
Case closed.
Now back to the subject, what exactly does Revan have that tells me he's better than Anakin? Really.
Force Powers? Which?
Lightsaber ability? What form does he use again?He beat Malak while Malak was empowered by the Star Forge. Great. Amplify the powers of the Star Forge. [/B]
Thats just ownage Motoko.
I'm tired of hearing all this Dooku > Anakin crap. I stopped arguing it a LONG time ago. As I remember I was the first to argue it. I believe I was the first to provide the quote from Mr. Lucas from the DVD commentary. Then, after all the Dooku fanboys STILL refuted what even the HIGHEST canon (Lucas) had said. I gave up trying. Why? Because the Dooku fanboys just refuse to believe that their precious Dooku could lose. He did, SOOOO many sources, including Lucas (the highest source) have said it. So just get over it.
Anakin is BETTER then Dooku!
THE END!
Now as for Anakin vs. Revan, I've not seen Revan do anything that amazing. I'd say Anakin wins, after a good fight. Revan is no slouch afterall.
Holy shit Soma that was a story.. Congratulations on proving Anakin>Dooku.. Now I'm going to argue this without reading that book you just wrote. So Anakin>Dooku simply because he won in a saber fight right? I'm sure you addressed but I'm going to blindly state that your logic dictates that Obiwan>Anakin because Obiwan beat him, excuses aside. Now lets take into consideration that Revan has shown far more impressive abilities, was the best of his time(exclusing probably Exar Kun), and defeated a Malak(who alone would probably be a match or equal to Dooku), powered by 8+ jedi+SF. Now if you can give examples of what Anakin did that was nearly as impressive as this, as a testament to his power, I am inclined to listen.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Holy shit Soma that was a story.. Congratulations on proving Anakin>Dooku.. Now I'm going to argue this without reading that book you just wrote. So Anakin>Dooku simply because he won in a saber fight right? I'm sure you addressed but I'm going to blindly state that your logic dictates that Obiwan>Anakin because Obiwan beat him, excuses aside. Now lets take into consideration that Revan has shown far more impressive abilities, was the best of his time(exclusing probably Exar Kun), and defeated a Malak(who alone would probably be a match or equal to Dooku), powered by 8+ jedi+SF. Now if you can give examples of what Anakin did that was nearly as impressive as this, as a testament to his power, I am inclined to listen.
I don't think Sama said that she believed that Anakin would defeat Revan. The way I understand, she was simply trying to explain to Zephiel what I tried to explain to Darth Vious. That Dooku lost, fair and square, because he was simply inferior to Anakin.
Personally? I think that Revan would defeat Anakin, but it would be a difficult fight. Simply because Anakin's power levels fluctuate so dramatically, and his raw connection to the Force is the strongest we've seen. He is 'teh Chosen One', y'know.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yea man his raw connection is the strongest but his raw connection never did anything as you know. He never lived up to anything except a failure. I would put Revan above the entire PT council except for POSSIBLY Yoda, but Anakin would have a very slim to none chance against him.
Anakin's raw connection and primal ability allowed him to defeat a Force-user whose experience and finesse largely outranked his own. It also allowed him to get even stronger as a fight progressed.
So, who knows? If the fight grows on long enough - Anakin may simply just build up so much rage and hatred that he overpowers Revan, due to the fact that the script confirmed that Anakin gets stronger during the fights he's in.
So, no. Anakin doesn't have a slim to small chance against Revan. He has a good one, but I think that Revan would ultimately understand the threat Anakin poses in a long fight, and would do whatever he could to take him out immediately.
Also - Yoda or Sidious (even in RotS) would give Revan a hell of a fight.
I think you are mistaken about his strength based on his raw connection. It is common knowledge that any Jedi/Sith gets stronger when they use the dark side of the force.
And while Sidious and Yoda might give him a fight, neither one of them can ultimately compare to Revan, not until Sidious gets into DE, in which he would probably curbstomp him..
I think you are mistaken about his strength based on his raw connection. It is common knowledge that any Jedi/Sith gets stronger when they use the dark side of the force.
No. The script confirmed that he was getting stronger before Dooku even began taunting him, which is why Dooku had to put Obi-Wan out of the fight - so he could concentrate all of his energies on Anakin. Anakin was becoming too much for him.
And while Sidious and Yoda might give him a fight, neither one of them can ultimately compare to Revan, not until Sidious gets into DE, in which he would probably curbstomp him..
I think that Sidious and Yoda would give Revan an excellent fight. Likely defeat him? No, but that's just my opinion. Especially given Yoda's undeniable speed and overwhelming agility. Sidious also possesses this - and his knack for tactical fighting. Though Revan is a tactical genius in his own right.
And, yes. As of Dark Empire, Sidious would crush Revan.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Holy shit Soma that was a story..
Yeah, a nice bedtime story.
Congratulations on proving Anakin>Dooku.. Now I'm going to argue this without reading that book you just wrote.
Book? Lol.
So Anakin>Dooku simply because he won in a saber fight right?
Nope, other things including Sidious himself, The Making of ROTS, the New Essential Chronology, among numerous other sources which eventually add up in Revenge of the Sith itself.
I'm sure you addressed but I'm going to blindly state that your logic dictates that Obiwan>Anakin because Obiwan beat him, excuses aside.
Not at all actually. How does my logic dictate that exactly? I even argued that Anakin > Obi-Wan on fair ground. Obi-Wan beat him unfairly. Anakin beat Dooku fairly. So, how would I be arguing Kenobi > Skywalker?
Now lets take into consideration that Revan has shown far more impressive abilities,
Such as? Don't just say "impressive sh*t" - what exactly do you consider "impressive abilities"?
was the best of his time(exclusing probably Exar Kun),
How can he be the "best of his time" when right after you mention he might not be?
Whatever, I'll let this one slide.
and defeated a Malak(who alone would probably be a match or equal to Dooku), powered by 8+ jedi+SF.
Again, I say - great feat, Revan. Seriously, that is impressive. Malak is a pure brute, and a great fighter. However, you've yet to amplify the powers or even explain the extent of how Revan won.
Now if you can give examples of what Anakin did that was nearly as impressive as this, as a testament to his power, I am inclined to listen.
You didn't even give me anything to work with. All you said was "did impressive stuff, best of his time, beat Malak". BEAT MALAK. That's really the only thing you gave me, lol.
And Escape is right, I was basically just trying to clear up (for anybody who didn't know/wouldn't accept) the matter on Anakin and Dooku. It's still attests Anakin's ability, but that's not the only thing I'm arguing. So far, I've gotten nothing to refute on the matter really, which is why I asked "which Force powers? What form?", etc.