Re: Do you have to believe in God to get into Heaven?
Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Enlighten me
To start your enlightenment training, I'd reccomned that first, we learn how to post questions in thrads that have similar subject matters. For example:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f80/t414460.html] Is Heaven Hard to get into?
Please. We encourage conversation and debate in this forum, not question-ansewer or show and tell threads.
Re: Re: Do you have to believe in God to get into Heaven?
Originally posted by Alliance
To start your enlightenment training, I'd reccomned that first, we learn how to post questions in thrads that have similar subject matters. For example:[http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f80/t414460.html] Is Heaven Hard to get into?[/url]
Please. We encourage conversation and debate in this forum, not question-ansewer or show and tell threads.
😆 Be careful Alliance, not to get in trouble for impersonation a MOD.
Re: Re: Re: Do you have to believe in God to get into Heaven?
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
😆 Be careful Alliance, not to get in trouble for impersonation a MOD.
Is that an offical crime? I'm just sick of "i have a question and I cnat figure it out so I'm oging to make a new thread and make toher people figure things out for me and then I'm oging to get really angsty when I don't like their answer" threads.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Do you have to believe in God to get into Heaven?
Originally posted by Alliance
Is that an offical crime? I'm just sick of "i have a question and I cnat figure it out so I'm oging to make a new thread and make toher people figure things out for me and then I'm oging to get really angsty when I don't like their answer" threads.
OK then, I apologize.
Re: Do you have to believe in God to get into Heaven?
Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Enlighten me
Why don't you ask god that one, hes the one that lets people in?
I think maybe you need a passport, a bible wouldn't hurt, oh and make sure you bring a bottle of wine as a thank you gift if he decides to let you in. 😄
Re: Re: Do you have to believe in God to get into Heaven?
Originally posted by gordomuchacho
Why don't you ask god that one, hes the one that lets people in?I think maybe you need a passport, a bible wouldn't hurt, oh and make sure you bring a bottle of wine as a thank you gift if he decides to let you in. 😄
I'll co-sign the wine, but not as a gift. 😎
The rest is strictly optional.
Re: Do you have to believe in God to get into Heaven?
Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Enlighten me
God very well may exist, but probably not as a person who looks down on his, creates humans, and controls every last thing that happens on this world. So God isn't a very accurate term... Force is the only accurate thing I can think of, so I guess the Jedi got it right...
And if you had to believe in God to go to Heaven, then you're fate is predecided when you're born. According to Christianity, of course. But Christianity has one fatal flaw. Among others.
Re: Re: Do you have to believe in God to get into Heaven?
Originally posted by Illuminati
God very well may exist, but probably not as a person who looks down on his, creates humans, and controls every last thing that happens on this world. So God isn't a very accurate term... Force is the only accurate thing I can think of, so I guess the Jedi got it right...And if you had to believe in God to go to Heaven, then you're fate is predecided when you're born. According to Christianity, of course. But Christianity has one fatal flaw. Among others.
It isn't predecided, christinaity believes that god gave us free will, so we choose our down fate, not god. He is also all-knowing, which means he does know eventually what our fate is gonna be. Those statements contradict each other about god, however he defies logic and reasoning as well as science. It doesn't make much sense, but because our minds are incapable of understanding and perceiving logic like this, it is impossible to comprehend.
Originally posted by gordomuchacho
It isn't predecided, christinaity believes that god gave us free will, so we choose our down fate, not god. He is also all-knowing, which means he does know eventually what our fate is gonna be. Those statements contradict each other about god, however he defies logic and reasoning as well as science. It doesn't make much sense, but because our minds are incapable of understanding and perceiving logic like this, it is impossible to comprehend.
Debating flaw: Adhering to something even though it can be proven false by logic and reason.
You actually did the work for me, though you attempting to skirt around it by saying that "God defies logic and reason and science." Fair enough, but if that contradiction exists, we as human beings certainly don't transcend logic and reason. And we posess (presumably God-given) reason and logic, so why are we asked to go against it so completely? And how is it that we aren't pre-destined if "God" knows our path in life?
