you need not have evidence that I exist. Truth and fact are not based on what Eis knows. I'm sure there are Encyclopedias full of facts that you do not know.
I exist. I am physical matter that can be tested over and over again, all ending in the same result. I produce many chemicals that can be tested over and over again, all with the same conclusions. I am fact. There is direct physical evidence as well as recordable data that prove my existence. what you know or do not know has no baring on the subject of truth or fact.
Originally posted by Evil Dead
you need not have evidence that I exist. Truth and fact are not based on what Eis knows. I'm sure there are Encyclopedias full of facts that you do not know.I exist. I am physical matter that can be tested over and over again, all ending in the same result. I produce many chemicals that can be tested over and over again, all with the same conclusions. I am fact. There is direct physical evidence as well as recordable data that prove my existence. what you know or do not know has no baring on the subject of truth or fact.
I personally can't prove either of them but I accept they are both possible, one more so than the other of course.
you might want to turn back upon this path you are going down. It's beginning to make you look as though you have a complete lack of knowledge or even what the very definitions of "truth" and "fact" are. That is something none of your previous posts have done. It's better for you to just walk away from the topic altogether and save face than to enter into a debate with me using fallacy laden, illogical posts which show lack of knowledge on the very subject we are conversing about. When one starts doing so, it makes them appear so desperate to proveil that they will say anything, regardless of it's truth......... it's the path of the troll, the darkside.
That said...
But how do I know for sure you exist? I certainly can't test your existence myself even though you might claim you indeed do exist. Some people claim they saw god... You claim you exist.
you certainly can. that is the great thing about all facts, all truths. They are always there for any person who wishes to test their validity. If you want to test my existence being factual, it's just as easy for you as anyone else in the world. All you must do is come meet me. I will let you take home copies of not only my physical matter (hair, finger nail...your preference). I will let you record data of how I affect the world around me. You can record my body temperature as ice melts on my skin surface......anything you wish (nothing anally, though please).
see....any fact or truth can be tested at any time by anyone. All it takes is the desire to test such facts by the person. If you wish to verify that the andromeda galaxy exists.....go to school....become an astronomer....use your access of great telescopes to view anything in the heavens you wish.
Originally posted by Templares
Question: Does God exist?
Theist: "Yes"
Atheist: "No"
Agnostic: "I dont know for sure which is why i dont want to answer.". . . . so avoiding the question/issue ENTIRELY puts agnostics on a HIGHER LOGICAL GROUND than either theists and atheists who give an answer?! Methinks, NOT.
Most agnostics that i know off are atheists who STILL vestigially BELIEVE, hence, AFRAID of Divine Retribution in the afterlife. But since there is NO PROOF that there is a state of afterlife after dying, why FEAR and expect Divine Retribution? Lets not forget that "the Divine" itself ie. God. is itself unproven.
Some proof that there is NO God?
Unanswered prayers.
Unfulfilled prophecies from "divinely inspired" written accounts.Theists and apparently some agnostics, dont NOTICE and/or RECOGNIZE these as proofs simply because theyre still immersed on certain (cheap and hollow) "catch all" dogmatic interpretations, such as "God works in mysterious ways".
God gave us choice, and most prayers interfere with Human choice. Why would he renege on that? One man's garbage is another's man's jewel... but just because one man wants his jewel doesn't mean he'll get it if it'll kill everyone that ocnsiders it garbage. If a terrorist prayed for a Nuclear Weapon, you think he is going to get it overnight?
Why would god answer the billions of selfish prayers out there, and upon those selfish ones, the extremely trivial and pointless ones?
I don't think you are understanding where I'm coming from.
You are saying that it doesn't exist until there's proof, which is somewhat odd considering nothing might exist. There is nothing we can know for certain with no space for doubt. I might meet you, check your passport and do a DNA test but there's a chance it might all be a fraction of my imagination... Nothing has absolute certainty. There is always room for doubt...
I'm not exactly sure how I got there though...
So, no proof, it doesn't exist? What if there is proof? That is yet to be discovered... Or what if "He" simply chose not to leave phisical proof?
I don't know... All I'm trying to say is that since there is always a possibility that a deity exists or that a deity doesn't exist agnosticism is the most logical belief.
You are saying that it doesn't exist until there's proof, which is somewhat odd considering nothing might exist. There is nothing we can know for certain with no space for doubt. I might meet you, check your passport and do a DNA test but there's a chance it might all be a fraction of my imagination... Nothing has absolute certainty. There is always room for doubt...
this isn't the philosophy forum......we don't deal with abstract thought. The real world, even if one mass illusion as you allude to, is here for all 6 billion people on this planet currently to intract with. Within this world we have a standard. The standard of facts and truths are that they have to be supported by some sort of physical evidence or testable recorded data. It does not matter if this is all one big illusion......if we're in the Matrix.....whatever.......we all share the same reality, therefore it's standard.
