Originally posted by Lightsnake
Why would comparing it to another version be senseless? Palpatine is still quite the powerhousen by the OT, or even ROTS given his ability to square off with Yoda...hell, Dan cited his ability to take Yoda on as a point in his favor as the strongest.
Because if you want to find out who is the strongest Sith Lord you don't take a weaker version of Sith Lord X and compare it to the strongest version of Sith Lord Y.
Wasn't Joruus just a normal clone? It was force sensitive because of the original Jorus...and Palpatine didn't 'fight' Brand...he beat him in a single blast. I'm saying both Tavion and Brand diedshortly after their possession, and Brand was also killed by the corruption brought about by Palpatine's spirit.
No. Joruus and Luuke were both results of the cloning technology Sidious himself used.
I'm just bringing up the idea that the energy needed to call Ragnos back is related to ragnos's age rather than power.
Who did ever say that the energy needed to call Ragnos back is related to his power ?
Ok, there is NO proof that vision of a millenia past was thanks to Ragnos and not from the amulets-which summoned him and the Sith Lords...and Ragnos was not the only Sith present,
Don't you think that this is somehow...dumb ? Ragnos created the amulets to do exactly what they did. As I already said: You can't seperated the creations of a force user from his actual power.
Ragnos was already back before Tavion summoned him apparently..why wouldn't the scepter boost him? If it was 'calling him back', Ragnos would've been ressurected in body as well as spirit.
And again: The mere fact that Ragnos decided to take over Tavion for battle proofs that his spirit form was nothing compared to him alive. He wouldn't take over Tavion if he was able to fight better or equally good in his spirit form. As I said: Unless you wan't to argue that Tavion was more powerful than the living Ragnos it doesn't make sense to argue the power of his spirit there.
Ok, before Nihilius, when force Drain common knowledge to the Jedi? Since according to the DSB, the Power of the Jedi and Vader: The ultimate guide if memory serves, the Jedi developed techniques to block formely unblockable Sith techniques...add that to that we know Yoda developed or learned defenses against all of the Dark Side powers...And I'm sorry, Nai, but Kun's brotherhood saw very little action...yes, they appeared over Yavin and directed their powers, but if memory serves not a single Jedi went to the surface and actually battled Kun's servants and creatures...that's the closest most got to actually fighting Sith until the Teta fight at least.
Dude. I was talking about the Council Members that Kreia killed. And yes...the got their "action" when Revan (who knew about Malachor) attacked the Republic and they got even more "action" when they were hunted by Sith assassins + Nihilus + Sion after the Jedi Civil War. Now please tell me why somebody would develop a defence against a technique that was basically exterminated from the Galaxy when nobody did manage to invent a defence against it while it was still "in use".
You got another way to destroy a spirit? The thing is, he never used it against a fully accomplished Jedi master like Yoda or Mace or a Sith Lord like Sadow or Sidious...if he fired a blast at Sadow, I really doubt it'd kill Sadow...and considering Sidious is able to fire beams from his hands that rip holes in people in his weakest state...
What does the one thing have to do with the other ? I know it's unlikely that Kun will use the amulets in a fight - hell, if I remember correctly I did write the same stuff some hours ago. The point is that you postulated an "inability" from Kun to do it while I think it's up to his choice if he does so or not.
Are we that without tavion spedning who knows how long gathering up energy, that scepter is nnot as powerful? And even if we never see Palpatine using his artifacts, we know he has them and can use them in battle. If he's allowed that scepter, then we're going to allow Palpatine everything he wants as well, including the numerous deadly sith items he has, and there's the fact Palpatine can instantly reach out into the force and kill ragnos with his instakill.
My, my, my...
If we compare a NAVY S.E.A.L to a member of a German SEK member and try to determine who would win a shoot-out. Do we need to give the German SEK member the S.E.A.Ls equipment because technically he's able to get it ?
And since when is it a "fact" that Palpatine can reach out into the force and kill Ragnos instantly, huh ? Then it's also a "fact" that Ragnos will drain Sidious before Sidious can even think about acting.
And besides, what is Ragnos going to do with the scepter? It takes some time to absorb the force and the blasts aren't exactly fatal...not to mention Ragnos casually discards the scepter in favor of his sword. And never mind how fragile that damn scepter is
Did I already answer this by saying that I'm talking about a fully charged up sceptre instead of a completely discharged one that Ragnos dropped to use his sword ? Meh...
