Revan vs. Anakin

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Wasnt allowed to kill, two on one, thought he would be rescued, physically inferior, didnt use the force on Anakin. Sounds like he was disadvantaged to me.

Wasn't allowed to kill? Yes, he was. The entire thing was orchestrated by Palpatine to see if Anakin was good enough to become his apprentice. Lucas has confirmed this and the fact that Dooku had no knowledge whatsoever of the fight.

Thought he would be rescued? WTF? I don't get how that's relevant at all. Physically inferior? He can use the force to aid his strength.

I am not sure what your point is. Kenobi and Jinn did beat Maul, Kenobi and Skywalker did beat Dooku. I am starting to see a trend. THE OUTNUMBERED PERSON LOSES!!!

No, Maul defeated Jinn, and tossed Kenobi off into a reactor core. Kenobi got lucky, because Maul got arrogant. Simple, see? And in AOTC, Dooku defeats the two duelists.

He did. Thats no easy feet to do for a man of his age. It must have taken alot out of him. Another words - this must have used up a fair amount of his energy.

Assumptions. What proof do you have of this? It's unsubstantiated.

Again, did it ever cross your mind that all this was using energy? Dooku is fitter than your average 80 year old, but still nowhere near physically capable to take on two fitter young men at the same time.

No, but you don't seem to have taken into account that fact that Dooku uses the force to strengthen himself. Case point and study; the part where he blocks both of their overhead swings with one hand.

You dont know that but it is very logical to assume he was.

Why? He's dueling like lightning in a few seconds with Anakin. He doesn't display any exertion on his face either.

Actually it was. See my first comment for further details.

No. I've answered this in my response on this rebutal. Dooku wasn't informed of the trial, thus making that point moot. Dooku could use the force to make himself more powerful; thus making that other point moot. Whilst I do believe he could have won if he'd just levitated Anakin instead, you're taking it to extremes. And he was allowed to kill! Get that into your skull, he was!

Why must you use foolish insults in a perfectly friendly debate? To me all this proves is that you have nothing better to say, thus ending this argument.

You know what? STFU, Rampant Ox. Lying fanboys can't save Dooku.

My God people, Anakin bet Dooku. Fin. Anyway, this isn't about that, so drop it. Anakin vs. Revan! Okay?

What are these mystical abilities that puts Revan over Anakin? Name some.

What mystical abilities? I was describing feats that put Revan above the entire PT council, much less Anakin. How many times do I have to explain that Revan was the most powerful while he was alive, and he defeated Malak(who AGAIN would probably be equal to Dooku), who was powered by the SF, and 8+ Jedi. That is indeed a testament of his power. Not to mention the force lightning the Rakata saw. I really hate repeating myself here, but Anakin doesn't stand much chance against him. Yoda and Sidious would be a better match for him.

how many times do I have to explain that Revan was the most powerful while he was alive, and he defeated Malak(who AGAIN would probably be equal to Dooku),

The key words being probably equal to Dooku. There's not really evidence to maintain that Malak was more powerful than Dooku, the man who had spent fourty years mastering Makashi; the "ultimate refinement of lightsabre combat."

who was powered by the SF, and 8+ Jedi.

Powered by the Star Forge? Yes. Eight Jedi? No. That's little more than a game mechanic, considering that's the maximum requirement to defeat Malak; whereas twice is the minimum amount.

How do you know what the maximum and minimum required amounts to defeat Malak were exactly? You don't, right. So Revan defeated a nearly invincible Malak. What exactly did Anakin do? Oh he beat Dooku, wonderful. You also forget that Malak was the second best in the order of thousands of Jedi and Sith, and this was even without the SF.

Quotes from someone saying he was nearly invincible is nothing really, maybe it was for those people, or maybe that was just that persons point of view.

Originally posted by kamikz
It doesn't say anything about holding back.... It says "fighting" and it says "testing" but nothing about holding back or not killing, Palpatine would have as he said, stopped the fight if Anakin lost, apparently he never had to.....

And the novelization describes Dooku thinking, "it was time to kill". This doesn't contradict the movie so....

It says, "If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready." It does not say anything about Dooku being allowed to kill his opponent.

If Palpatine wanted them both to fight at their peaks, he would have said "go ahead and kill young Skywalker."

