Eh you can say that Anakin>Obiwan on fair ground, but that wasn't the case. It was more like Anakin=Obiwan on fair ground, and MAYBE after a long time Anakin would win, but he was getting the kicks in as much as Obiwan, lucas made that a fair fight. On the other hand, Yoda=Sidious at a disadvantage, so that would make Yoda>Sidious on fair ground.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Eh you can say that Anakin>Obiwan on fair ground, but that wasn't the case. It was more like Anakin=Obiwan on fair ground, and MAYBE after a long time Anakin would win, but he was getting the kicks in as much as Obiwan, lucas made that a fair fight. On the other hand, Yoda=Sidious at a disadvantage, so that would make Yoda>Sidious on fair ground.
Anakin is superior to Obi-Wan in both aspects: the Force and saber abilities.
The reason he lost has been explained over and over and over again, to the point that repeating it is completely redundant. He lost because Obi-Wan had a level-head, more experience, knew Anakin's personality, and - best of all - was the granddaddy of lightsaber defense.
As for the Sidious and Yoda debate, you know where I stand on that, and I took the time to write a "novel" on par with Sama's here, to explain it.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Eh you can say that Anakin>Obiwan on fair ground, but that wasn't the case.
What was the case then?
It was more like Anakin=Obiwan on fair ground,
And you figure this how exactly?
and MAYBE after a long time Anakin would win, but he was getting the kicks in as much as Obiwan,
Show me where Obi-Wan was "getting the kicks in as much as Obi-Wan". Because, when I saw it, I saw Anakin whooping the Soresu master's ass with a flurry of melee attacks.
I've made the list. Obi-Wan tripped Anakin once. Anakin got at least seven more powerful and draining moves on Obi-Wan.
And in the middle of the fight, Obi-Wan was breathing hard while Anakin was fine. This isn't exactly an end all point, because you can argue it was a ploy by Obi-Wan to trick Anakin, but really - why was Obi-Wan doing everything in his power to get away from Anakin? He kept drawing the fight away, getting onto obstacles, and finally he was able to capture the high ground.
Also keep in mind he was facing an Anakin, who while was a more powerful incarnation, wasn't thinking clearly whatsoever, and let his arrogance get the best of him (which differs from Anakin in the beginning of the movie who was able to utilize his anger, and still keep relatively stable). Still though, if it was Anakin with all that - if they fought where Darth Maul first confronted Qui-Gon, I'd say Anakin would win, and it wouldn't last seven minutes.
I don't get it are you using Anakin's hot headed attitude for his downfall against obiwan or his cockiness? Perhaps that was the case or perhaps as it was stated, Obiwan knew Anakin best. And I counted 2-3 kicks for Obiwan and 4 for Anakin, I don't know where you got 7. The fight was a stalemate on fair ground Soma, although at the end it looked like Anakin was gettng the upper hand.. But he lost.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I don't get it are you using Anakin's hot headed attitude for his downfall against obiwan or his cockiness? Perhaps that was the case or perhaps as it was stated, Obiwan knew Anakin best.
It was a multitude of things. His fall to the Darkside, his anger, Obi-Wan being his master, Obi-Wan being a defensive swordsman, among a few other things.
And I counted 2-3 kicks for Obiwan and 4 for Anakin, I don't know where you got 7.
1.) Kicks him square in the chest.
2.) Dragon Sleeper.
3.) Dropkick.
4.) Another kick.
5.) Knocks Kenobi around.
6.) Yet another kick dead in the face.
Six actually, watch the clip on youtube.com or something.
The fight was a stalemate on fair ground Soma, although at the end it looked like Anakin was gettng the upper hand.. But he lost.
I personally don't view the fight as such, but whatever. The way I view it was Obi-Wan prolonging the fight, and not doing much else. Anakin wasn't tiring, he was never put in a position that he could've actually been killed in (when he was lying on the table maybe, but since he was able to block it - I really don't consider it such). The only time Kenobi really did anything was when he dismembered Anakin, only after securing the high ground.
