Marka Ragnos versus Shimrra

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Even if it was based on the force, there are attacks that have proven to work on the Vong. For instance: Luke's green lightning. Sith magic could possibly work as well.

And your point is? We have more evidence, and better reasoning on our side than you do. In a debate, we would be the winner, even if something is not absolutely proven. Which never happens anyway.

Tom used Sids in his comic, but he isnt his creator. Only George Lucas has authority to make statements about Sidious and Yoda.

No it couldn't. Luke had reached the Vong's level of the Force, the Unifying Force...darksiders cannot do that.

Yes, you keep thinking that, GV. I believe we stated we think Shimrra'd lose.

Tom is liable to say if his creations are beneath the canon characters, there's obviousness involved

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nai, you know I'm advocating Shimrra'll lose...I'm just saying it'll hardly be a total bloodbath...

We don't know. Technically Luke being in top shape (so without fighting through an armor before) should have been able to turn this into a "bloodbath" on his own. As I said: Emerald Lightning - bye bye Shimrra.

and when it came to Vong, there wasn't foresight...Jaina mentions that when fighting the Ssi-Ruuk, And Mara when fighting Yomin, and Jacen when fighting Tsavong...he got a slight tingle of 'danger sense' and noted how unusual it was.

I wasn't talking about close range combat but about range weapon use.

Also, I'm not convinced Marka's pure physical strength whill hold against Shimrra's...and I think we know Yoda's force enhanced strength is better than just about anyone's now. I don't see ANYONE replicating that. Ever. Maybe Luke but that's it.

Well...
Take Anakin in ROTS as example. He managed to hold up himself, Sidious and Obi-Wan against gravitation with one hand. We can ignore Anakin's mechanical hand here since Dooku had already displayed to be able to "block" Anakin (+ Obi-Wan) with one hand.
Assuming that all have normal weight, Anakin with one hand is able to lift up 210 KG. 420 KG with both hands. And Dooku being able to parry a both handed swing from him one handed again should logically be able to double this (840 KG).

Yet Anakin and Dooku are both far away from having Ragnos sheer physical strength and given the fact that Ragnos was known for his fighting prowess, I guess he might exceed them both in the discipline of "force aided strength" too. I doubt that Shimrra can keep up with that. Aside of this you can possibly imagine now that Ragnos would be able to flick his Sith Sword around with mindblowing speed.

why do we assume Ragnos would go for destroying the arena? Isn't that just as detrimental to himself if he goes off with the scepter? And Ragnos's species favors mano a mano combat...they prefer sith swords because they like to feel themselves destroying their opponent..

The point is he doesn't have to. A guy who's possibly 10-20 times as strong as a normal human due to force aid and can move with mindblowing speed can do this in melee combat. As I said: Luke was tired and I doubt that Shimrra would have been a real threat to a "fresh" Luke given everything he displayed in the fight before.

And Marka's is a race that has relied on the Dark Side completely for the entire duration of their history. Remember Kreia talking about how most force users are when they lost that advantage?

In combat ? I didn't see much force use in the fight of Kressh vs Sadow aside from speed/strength aid via force use and some brick throwing of Sadow. If that was there normal style of concentration I doubt that Ragnos would be limited much by his inability to sense Shimrra or affect him directly with force attacks.

It's probable Shimrra was so over Luke he didn't have any chance to use the EL.

Well, I know Force Users exhibit enhanced strength, but what Yoda did just surpassed belief.

Shimrra is just as strong as that though, and likely as fast..I've never seen how fast a member of the sith species could move, even with force enhancements...we know Shimrra is lightning quick and comics are not really a good basis for how quick someone moves without a description of the event-like the audiobook for DE gave.

The thing is, though: Naga and Ludo were able to sense one another with the force. In most cases, one is able to 'sense' what's going to happen and respond...Jaina suffers a rush of relief when fighting Ssi-Ruuvi forces because she's able to feel them and let the force direct her movements in accordance

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It's probable Shimrra was so over Luke he didn't have any chance to use the EL.

Well, I know Force Users exhibit enhanced strength, but what Yoda did just surpassed belief.

Shimrra is just as strong as that though, and likely as fast..I've never seen how fast a member of the sith species could move, even with force enhancements...we know Shimrra is lightning quick and comics are not really a good basis for how quick someone moves without a description of the event-like the audiobook for DE gave.

The thing is, though: Naga and Ludo were able to sense one another with the force. In most cases, one is able to 'sense' what's going to happen and respond...Jaina suffers a rush of relief when fighting Ssi-Ruuvi forces because she's able to feel them and let the force direct her movements in accordance

Shimrra is just as fast and strong as Ragnos? Where did you get this "logical assumption" from? And you're misunderstanding the concept of the force here. Ragnos would be able to sense anything that is going to happen regardless of Shimrra's outside the force boundaries, he just can't use direct force attacks on shimrra, that's it.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It's probable Shimrra was so over Luke he didn't have any chance to use the EL.

Well, I know Force Users exhibit enhanced strength, but what Yoda did just surpassed belief.

Shimrra is just as strong as that though, and likely as fast..I've never seen how fast a member of the sith species could move, even with force enhancements...we know Shimrra is lightning quick and comics are not really a good basis for how quick someone moves without a description of the event-like the audiobook for DE gave.

The thing is, though: Naga and Ludo were able to sense one another with the force. In most cases, one is able to 'sense' what's going to happen and respond...Jaina suffers a rush of relief when fighting Ssi-Ruuvi forces because she's able to feel them and let the force direct her movements in accordance

Don't you mean the Vong? I don't believe that Jaina was born in 4 ABY.