No, he didn't say that he would kill him, but he didn't say he would go easy on him either. It was not Dooku's job to look how Skywalker was doing, it was Palpatine. If Palpatine saw that Anakin lost he would have stopped the fight, but apparently that never happened. How would they prove that Anakin was not worthy if Dooku was not even trying?

[B]No, he didn't say that he would kill him, but he didn't say he would go easy on him either.

But you agree that Dooku was not trying to kill Skywalker? That itself is a big DISADVANTAGE on Dooku's part.

If Palpatine saw that Anakin lost he would have stopped the fight, but apparently that never happened. ?

"Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."

Where in this bloody quote does it say anything about Palpatine jumping in to protect Anakin? That would be a VERY big surprise to Kenobi and Anakin if Palpatine jumped in with a red lightsaber and deflected Dooku's killing stroke.

How would they prove that Anakin was not worthy if Dooku was not even trying

They could assess how much Skywalker has grown. Whether he would last LONGER against Dooku, not necessarily whether Skywalker could kill Dooku. Dooku never knew that Palpatine would betray him.

Rampant brings up a worthy point though. Dooku had to expend the extra energy of fighting two fully trained Jedi Knights both at once, and then continue the battle without the advantage of striking in dangerous positions on Skywalker's body. The whole fatigue factor wasn't on his side.

Ok how can Dooku get the better of him if he is not trying to? Dooku is never told in that bloody quote to go easy on Skywalker, he is told to test/fight Anakin, NEVER does it say that Dooku should go easy on him. Palpatine would see that Dooku was about to win, Dooku would probably figure so much himself, and thus Palpatine would TELL him to stop (either through the force or loud), or Dooku would simply do so himself, but apparently they never got to that point where Dooku needed to slow down, because he was already defeated. If Dooku was feeling that he was going down, and that Anakin had grown much in power, why go easy BEFORE he even has a chance of winning? Wouldn't Dooku at that point fight hard then realise that Anakin was not good enough, or would he continue to go easy when he was at the brink of destruction?

Also, wasn't that the quote made for the script? In the commentary on the ROTS DVD he says that Dooku was just supposed to fight Anakin, he didn't know anything else. Since the later sources contradicts the older, and since the movie wasn't even done at that point, we should stand by that quote, not the other one.....

Originally posted by zephiel7
But you agree that Dooku was not trying to kill Skywalker? That itself is a big DISADVANTAGE on Dooku's part.

Alright. Well, you see, there's this thing I like to call "BEING A JEDI". You know, what Anakin was at that point. Anakin even said "I shouldn't" when he had Dooku at his mercy. To add to the factor, Anakin believed that Mace shouldn't strike Palpatine down saying "But it's not the Jedi way!".

"Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."

Okay, you can stop posting my quote from The Making of ROTS three hundred times.

Where in this bloody quote does it say anything about Palpatine jumping in to protect Anakin? That would be a VERY big surprise to Kenobi and Anakin if Palpatine jumped in with a red lightsaber and deflected Dooku's killing stroke.

And then easily countered with - why would Dooku losing be a thought if he's firmly superior.

They could assess how much Skywalker has grown. Whether he would last LONGER against Dooku, not necessarily whether Skywalker could kill Dooku. Dooku never knew that Palpatine would betray him.

EDIT. Not really, if Dooku lowered his standards - then how can Palpatine assess how good Anakin is against his current padawan? I mean, if you go with this scenario that Dooku "lowered himself" then Anakin beat a lowered Dooku. Tell me, how does that speak for Anakin's ability?

Rampant brings up a worthy point though. Dooku had to expend the extra energy of fighting two fully trained Jedi Knights both at once, and then continue the battle without the advantage of striking in dangerous positions on Skywalker's body. The whole fatigue factor wasn't on his side.

Oh please, extra energy? Dooku wasn't tiring, and it was hardly what I call "extra energy" considering what we saw in AOTC: First, a Force attack on Anakin, next dueling Kenobi, then dueling Anakin, finally followed up by dueling Yoda, and he was still able to fight long against Yoda without getting tired.

And, where does he say he can't take off a body part? Why not cut off Anakin's already mechanical hand?