So, no proof, it doesn't exist? What if there is proof? That is yet to be discovered... Or what if "He" simply chose not to leave phisical proof?
there is no such thing as proof that has yet to be discovered. If it hasn't been discoverd, we do not know it exists.......therefore we can not give it a label like "proof" or "evidence". It is simply "something" unknown to man. Once man knows of it, he can label it "evidence", "proof" or whatever.
Your last line, I'm striking from the record as it brings down the total value of your post. Everything in this universe leaves physical evidence or recordable data. There is no reason to think otherwise as not one thing known to man is in contradiction to this. Nothing in this universe has a "choice" whether to do so or not. If it is in our space-time....it has physical properties that can be tested or alters the space-time around it.....allowing this data to be recorded.
Your last line, I'm striking from the record as it brings down the total value of your post.
Everything in this universe leaves physical evidence or recordable data. There is no reason to think otherwise as not one thing known to man is in contradiction to this. Nothing in this universe has a "choice" whether to do so or not. If it is in our space-time....it has physical properties that can be tested or alters the space-time around it.....allowing this data to be recorded.
there is no such thing as proof that has yet to be discovered. If it hasn't been discoverd, we do not know it exists.......therefore we can not give it a label like "proof" or "evidence". It is simply "something" unknown to man. Once man knows of it, he can label it "evidence", "proof" or whatever
this isn't the philosophy forum......we don't deal with abstract thought. The real world, even if one mass illusion as you allude to, is here for all 6 billion people on this planet currently to intract with. Within this world we have a standard. The standard of facts and truths are that they have to be supported by some sort of physical evidence or testable recorded data. It does not matter if this is all one big illusion......if we're in the Matrix.....whatever.......we all share the same reality, therefore it's standard.
Exactly, some people might have thought the earth was moving around the sun in the middle ages but they had no way to prove it. It doesn't mean the earth didn't circle the sun back then though. So yeah, as far as we know we have no way of proving God exists at this time, doesn't mean he doesn't exist though nor does it mean he does
irrelevant. you are speaking of a past idea we now to to be correct through evidence collected to support it. When speaking on any subject, idea or hypothesis......you must keep it in context, the exact time it was put forth. When the idea first came about of a heliocentric solar system....it was not fact. Even the commonly held assertion of a geocentric solar system was not fact. There were no facts on the subject at all......all ideas were speculation as there was no evidence to support one claim over any other. You do not get the luxury of looking back centuries later and saying, "it was fact"......as any theory or idea must be put in the context of the time it is stated.
The earth revolves around the sun. We know this to be fact today. We have much evidence to support this claim. Was this a fact in 1000AD? No. It was not a fact that the earth revolved around the sun, there were no facts at all on this topic.
In much the same way, does god exist? As of 2006......no. There are no facts to support this claim. If you come back 50 years from now with evidence to support the claim that there is a god, okay......it'll be fact in 2056. This in no way will change the fact that 50 years ago......way back in '06, the existence of god was not a fact.
Originally posted by Evil Dead
irrelevant. you are speaking of a past idea we now to to be correct through evidence collected to support it. When speaking on any subject, idea or hypothesis......you must keep it in context, the exact time it was put forth. When the idea first came about of a heliocentric solar system....it was not fact. Even the commonly held assertion of a geocentric solar system was not fact. There were no facts on the subject at all......all ideas were speculation as there was no evidence to support one claim over any other. You do not get the luxury of looking back centuries later and saying, "it was fact"......as any theory or idea must be put in the context of the time it is stated.The earth revolves around the sun. We know this to be fact today. We have much evidence to support this claim. Was this a fact in 1000AD? No. It was not a fact that the earth revolved around the sun, there were no facts at all on this topic.
In much the same way, does god exist? As of 2006......no. There are no facts to support this claim. If you come back 50 years from now with evidence to support the claim that there is a god, okay......it'll be fact in 2056. This in no way will change the fact that 50 years ago......way back in '06, the existence of god was not a fact.
I'm not saying it's a fact god exists right now, I'm saying there's a chance he does exist. The lack of proof doesn't mean shit, it simply tells us we can't prove there is a god. Nothing more.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Actually it's more like this:Theist: "Yes"
Athiest: "No"
Agnostic: "Maybe"
It doesnt matter. It still means agnostics, instead of answering the question, AVOIDS it.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Nope. Agnostics are on the much higher logical ground, because they accept the reality that they do not know for sure. Athiests and Religious people SWEAR that what they beleive is true, even when they have no proof to validify thier claims.A truly intelligent person is one who realizes that he or she does not know everything. Only an Fool thinks he knows everything.