Originally posted by balanced_blade
didnt obi wan begin using ataru again in the fight(not disagreeing just wonderin)
No. At least, I've never heard any mention of that. I doubt he would considering he was on the defensive the entire time, and also considering he gave that form up more than ten years prior to the fight.
Ataru is offensive, and if Obi-Wan would've switched up he would've been tooled (assuming you're talking about the Anakin/Obi-Wan fight). Really though, Soresu is the only thing that saved him from death.
Hm, I seem to remember Anakin not going for the killing blow, therefore your entire situation - much like your entire argument - falls apart.
Sure he didn't go for the killing blow, but during the battle, he gave in to anger and rage. For the sake of the battle, he was allowed to cut Dooku anywhere, whereas Dooku was restricted to disabling Anakin without killing or even severly wounding.
You are not understanding anything at all. If Sidious wanted Dooku to try his hardest then he would have just said kill Anakin instead of spare his life. Dooku was under the impression that throughout the entire battle he would not have to try his hardest.
Taking that in hand, he was told to give it his all by none other than...his commanding officer, Darth Leatherface, and when he tells you to do something you better f*cking do it.
If Sidious wanted Dooku to do his best, then he would have allowed Dooku to kill Anakin. Is that so hard for you to understand? He was denied the oppurtunity for any devastating strokes. Anakin actually had the option of hitting Dooku with his lightsaber, Dooku only had the option of somehow disabling Anakin without wounding him.
I'll reply to this scenario with a word I'm fond of - "No".
And I reply with - "Yes." 🤣
Really? Is that why he said, and I quote, "I shouldn't."
Anakin's intent to kill suraced during the battle . When he said I shouldn't it was a second thought, his attempt to hold on to the Jedi ideals. Anakin gave in to anger and for that battle, he did want to kill, and would not face any repercussions if he did so. Dooku on the other hand, was forced not to, hence could not fight to his maximum capabilities.
He was told to fight.
He was told to fight, but not to kill. Meaning, he was placed at disadvantage right from the get go. Still can't dispute this ?
And? This somehow means he should disobey commands, and not test Anakin's full strength? Nope.
The command was not to kill Anakin. So his attacks were obviously not as effective.
Why would Palpatine even need to step in if Dooku is better? Why would Anakin gain the upper hand? Why would the thought even be?
Can you even understand the fact that Anakin had the benefit of striking Dooku wherever he wanted? In the battle, Anakin was given the advantage of full knowledge that even should he kill his opponent, it wouldn't matter.
For Dooku if he killed Anakin, oh yeah. It mattered.
If he really was testing his strength, he could duel at full skill and see how good he is. And, according to *you*, Dooku is better; therefore Dooku losing wouldn't be a factor, or even a thought for that matter
I mean he dispatched Obi-Wan oh-so easily, so why not Anakin?Wait, don't answer that. I forgot I already know the answer: because Anakin > Dooku.
Did the idea of varying degrees of superiority strike you while you typed this garbage? Consider two sword masters, one of which is marginally better, and they are attack each other. The swordsmen who is not permitted to kill his opponent would be at the bigger disadvantage, EVEN IF he were better.
And Force lightning has been shown to be blocked by a less skilled Kenobi.
When has Anakin shown the ability to defend against lightning? You assume since Obi Wan (who was specialized more in defence) defended against lightning automatically means that Anakin can defend against it as well? Not quite.
As well, why would he want the weaker apprentice when the Jedi Purge was in a few days? Why would he just let Anakin kill Dooku if he was weaker? He wouldn't.
Because, Anakin had far more potential than Dooku.