Let's go over the facts, logic, and some questions you'd need to answer - not your interpretations:

1.) From the ROTS movie/script:

The hologram of Sidious talks to GRIEVOUS about the death of Count Dooku.

GENERAL GRIEVOUS: But the loss of Count Dooku?

DARTH SlDIOUS: His death was a necessary loss, which will ensure our victory. Soon I will have a new apprentice . . . one far younger and more powerful than Lord Tyranus.

Seems even Sidious, admits that Dooku's loss was nothing due to the fact Anakin is more powerful.

2.) The Jedi Purge was a few days away so why would Palpatine let Dooku (who to *you* is the stronger) get killed?

3.) George Lucas himself - you know good ol' GL, the damn creator of what we're debating right now even states this, "Dooku thinks he's just going to fight him".

Oh, and just so you know - GL's words trump everything you have to say on any matter of Star Wars.

4.) The Making of ROTS says if Anakin gets the best of Dooku - Palpatine will save Dooku. Keywords: "Best of."

Answer me this, why would Anakin get "the best of" Dooku at all? Why would Palpatine have to jump in at all? Why would any of that be a thought at all, if Dooku is superior to Anakin?

Also notice it doesn't say "if anything goes wrong, Palpatine will save the day", but if Anakin beats Dooku - like he did.

5.) The New Essential Chronology says that Dooku fought for his life. And if that's not giving it your all, I don't know what is.

6.) The ROTS Novelization states that both Dooku and Anakin gave it their all.

7.) In LOE [apparently] Dooku is told to fight with the best of his ability.

Add all those together, and it's clear Anakin is superior to Dooku. Also that he beat Dooku fairly.

Now, if you want to go ahead and counter/answer those seven things, and when you come up with something viable explanation I'll submit Dooku > Anakin. But I just don't see that happening.

Good lord, why is this Anakin>Dooku thing still going on? The entire storyline of KOTOR displayed Revan's power, he was stated in the game as being "Immensily powerful in the force". Now unless you consider the storyline a non canon source as well as the characters, then Revan's power is clear and superior in comparison to the PT Jedi.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Good lord, why is this Anakin>Dooku thing still going on?

Because apparently no one will accept it. It was ended, but still I guess facts, quotes, sources, GL himself isn't enough. Anyways...

The entire storyline of KOTOR displayed Revan's power,

Give some examples. How did it display his power? He beat Mandalore? So, I guess Ulic > all because he did the same.

he was stated in the game as being "Immensily powerful in the force".

And what's Anakin? "Immensly stupid in the Force"? You really think Anakin was never described as "powerful"?

Now unless you consider the storyline a non canon source as well as the characters, then Revan's power is clear and superior in comparison to the PT Jedi.

You don't understand. That's all you SAY. You say "storyline, Malak, etc." - please give exact references of this. That's how you make an actual argument. Not just one (parading his victory over Malak around), but give actual quotes, scenarios, and the like.

Revan's superior to Sidious, and Yoda? Doubt that. Maybe Coleman Trebor.

Seriously though, he's powerful no doubt and could contend with the top tier of the PT, and beat some of them, but give some actual stuff and not say "check the storyline".

And quotes from characters? You have Kreia, a bias hag. You have the Jedi Council, who acknowledge his power, but they don't make it seem like he's the ultima-mega-super god of Star Wars. Oh, and Republic soldiers. Yeah...

Kreia wasn't in KOTOR 1. Me parading around the entire SF storyline is exactly what puts him above Anakin and possibly ROTS Sidious and Yoda. I don't know the EXACT quotes but I can give you the scenes where those quotes are made. Play the Dantooine level again, and then the last level when they are on the Star Forge. Of course Anakin was described as powerful but his power had to do more with potential than anything else, in which he failed. Revan was described as immensily powerful after the fact that he was solely responsible for the defeat of Mandalorians, and became even MORE powerful when he turned back to the light side. If you want more scenarios just ask, I'll tell you which levels to play, which display his superiority. I don't think Revan is a God by any means but he is powerful enough to take anybody in the PT era.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Kreia wasn't in KOTOR 1.

...Okay? I'm saying she's one of the main people that flaunts and boasts Revan's power. Even though she's in K2. I'd consider her Revan's #1 fan.

Me parading around the entire SF storyline is exactly what puts him above Anakin and possibly ROTS Sidious and Yoda.