Granted, though next to dE Palaptine, Tom referred to Palp as a delusional adept.
I know that much. Sidious took special cares of his clones aside from technology though.
Erm...the thing is, though, we don't see Ragnos's amulets...we just see the mate amulets join together and the ancient Sith are called...I don't think the amulets were 'made' to do that.
Him possessing Tavion could be for a few reasons...he couldn't harm Jacen in spirit form, this's true.
The difference is, the council members weren't facing Force Drain until Nihilius...since the rebuilders of the Order actually experienced Nihilus, they'd have devoted some studies to a defense...even if it was unlikely another wound'd appear, I doubt the Jedi'd allow themselves to ever be defenseless against such a thing again.
Nai, I never said Kun can't use the amulets again: I said he probably wouldn't and that there's no guarantee they'd tear through a Jedi master like they did the wyrm.
The difference is, Sidious'd know how to use them...he has holocrons, the dark side and the ancients themselves were giving him some guidance. And the problem is: Sidious knows the drain too...and considering he can activate his instakill quick as thought and only taught Luke how to block it...The problem is Ragnos has no knowledge of the technique, let alone defense. And considering it's instantaneous...
Okay then, why didn't Ragnos drain Jaden with the Force? And why would ragnos's scepter in ancient times be 'fully charged?'
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Granted, though next to dE Palaptine, Tom referred to Palp as a delusional adept.I know that much. Sidious took special cares of his clones aside from technology though.
Erm...the thing is, though, we don't see Ragnos's amulets...we just see the mate amulets join together and the ancient Sith are called...I don't think the amulets were 'made' to do that.
Him possessing Tavion could be for a few reasons...he couldn't harm Jacen in spirit form, this's true.
The difference is, the council members weren't facing Force Drain until Nihilius...since the rebuilders of the Order actually experienced Nihilus, they'd have devoted some studies to a defense...even if it was unlikely another wound'd appear, I doubt the Jedi'd allow themselves to ever be defenseless against such a thing again.
Nai, I never said Kun can't use the amulets again: I said he probably wouldn't and that there's no guarantee they'd tear through a Jedi master like they did the wyrm.
The difference is, Sidious'd know how to use them...he has holocrons, the dark side and the ancients themselves were giving him some guidance. And the problem is: Sidious knows the drain too...and considering he can activate his instakill quick as thought and only taught Luke how to block it...The problem is Ragnos has no knowledge of the technique, let alone defense. And considering it's instantaneous...
Okay then, why didn't Ragnos drain Jaden with the Force? And why would ragnos's scepter in ancient times be 'fully charged?'
Lightsnake, you don't think the amulets were meant to do that? Why don't you read the last 5 pages of DLOTS, because it specifically states the amulets are meant to do JUST THAT. And Nai is right, if they couldn't develop a defense WHILE fighting this evil, its illogical to think they'll develop it later on when they don't even know about it or have seen it in action. Now, there's no guarantee that the amulet will tear through a Jedi? I didn't know a sith wyrm and a Jedi were made up of different components. Really lightsnake you're too much.. And you have no proof that Sidious would know how to use them except for your ridiculous "Sidious knows all" quote.. And for the last time, his instakill is theoretical since the only source is his cute little dark side compendium.
Nope, sorry, not theoretical. No proof. Stated he could do it there and the DE sourcebook so y'lose
. And considering Sidious's massive collection of Sith artifacts, holocrons AND dark Lord training...
Oh, unlike sith wyrms...Jedi have....the Force!
Sexy, really, just shut up. I'm putting you on ignore permanently now.
I just want to say one thing
You're an annoying, trolling brat, and I'm marking every last one of your posts I see from now on as I know they all contain insults
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nope, sorry, not theoretical. No proof. Stated he could do it there and the DE sourcebook so y'lose
. And considering Sidious's massive collection of Sith artifacts, holocrons AND dark Lord training...
Oh, unlike sith wyrms...Jedi have....the Force!Sexy, really, just shut up. I'm putting you on ignore permanently now.