And when pray tell are we GOING TO KNOW EVERYTHING or to be more specific, when will we know EXACTLY that god EXISTS?
When we are dead?
I for one am not going to wait until im dead or dying - hell i doubt that that the debate about god's existence will be resolved in my lifetime - to make a decision. Neither will his empty threat of eternal damnation in the afterlife if im WRONG, will dissuade me from making my decision right now. The BULK of evidence -unanswered prayers, unfulfilled prophecies, he/she/it could not be observed - suggest that he DOESNT EXIST and im willing to bet my soul on that (oops sorry i dont believe in a soul).
If God CONCLUSIVELY proves his power and himself to exist that is when im going to admit my mistake and embrace religion again. I mean who wants to suffer eternal damnation if you could do something about it?
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
They are both unproven.
True. Which is why we should not fear god and eternal damnation.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
This is evidense, but not proof. The "Christian" God may not exist, but that does not erase the possibility of a Superior Force.
And is this "Superior Force" supposed to be WORTHY worshipping like a god? Even if there was something/someone who claims to be this Superior Force (the Creator of the universe, blah,blah,bla), a REAL ATHEIST AND AGNOSTIC would still NOT drop to his knees and go religious on this Superior Force RIGHT AWAY. He has to give us a convincing reason, hopefully peaceful . . . .
Of course, if this "Superior Force" threaten us with Eternal Damnation (in the afterlife or not) and he/she/it is actually CAPABLE of doing it and we ACTUALLY get to OBSERVE it happening, then only then, we would and SHOULD REPENT and turn away from from our godless way of life.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
"God works in mysterious ways" is a possibility, but when you analyze all the claims, all the scripture, and all the matter on the subject, you will discover many contradictions, much irrationality, and no clarity.That claim that God works in mysterious ways seems more like a cop-out than an actual solution.
Yes it is a copout dogmatic solution. Theists and apparently some agnostics believe in this which is why they fail to recognize unanswered prayers and unfulfilled prophecies as evidence of God's NONE EXISTENCE.
Originally posted by Templares
It doesnt matter. It still means agnostics, instead of answering the question, AVOIDS it.
Maybe is an answer. Is the Universe infinite? Maybe...
You cannot give an Absolute Answer to something you know nothing about. You know nothing about God, neither do religious people...you both only know what you see and are told.
Listen buddy...we only have 5 senses, which don't always work right. We only see the world as we want 2, not as it is. And we all see it differently.
Nobody knows absolute truth, and nobody knows if God really exists or not.
Athiesm and Religion are permanent solutions to an unsolvable problem.
Originally posted by Templares
And when pray tell are we GOING TO KNOW EVERYTHING or to be more specific, when will we know EXACTLY that god EXISTS?
When we know exactly that God doesn't exist?
Both questions have the same answer.....Never.
Originally posted by Templares
When we are dead?
That's the point. We have know way of knowing either possibility, and therefore have no Conclusive answer.
Originally posted by Templares
I for one am not going to wait until im dead or dying - hell i doubt that that the debate about god's existence will be resolved in my lifetime - to make a decision. Neither will his empty threat of eternal damnation in the afterlife if im WRONG, will dissuade me from making my decision right now. The BULK of evidence -unanswered prayers, unfulfilled prophecies, he/she/it could not be observed - suggest that he DOESNT EXIST and im willing to bet my soul on that (oops sorry i dont believe in a soul).
Do what you want...I don't care what you beleive. But when you beleive something that you have no proof of, and then claim it as fact....your logic is flawed.
You are no better than a Religious Zealot on this matter. You share the common decision of claiming something you don't know anything about as Fact. You know nothing about God, no one does. You know almost nothing about this Universe as none of us do.
How the hell can you claim your beleif in God's non existance as Fact, when you have no fkn proof of that whatsoever ?
Originally posted by Templares
If God CONCLUSIVELY proves his power and himself to exist that is when im going to admit my mistake and embrace religion again. I mean who wants to suffer eternal damnation if you could do something about it?
And until then you will CONCLUDE that God does not exist ? Have you any conclusive evidense that God, or any superior force, for that matter do not exist ?
Originally posted by Templares
True. Which is why we should not fear god and eternal damnation.
We can fear whatever we want....
Personally, I don't beleive in any of it. It's all fairy tales to me...but that is JUST my beleif based on much evidense and observation, but not enough for me to claim my beleif as fact.