So lemme' get this straight. Because he beat Malak, he is > than everyone in the PT? You've yet to amplify the powers of the Star Forge.

As well, the events that happened during the match are unknown. We can assume he beat Malak using a lightsaber, I'll give you that; because of Duron Qel-Droma's vision. But, the match could've been won within a hair, the battle was "epic" afterall. And Yoda and Sidious > Malak, so I don't see how Revan is superior to everyone of the PT era. On top of that Malak might even be = to Dooku. There was a Dooku vs. Malak thread, and a lot of it was geared towards that IIRC.

I don't know the EXACT quotes but I can give you the scenes where those quotes are made. Play the Dantooine level again, and then the last level when they are on the Star Forge.

Huh? I'm not searching these up myself. It's your job to provide what they are. There's like a multitude of quotes.

Of course Anakin was described as powerful but his power had to do more with potential than anything else, in which he failed.

You're right, however, his power didn't just have to do with his potential. There's some that had to do with his current abilities.

Revan was described as immensily powerful after the fact that he was solely responsible for the defeat of Mandalorians,

Okay? He's powerful because he was able to recruit the Jedi to fight alongside him? Or because he deployed great tactics, and strategy during war? What does that have to do with his power? It speaks volumes for his leaderships, and brains - but the only real power he displayed was defeating Mandalore. Which alone does not put him above Anakin, nor the other top tier PT combatants.

and became even MORE powerful when he turned back to the light side. If you want more scenarios just ask, I'll tell you which levels to play, which display his superiority.

Just tell me, where it's canonical that his superiority was displayed? Better pit: what events - that are canon - happened that show his 1337ness.

I don't think Revan is a God by any means but he is powerful enough to take anybody in the PT era.

Then apparently you do think of him as a god, because Yoda is the strongest Jedi up to the point (something like "the greatest foe the darkness has ever known", referring up to that era). And Yoda > Sidious only by a hair I'd say.

I don't know Dooku's ridiculous quote or opinion, but that's what it was in Dark Rendezvous. What makes you think Yoda and Sidious>Revan? Again, Malak by himself was the second greatest in the order and among thousands of Sith and Jedi, in a MORE martial period where they were all warriors. Yoda and Sidious were the most powerful in a peaceful time, and then obviously during the clone war. And as I see it, the Civil War>Clone war in terms of magnitude, power, etc.. I don't really know why I added that but it was to prove that the Jedi of that time were more powerful and constantly fighting. You've listed Anakin's feats but how do they display as much power as what Revan did with Malak? And of course you seem to think defeating Mandalore is easy, while it was a hard battle for even Qel Droma. Not to mention Revan, in a more martial time with thousands more of Jedi and Sith, had absolutely no Equal, while Anakin wasn't #1, or #2 in his time of less powerful Jedi who haven't experienced a lifetime of fighting. If you are going to compare anybody to Revan, use ROTS Sidious and Yoda, and that is at their BEST. Unless of course you think PT Jedi>Ancient Jedi..

Anakin<Dooku at the time of their duel. Dooku had been playing easy on Anakin, trying piss him off, and then BAM holy shit Anakin's pissed and it's too late in the duel for a comeback from Dookmeister...

However, Anakin could have easily surpassed Dooku within a few months or year...or something.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
How do you know what the maximum and minimum required amounts to defeat Malak were exactly?

I don't. And if you actually read my post, I didn't profess to know the amount of times that Revan faced Malak's rejuvenated self. The entire post was in objection to you professing that Revan faced Malak eight times.

You don't, right. So Revan defeated a nearly invincible Malak.

I'm not arguing that Anakin could defeat Revan. But you've based your entire argument on a flawed premise. So, STFU.

What exactly did Anakin do? Oh he beat Dooku, wonderful.

. . . When Dooku happened to be one of the most powerful beings in the galaxy? And on the same power level as people like Yoda and Darth Sidious?

You also forget that Malak was the second best in the order of thousands of Jedi and Sith, and this was even without the SF.

Look, I can play that game. Dooku was one of the greatest Jedi in the order, and the second greatest Sith in the galaxy. And this was even without his lightsabre!

🙄

Ha!

Motoko + Swirly Girl = Tag-team of pwnage.

A feminine one at that. 😱