About the Jedi purge, most of the Jedi were not EVEN killed by Anakin. If you remember, the majority of Jedi were gunned down. I believe it was Cin Drallig who was killed by Anakin, defending some younglings, (from what I have heard). As you can see, removing the Jedi was not dependant on the apprentice at all. It was more a consequence of being ambushed by clone troopers
Noticed how they were all gunned down or shot down. Palpatine was more interested in Anakin's future potential, not how many Jedi he could kill at the purge.
Logic > you
Right, being told to not kill your opponent would give you an advantage in a fight. Very logical 🙄
So was Anakin. He's a JEDI, ya' know those "Upholders of the Peace", and all that jazz.
Which is precisely why he has given in to anger on NUMEROUS occasions. 😉 He was allowed any harmful or killing stroke. It would be convenient if Dooku lived, because it goes hand in hand with the Jedi code of not killing anyone. During that battle, Anakin was angry. He wanted to kill. Dooku wasn't allowed to.
He had a better fight with Maul alone than working as a team. That reminds me of a scene in ROTS...
If I recall, Obi Wan only fared so well because he watched his master get butchered. Nonetheless, Maul subdued him. It was Maul's arrogance that led to his defeat, not Obi Wan. If he dueled Maul in a calm state of mind without Qui Gon around, he would be hopelessly slaughtered.
So my manga loving geek, that brings me to point that Dooku defended against BOTH Anakin and Obi Wan rather easily.
Anyways, I don't see how they had "time to analyze his attacks and maneuvers", or actually why they even would. Did they know they'd face him in the future? No.
They had the benefit of seeing Dooku in combat. Dooku did not have the benefit of seeing how much they improved. I can see which side had the tactical advantage.
Why would Sidious need to "jump to the rescue" if Dooku is superior?
Wow. Dooku is superiour but you are ignoring all the other variables.
1. He was not allowed to kill or severly handicap Anakin
2. Anakin was was permitted to do serious damage to Dooku. He had more "freedom" in his attacks
The point of the battle was, you guessed it! Test Anakin. If Dooku were allowed to kill Anakin, then the Count would be fighting to the best of his abilities. Anakin was fighting with the intent to kill, detain if the circumstances were convenient and was led to that situation because Dooku was not fighting at his best. Sidious basically says "You are not allowed to kill him, so yes you are at a disadvantage. But don't worry, I'll be there to help you. You just test Skywalker. By the way, if you kill him, you're dead"
zephiel7 you are completely right. Dooku was at a major disadvantage from the get go yet you all still think that because Anakin won he is better. Some very good logic there 🙄
Anakin bet Dooku in ROTS. Does this mean Anakin is better than Dooku? Absolutely not. The circumstances were highly in Anakin the whole fight. One blatantly obvious point is that it was two on one. Two fit young men on an 80 year old. Now Dooku used up alot of his energy eliminating Obi-Wan but still had Anakin left to beat. This is hardly fair for our beloved Count. Anakin then used this to his advantage and physically grabbed Dooku and defeated him. Also we didnt see Dooku perform a force attack on Skywalker once eg force lightning. This again tips the scales in Anakins favor. So the point is Anakin won - but this does not make him the better duellist. It was an extremely biased battle and under different circumstances (Dooku being allowed to kill) then the Count would pwn.
Originally posted by Rampant ox zephiel7 you are completely right. Dooku was at a major disadvantage from the get go yet you all still think that because Anakin won he is better. Some very good logic there 🙄
Major disadvantage? What, he didn't have his martini bottle with him? His mother wasn't there to cheer him on?
Anakin bet Dooku in ROTS. Does this mean Anakin is better than Dooku? Absolutely not.
Somewhat true. I'm a firm believer of the "any given sunday" rule.
The circumstances were highly in Anakin the whole fight. One blatantly obvious point is that it was two on one.
Two on one? LMAO! So that means it was automatically disadvantaged for Dooku? So, Kenobi and Jinn should have beaten Maul? Or Anakin and Kenobi should have beaten Dooku? WTF?
Two fit young men on an 80 year old.