But hey, if a person wants to be a coward thier entire life, and suppress thier own dreams for the sake of not ending up in Hell...I could care less.
It's when they compell the rest of us to follow that absurd lifestyle that I get mad.
Originally posted by Templares
And is this "Superior Force" supposed to be WORTHY worshipping like a god? Even if there was something/someone who claims to be this Superior Force (the Creator of the universe, blah,blah,bla), a REAL ATHEIST AND AGNOSTIC would still NOT drop to his knees and go religious on this Superior Force RIGHT AWAY. He has to give us a convincing reason, hopefully peaceful . . . .
I worship Life. I worship the fact that I exist, I worship those I love, and I worship Love itself. Is there something wrong with that ?
If someone much stronger than me threatened me with death or torment, than yeah, I'd fkn go way down on my knees...and kiss the fkn ground that they walk on just to keep me safe.
Unfortunately, most Christians do that ANYWAY even without threat of immediate death or torment. 😆
Originally posted by Templares
Of course, if this "Superior Force" threaten us with Eternal Damnation (in the afterlife or not) and he/she/it is actually CAPABLE of doing it and we ACTUALLY get to OBSERVE it happening, then only then, we would and SHOULD REPENT and turn away from from our godless way of life.
Oh yeah, I totally agree lol
Originally posted by Templares
Yes it is a copout dogmatic solution. Theists and apparently some agnostics believe in this which is why they fail to recognize unanswered prayers and unfulfilled prophecies as evidence of God's NONE EXISTENCE.
It's evidence...but not proof.
Answered Prayers and Nastradomous's coincidental predictions are evidense of God's existance, but not proof as well.
Neither side has proof. That's my point.
Originally posted by Darth_Erebus😂 Nice. thumbsup
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Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Maybe is an answer. Is the Universe infinite? Maybe...You cannot give an Absolute Answer to something you know nothing about. You know nothing about God, neither do religious people...you both only know what you see and are told.
Listen buddy...we only have 5 senses, which don't always work right. We only see the world as we want 2, not as it is. And we all see it differently.
Nobody knows absolute truth, and nobody knows if God really exists or not.
Athiesm and Religion are permanent solutions to an unsolvable problem.
Neither does agnosticism.
The phrase "Nobody knows absolute truth, and nobody knows if God really exists or not." is itself PURE DOGMATIC SPECULATION.
"Oh! You say that we cannot 'know' anything about God's existance?"
"O RLY? How do you know that for SURE? Where's your proof?"
Originally posted by Lord UrizenDo what you want...I don't care what you beleive. But when you beleive something that you have no proof of, and then claim it as fact....your logic is flawed.
You are no better than a Religious Zealot on this matter. You share the common decision of claiming something you don't know anything about as Fact. You know nothing about God, no one does. You know almost nothing about this Universe as none of us do.
How the hell can you claim your beleif in God's non existance as Fact, when you have no fkn proof of that whatsoever ?
And until then you will CONCLUDE that God does not exist ? Have you any conclusive evidense that God, or any superior force, for that matter do not exist ?
First off, for an atheist, god or a Superior force is none existant until proven otherwise. If a god-claimant proves his godhood under close scientific scrutiny, I doubt there is an atheist who will stay an atheist.
Second, it depends on what you want to COUNT as CONCRETE proof. Most atheists count scientific advancements which dispels the notion of a supernatural being operating in the background as concrete proof that god does not exists. I also count logical and theological refutations of theistic claims for God's existence as concrete proof (after all theists have the burden of proof). Of course, agnostics WILL NOT accept these as PROOFS only insufficient "evidence" (whats the difference?) "because man is simply INCAPABLE of ATTAINING KNOWLEDGE about god's existence."
This stinks like the theistic stance that god is beyond comprehension for us mere mortals.
Bonus quote (and which is why agnosticism for me should not even be a third option between theism and atheism) :
I forgot whos' the agnostic who said that "An Agnostic may think the Christian God [insert Allah or Buddah or anybody else here] as improbable as the Olympians; in that case, he is, for practical purposes, at one with the atheists."
Originally posted by Templares
It doesnt matter. It still means agnostics, instead of answering the question, AVOIDS it.
Do you also give answers to complicated and abstract mathematical thoughts you don't know shit about? I mean, I don't. Of course I could always say the answer is 42..what would it help, I would have answered a question and have no clue if I am wrong or not. To not rule out the possibility of something is a logical thought. And though atheism is also logical since there is not one shred of evidence otherwise, agnosticism is the more honest and more true thought.
Originally posted by Darth_Erebus👆 good likst
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