Nothing factual (even more complex theories such as the Uncertainty Principle of quantum mechanics) points to anything in the history of existence as having any sort of free will and being anything other than utterly determined in our nature. It's handy to think of ourselves as having free will (for purposes of law-making and self-motivation in life, among other things) but unless someone's willing to set aside their human faculties of reason (many are), it's reasonable to assume that if we do indeed have free will of some sort, we have no way of knowing it, whereas what we do know points to the contrary.
....didn't mean to attack you so thoroughly, but the wording of your theory there left me more than a little perturbed. You're more than welcome to believe in your God (for my own part, I'm a bit of an agnostic, believing in a creating force but nothing like the Judea-Christian God figure) but I simply felt a need to present an argument for the opposing side.
....
And to be serious about attempting to answer the question posed in this thread, it largely depends on the religion. Most Western traditions have a concrete Heaven, and belief in God is a prerequisite for some, others not so much. Most Eastern traditions believe in something akin to Enlightenment rather than a physical Heaven-state, so the answer would be "No" to those.
Originally posted by debbiejo
Scripture says "The Spirit returns to god that gave it"........We all go BACK TO WHERE WE CAME FROM........There IS NO HELL!!OK, got it ...good... 🙂
This is not true Debbijo. The Word of God--the Bible--reveals that there IS a Hell.
The Rich Man and Lazarus (a true account of one man’s experience in Hell)
Luke 16:19-31
19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus , full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham , have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham ; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”
John 1:17
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
John 5:43-47
43 I (Jesus the Christ) have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
Debbiejo, this sounds nothing like any of the general, unspecific parables that Jesus told. Go back and read all of the parables of Jesus. Not ONCE did Jesus mention a proper name. Jesus was always GENERAL and UNSPECIFIC. But this is the ONE TIME that Jesus is VERY SPECIFIC. That is because this is A TRUE ACCOUNT of one man's experience in Hell (Hades).
WHAT DID JESUS SAY ABOUT HELL (HADES)?
Mark 9:39, 43-48
39 But Jesus said…
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’
Jesus talked about Hell so I am satisfied and convinced that it is a literal place of torment.
p.s. now Jesus is speaking metaphorically. Jesus does not want you to cut off any part of your body. Can you see the difference?
THE OLD TESTAMENT
The Old Testament was written in the Hebrew language with some portions in Aramaic. The Hebrew word for Hell is “Sheol.” Let’s see what this word really means.
Sheol (Hell)
07585-sh@'owl {sheh-ole'} or sh@ol {sheh-ole'}
1) sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
a) the underworld
b) Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
1) place of no return
2) without praise of God
3) wicked sent there for punishment
4) righteous not abandoned to it
5) of the place of exile (fig)
6) of extreme degradation in sin
The word Hell is a place of torment no matter which language that it is translated in. Just because in Hebrew the word Hell is translated as Sheol does not negate the existence of Hell, it is just called by another name. For instance, the phrase “United States” is translated as “Los Estados Unidos” in Spanish, but the United States is STILL a literal place. Well, Hell is translated as “Sheol” in the Hebrew language, but Hell is STILL a literal place of torment.
THE NEW TESTAMENT
The New Testament was written in the Greek language. The Greek word for Hell is “Hades.” Let’s see what this word really means.
Hell (Hades)
86-hades {hah'-dace}
1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
++++
In Biblical Greek it is associated with Orcus, the infernal regions, a dark and dismal place in the very depths of the earth, the common receptacle of disembodied spirits. Usually Hades is just the abode of the wicked, Lu. 16:23, Rev. 20:13,14; a very uncomfortable place. TDNT.
( 2.) The Greek word hades of the New Testament has the same scope of signification as sheol of the Old Testament. It is a prison ( 1Pe 3:19), with gates and bars and locks ( Mat 16:18; Rev 1:18), and it is downward ( Mat 11:23; Luk 10:15).
Did you get that Debbiejoe, “The Greek word Hades of the New Testament has the same scope of signification as Sheol of the Old Testament…” The two words are a reference to the SAME PLACE OF TORMENT, they’re just translated into two different languages.
DID MOSES TALK ABOUT HELL?
Deuteronomy 32:22
For a fire is kindled in My anger,And shall burn to the lowest hell; It shall consume the earth with her increase, And set on fire the foundations of the mountains
Moses is the author of the first five books of the Bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy).Moses does mention Hell (Sheol) however Moses had an entirely different assignment: to lead God's people from Egypt and then give them the law from God.