ROFL. Bullshit, Dooku was able to take Kenobi and Anakin's (robot hand, remember) overhand swings with two hands; with one hand. The force can be used to increase strength, and it was made fairly clear that Dooku wasn't physically inferior to either of them in that fight. In fact, he kicked Skywalker backwards about six foot into a wall.
Now Dooku used up alot of his energy eliminating Obi-Wan but still had Anakin left to beat. This is hardly fair for our beloved Count.
Lots of energy? ROFL, they duel for about thirty seconds and then Dooku kicks Anakin aside and tosses Kenobi underneath a metal platform. Kenobi got pwned faster than Chuck Norris can eat babies.
Anakin then used this to his advantage and physically grabbed Dooku and defeated him.
True, but Dooku wasn't tired out by taking down Kenobi.
Also we didnt see Dooku perform a force attack on Skywalker once eg force lightning. This again tips the scales in Anakins favor.
True to some extent, yes.
So the point is Anakin won - but this does not make him the better duellist. It was an extremely biased battle and under different circumstances (Dooku being allowed to kill) then the Count would pwn.
Hmm, whilst perhaps Dooku could have taken down Anakin with the force, Dooku did lost the fight. It wasn't an extremely biased battle either. To be completely honest, you're an idiotic fanboy with an intelligence comparable to a brain dead gnat.
Originally posted by Swirly Girl
[B]Major disadvantage? What, he didn't have his martini bottle with him? His mother wasn't there to cheer him on?
Wasnt allowed to kill, two on one, thought he would be rescued, physically inferior, didnt use the force on Anakin. Sounds like he was disadvantaged to me.
Two on one? LMAO! So that means it was automatically disadvantaged for Dooku? So, Kenobi and Jinn should have beaten Maul? Or Anakin and Kenobi should have beaten Dooku? WTF?
I am not sure what your point is. Kenobi and Jinn did beat Maul, Kenobi and Skywalker did beat Dooku. I am starting to see a trend. THE OUTNUMBERED PERSON LOSES!!!
ROFL. Bullshit, Dooku was able to take Kenobi and Anakin's (robot hand, remember) overhand swings with two hands; with one hand.
He did. Thats no easy feet to do for a man of his age. It must have taken alot out of him. Another words - this must have used up a fair amount of his energy.
The force can be used to increase strength, and it was made fairly clear that Dooku wasn't physically inferior to either of them in that fight. In fact, he kicked Skywalker backwards about six foot into a wall.
Again, did it ever cross your mind that all this was using energy? Dooku is fitter than your average 80 year old, but still nowhere near physically capable to take on two fitter young men at the same time.
Lots of energy? ROFL, they duel for about thirty seconds and then Dooku kicks Anakin aside and tosses Kenobi underneath a metal platform. Kenobi got pwned faster than Chuck Norris can eat babies.
Hahaha. The Chuck Norris comment amuses me so I will just say 'see above'.
True, but Dooku wasn't tired out by taking down Kenobi.
You dont know that but it is very logical to assume he was.
Hmm, whilst perhaps Dooku could have taken down Anakin with the force, Dooku did lost the fight. It wasn't an extremely biased battle either.
Actually it was. See my first comment for further details.
To be completely honest, you're an idiotic fanboy with an intelligence comparable to a brain dead gnat.
Why must you use foolish insults in a perfectly friendly debate? To me all this proves is that you have nothing better to say, thus ending this argument.
Originally posted by kamikz
Rampant, Dooku was allowed to kill.
I disagree.
"Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."
It says plainly there that Dooku was merely testing Anakin, not killing him. And Dooku is very loyal to his master, he would not have disobeyed.
It doesn't say anything about holding back.... It says "fighting" and it says "testing" but nothing about holding back or not killing, Palpatine would have as he said, stopped the fight if Anakin lost, apparently he never had to.....
And the novelization describes Dooku thinking, "it was time to kill". This doesn't contradict the movie so....