I just want to say one thing
You're an annoying, trolling brat, and I'm marking every last one of your posts I see from now on as I know they all contain insults
Lets see, the one the ends up crying everytime he loses an argument, making insults, etc.. Can we say projection for the millionth time? You're nothing more than an immature little adolescent who can't accept logic over his little fantasy world. Your opinion means very little to me and i'm sure to others.. You don't know half of the crap you spew out, including certain vocabulary words "Troll". You need to take a breather from these forums as its ruining your life..
Now... Palpatine was never shown to use his instakill or whatever it's called, so by your logic it doesn't exist.. And as for his so called techniques and artifacts, where are they? It seems as though you like to provide retarded quotes when you lose an argument, and those quotes have no merit nor bearing on a versus thread.. And guess what, the sith amulet blast is NOT a force attack, so it doesn't matter who has the force! troll.
I don't think Ragnos owns all, there may be a few more powerful such as Nihilus, Sion, Sidious and Luke, and possibly Sadow. However he is pretty underrated here. I mean he was said to be the most powerful of the most powerful, and I do belive that the sith were the most powerful, their teachings made relative weakilings such as Tavion extremely powerful and lastly, while this is just a feeling, it seems to be hinted throughout the saga that the ancients were the most powerful. Anyway, he's definitely up there.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Granted, though next to dE Palaptine, Tom referred to Palp as a delusional adept.
I think you're talking about Kun. Veitch isn't actually the best source for information here since he pretty much hates what Anderson did to his characters, especially Ulic.
I know that much. Sidious took special cares of his clones aside from technology though.
Does it matter if the clones just appear weaker then the "original" ?
Erm...the thing is, though, we don't see Ragnos's amulets...we just see the mate amulets join together and the ancient Sith are called...I don't think the amulets were 'made' to do that.
"A time when Sith magic learned how to construct amulets to carry a message down through the centuries...a message of the reigning Dark Lord (Ragnos)" ~DLotS #6 narration when Ragnos appears.
Aside of this Ragnos himself says he had come because the amulets are joined now and that Ulic and Exar are "chosen" because they have chosen. Then he hands Kun the Dark Lord title and declares that Ulic will be Exar's apprentice - mentioning both names. And he places the marks on their foreheads.
So...the amulets were clearly created for the reason to carry that message through the centuries although they had other powers and since the message comes from Ragnos it's pretty likely that Ragnos did construct them. Aside of this we see basically every Sith Lord in GAotS wearing two amulets (one on each hand) so I don't see why Ragnos should be an exception.
Him possessing Tavion could be for a few reasons...he couldn't harm Jacen in spirit form, this's true.
And see this is the entire point. We've seen spirits like that of Kun or even Nadd able to affect the real world - even cause some damage to rather powerful force users (Nadd floored Vodo and helped Ommin to keep Arca as a prisoner / Kun attacked Luke's students and even killed one of them).
The difference is, the council members weren't facing Force Drain until Nihilius...since the rebuilders of the Order actually experienced Nihilus, they'd have devoted some studies to a defense...even if it was unlikely another wound'd appear, I doubt the Jedi'd allow themselves to ever be defenseless against such a thing again.
Oh yes. Let me just repeat it: The people who spent much of their lives facing Dark Jedi / Sith using the technique in a weaker form and the Sith assassins that are directly stated to use something similar (feeding from their targets) have never encountered the technique before Kreia killed them ?
And then the Jedi managed to "devote some studies" to develop a defence despite the fact that all people who had knowledge about this attack and the "source" for that knowledge (Malachor V) were canonically wiped from the Galaxy during the events of KotoR 2 ?
The difference is, Sidious'd know how to use them...he has holocrons, the dark side and the ancients themselves were giving him some guidance. And the problem is: Sidious knows the drain too...and considering he can activate his instakill quick as thought and only taught Luke how to block it...The problem is Ragnos has no knowledge of the technique, let alone defense. And considering it's instantaneous...
The funny fact is that if two opponents pull out instantkill attacks against which is no defence - they both die.
Aside of this you should maybe think about the fact that Sidious didn't pull abilities out of his ass. There's nothing like a "creatio ex nihilo" of force powers. Sidious developed something out of knowledge he received before - knowledge from the Ancient Sith.
Okay then, why didn't Ragnos drain Jaden with the Force? And why would ragnos's scepter in ancient times be 'fully charged?'
I've already answered the first question if you read through my comments on Ragnos spirit in this situation. And why would a weapon not be fully charged if their creator didn't have any reason to use it ?