Jaina fights the Ssi-Ruuk in the Force Heretic trilogy

Ah, my bad.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Shimrra is just as fast and strong as Ragnos? Where did you get this "logical assumption" from? And you're misunderstanding the concept of the force here. Ragnos would be able to sense anything that is going to happen regardless of Shimrra's outside the force boundaries, he just can't use direct force attacks on shimrra, that's it.

Shimmra shows his strength and speed against Luke, other Vong far weaker than Shimmra move awfully quick. What has Ragnos done?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Well, I know Force Users exhibit enhanced strength, but what Yoda did just surpassed belief.

Shimrra is just as strong as that though, and likely as fast..I've never seen how fast a member of the sith species could move, even with force enhancements...we know Shimrra is lightning quick and comics are not really a good basis for how quick someone moves without a description of the event-like the audiobook for DE gave.

Meh...
Obviously you either don't get the point how much force users are able to enchance their strength or you simply give the shapers of the Vong too much credit.
We've seen Yoda carrying that gun around. We've seen Mace hammering through solid durasteel with his bare hands - aside of the fact that he almost broke the arm of some of Vastors followers with a casual grip. We seen Sadow / Kressh putting their Sith swords through solid stone and - in Kressh's case - shatter one of these swords with his bare hands.
All of those people are behind Ragnos is terms of raw physical strength. I doubt that Shimrra comes close to that.

Speed ? See Kar vs Mace in Shatterpoint. Mace is placing six hits on Vastor, before his opponent is even able to blink with the novel saying something like "Kar Vastor was fast as lightning - but Mace was invisible". Yoda can be seen of deflecting fire from semi-automatic weapons coming from six different direction in ROTS. Mace in AotC deflects six blaster bolts from different directions in less than two seconds. This aside from the "usual" things: force speed, force jump and so on. I know Shimrra is fast but that fast ?

The thing is, though: Naga and Ludo were able to sense one another with the force. In most cases, one is able to 'sense' what's going to happen and respond...Jaina suffers a rush of relief when fighting Ssi-Ruuvi forces because she's able to feel them and let the force direct her movements in accordance

And see...here we have some nice contradiction to the movies, which makes the entire Vong idea stupid concerning fights. The force (or midichlorians) are only present in LIFEFORMS, correct ? Through the entire PT we see Jedi sucessfully fighting droids which clearly can't have any force connection. Now...if they can sucessfully fight "dead" things without any force connection - why shouldn't people be able to fight lifeforms without force connection sucessfully ?
That they can't directly be affected by force attacks (because the force "arcs away from them" as stated when Jacen uses a wave of force lightning against Vegere and some Vong) is halfway logical. Not being able to forsee things involving the wong, however, is not.

We have so not seen Sith putting their swords through solid stone...we just see Ludo's blade stop at the stone...nothing shows it penetrating the rock at all. And physically, vong are able to match most Jedi. Shimrra is far beyond most Vong...
and yeah, most Vong are able to match speed with Jedi, too, if not exceed them. And with shaper enhancements...

Hey, don't blame me, Nai...I didn't write the NJO, I'm just saying what happens there. And wasn't midichlorians simply declared a theory anyways? And things of metal still exist in the force as far as the Jedi are concerned, while the Vong are entirely sealed off from it

Originally posted by Lightsnake
We have so not seen Sith putting their swords through solid stone...we just see Ludo's blade stop at the stone...nothing shows it penetrating the rock at all. And physically, vong are able to match most Jedi. Shimrra is far beyond most Vong...
and yeah, most Vong are able to match speed with Jedi, too, if not exceed them. And with shaper enhancements...

Hey, don't blame me, Nai...I didn't write the NJO, I'm just saying what happens there. And wasn't midichlorians simply declared a theory anyways? And things of metal still exist in the force as far as the Jedi are concerned, while the Vong are entirely sealed off from it

Actually we have seen the Sith put their swords through stone. And as I recall, only the strongest caste of the Vong are able to match up with SOME Jedi. Since when are the Vong able to match the speed of Jedi or become faster than them?

As you recall. Ever read the NJO? Where'd the sith put swords through stone?

And considering the strongest caste of Vong happens to be the warrior caste-as, y'know, compared to the priest, scientist and politician class...

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No it couldn't. Luke had reached the Vong's level of the Force, the Unifying Force...darksiders cannot do that.

Yes, you keep thinking that, GV. I believe we stated we think Shimrra'd lose.

Tom is liable to say if his creations are beneath the canon characters, there's obviousness involved

Where does it say that the emerald lightning was part of the unifying force? To my knowledge, it wasnt explained at all.

If you admit Shimmra would lose, then why are you wasting our time?

No he isnt, because he isnt authorized to set Yoda or Sidious' power level. He can only compare his own creations. Like he could say that Kun was more powerful than Sadow etc. etc.

It's because Luke was operating on their level...Jacen did the same at one point.

Maybe becaus epeople keep throwing out how effortless it'd be?

Except Yoda and Sidious's levels have been set. And he says they're definitely stronger, meaning he thinks his creations are inferior. Open and shut, much?

Lightsnake, the only one that has absolutely authority on comparing 2 characters, is GL. Everybody else can make an opinion, that's all.

And I'd trust the opinion of a writer saying his creations are inferior over a fan's anyday

Sidious or Yoda's power levels have already been set? By who? You arent even making sense LS.

And I'll admit that Shimmra might give Ragnos a decent fight, if you will just drop your pointless argument.

Lesse, the Dark Side Sourcebook, the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, ROTS novelization, NEC...Yoda's been set as, up to the PT, the strongest Jedi ever, for one

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Lesse, the Dark Side Sourcebook, the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, ROTS novelization, NEC...Yoda's been set as, up to the PT, the strongest Jedi ever, for one

Sourcebooks arent canon. ROTS novelization is overruled by the movie. And strongest jedi ever has nothing to do with the ancient sith.