John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
WHAT DID MOSES SAY ABOUT JESUS?
Deuteronomy 18:15-18
15 “The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, 16 according to all you desired of the LORD your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.’
17 “And the LORD said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. 18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.
There you have it. Moses declared that God would raise up a Prophet like him, and Him (Jesus) we should hear. Moses referred to Jesus Christ Who was not only a Prophet and Teacher but God in the flesh.
The Lord Jesus Christ is greater than Moses. You see, Moses wrote about Jesus and even talked to Him on the mountain where Christ was transfigured. But, Christ is God in human form, Moses is just a man. Christ Jesus talked about Hell and this is sufficient. I care more about what God says than what man (Moses) says. No disrespect to Moses, he had his place and mission. But God (Jesus Christ) is the Word made flesh. The Bible--the living, Word of God--says that God has spoken to us in these last days by His Son (Jesus).
The Israelites lived under a totally different dispensation (i.e., period of God's dealing with humanity regarding sin). Jesus Christ had not yet come to Earth to die for the sins of the world. Remember,
John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
We live in what is commonly referred to as the age of grace. Grace is unmerited, undeserved, mercy extended to us by God. God had appointed a set time when He would send His Son into the world to preach the Kingdom of God and repentance from sin. At the time Moses lived they simply were concerned with keeping God's laws to maintain fellowship and favor with Him. The worst thing for them was getting stoned to death. But under this dispensation of grace now God commands people everywhere to repent from sin and turn to Jesus Christ for salvation. That is why Jesus preached the gospel of the Kingdom of God and why Moses didn’t. It was not time for that. It was not Moses’ “thrust” or “calling.” God primarily waited until Jesus came on the scene to command people everywhere to REPENT from sins and to turn toward God.
Acts 17:30-31
Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man [Jesus Christ] whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
🙂
Re: Do you have to believe in God to get into Heaven?
Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Enlighten me
Is this a trick question? Jesus Christ IS God (God the Son) and you DO HAVE TO or MUST believe in Him (i.e., personally put your faith or trust in Him for salvation from sin) in order to get to Heaven.
John 3:15-17, “…whoever believes in Him [Jesus Christ] should not perish but have eternal life.” “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son [Jesus Christ], that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” “For God did not send His Son [Jesus Christ] into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.”
1 John 5:11-13, “And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son [Jesus Christ]. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God [Jesus Christ] does not have life. These things I {John the Apostle} have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.”
John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son [Jesus Christ] has everlasting life….”
John 10:9, “I [Jesus Christ] am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he {or she} will be saved….”
John 11:25, “Jesus [the Christ] said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he [or she] may die, he [or she] shall live.”
John 14:6, “Jesus said to him, ‘I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father [God] except through Me.’”
Romans 10:8-11, “But what does it say? ‘The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart’ [that is, the word of faith which we preach]: That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:13, “‘For ‘whoever calls on the name of the Lord [Jesus Christ] shall be saved.’”
Acts 10:43
To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him [Jesus Christ] will receive remission of sins."
I apologize for the vebosity of Scripture. I hope this answers your question.
🙂
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
This is not true Debbijo. The Word of God--the Bible--reveals that there IS a Hell.The Rich Man and Lazarus (a true account of one man’s experience in Hell)
Luke 16:19-31
19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus , full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham , have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham ; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”John 1:17
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.John 5:43-47
43 I (Jesus the Christ) have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”Debbiejo, this sounds nothing like any of the general, unspecific parables that Jesus told. Go back and read all of the parables of Jesus. Not ONCE did Jesus mention a proper name. Jesus was always GENERAL and UNSPECIFIC. But this is the ONE TIME that Jesus is VERY SPECIFIC. That is because this is A TRUE ACCOUNT of one man's experience in Hell (Hades).
WHAT DID JESUS SAY ABOUT HELL (HADES)?
Mark 9:39, 43-48
39 But Jesus said…
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.
45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’Jesus talked about Hell so I am satisfied and convinced that it is a literal place of torment.
p.s. now Jesus is speaking metaphorically. Jesus does not want you to cut off any part of your body. Can you see the difference?
THE OLD TESTAMENT
The Old Testament was written in the Hebrew language with some portions in Aramaic. The Hebrew word for Hell is “Sheol.” Let’s see what this word really means.
Sheol (Hell)
07585-sh@'owl {sheh-ole'} or sh@ol {sheh-ole'}
1) sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
a) the underworld
b) Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
1) place of no return
2) without praise of God
3) wicked sent there for punishment
4) righteous not abandoned to it
5) of the place of exile (fig)
6) of extreme degradation in sinThe word Hell is a place of torment no matter which language that it is translated in. Just because in Hebrew the word Hell is translated as Sheol does not negate the existence of Hell, it is just called by another name. For instance, the phrase “United States” is translated as “Los Estados Unidos” in Spanish, but the United States is STILL a literal place. Well, Hell is translated as “Sheol” in the Hebrew language, but Hell is STILL a literal place of torment.
THE NEW TESTAMENT
The New Testament was written in the Greek language. The Greek word for Hell is “Hades.” Let’s see what this word really means.
Hell (Hades)
86-hades {hah'-dace}
1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell++++
In Biblical Greek it is associated with Orcus, the infernal regions, a dark and dismal place in the very depths of the earth, the common receptacle of disembodied spirits. Usually Hades is just the abode of the wicked, Lu. 16:23, Rev. 20:13,14; a very uncomfortable place. TDNT.( 2.) The Greek word hades of the New Testament has the same scope of signification as sheol of the Old Testament. It is a prison ( 1Pe 3:19), with gates and bars and locks ( Mat 16:18; Rev 1:18), and it is downward ( Mat 11:23; Luk 10:15).
Did you get that Debbiejoe, “The Greek word Hades of the New Testament has the same scope of signification as Sheol of the Old Testament…” The two words are a reference to the SAME PLACE OF TORMENT, they’re just translated into two different languages.
Moses is a mythological figure. Some doubt even his historical existence. But what is certain is that the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Old Testament that are supposed to be his revelation are not the work of Moses. This has been demonstrated by many Jewish and Christian scholars A simple proof for this statement is that all the five books of Pentateuch are narrated by a third person. The speaker is neither YAHWEH nor Moses. Another obvious proof is that at the end of Deuteronomy. 34:1-12, there is an obituary of Moses that reads,
And Moses went up from the plains of Moab unto the mountain of Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, that is over against Jericho. And the LORD shewed him all the land of Gilead, unto Dan,
And all Naphtali, and the land of Ephraim, and Manasseh, and all the land of Judah, unto the utmost sea,
And the south, and the plain of the valley of Jericho, the city of palm trees, unto Zoar.
And the LORD said unto him, This is the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither.
So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.
And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days: so the days of weeping and mourning for Moses were ended.
And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the LORD commanded Moses.
And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,
In all the signs and the wonders, which the LORD sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land,
And in all that mighty hand, and in all the great terror which Moses shewed in the sight of all Israel.
How is it possible for someone to write his own obituary centuries after his own death? The above shows that these books that are allegedly written by Moses were actually written many centuries after his death when even no trace of his tomb was left. The fact that no one knew of the exact place of his burial is also an indication that he was either a legendary an mythological figure or was not important enough for Israelis to keep track of his tomb or make him a shrine. Even if there ever existed a person with the name of Moses, all the stories attributed to him are fabrications of the later priests who forged the entire Bible as it has been demonstrated by many modern Biblical scholars.
So neither Judaism nor Christianity were originally monotheistic religions. Then who is the father of monotheism? To whom shall we give the credit for this new theology that inseminated intolerance and is responsible for many wars amongst the nations as each claimed to be the chosen people of the most-High and the only ones with the truth?
"Do you have to believe in God to get into Heaven?"
All philosophical Does-God-Exist/Define-God issues aside, the thread question itself is interesting from its own POV.
Typically, technically (and worded simply), God made Heaven, and Heaven is God's main crib. So the question is basically implying that the "House" exists but not necessarily the "Builder." Or perhaps, the Builder exists too (that's why the House is there), but for whatever reason, the questioner is asking if one needs to acknowledge the Builder's existence.