Duke Nukem Vs. Master Chief

Originally posted by DarkC
The Nukem thing is beside the point.
You need to learn to read between the lines. I was never referring to a comparison of Nukem's strength to Chief's strength.
I was referring to a contradiction of in-game skills vs skills in the novelization.
So far you have done absolutely nothing to prove that they do contradict each other.

No it'snot beside the point... read the title of this thread...

But lets get one thing perfectly clear, I never claimed that MC was an average guy, but he is NOWHERE near the level that the books puthim in comparison to the game.

The book, I beleive stated him at the 66 tonne lifting range (At least, thats what I've been quoted), this is stupendously overpowered when com[ared to the game, flipping a tank and actually lifting it are two entirely different things.

Originally posted by DarkC
And the vehicle flipping does follow the in-novel events.

Read above.

Originally posted by DarkC
Other FPS games have different circumstances, events and character abilities.
Have you stopped to consider that? Maybe that's why the speed is different?
It isn't even realistic, simply sprinting through a level to get to the end and somehow surviving the hailstorm of enemy fire. Absolutely pointless.

Thats hardly the point is it. Really look at what you just said... it's a game... it's not supposed to be ultra-realistic. How realistic is it to playas a genetically engineered soldier hundereds of years in the future battling hostile aliens?

My speed argument doesn't just cover Duke, but plenty of others, youwant a closer comparison, play Half Life.

Originally posted by DarkC
If you're going to pick an accurate FPS game to compare gameplay speeds with that of Halo, at least pick one more appropriately 'realistic' and along the lines of the circumstances recorded on Halo. Not every game is a blisteringly fast run towards the end, annihilating enemies on the way.
Duke Nukem is basically more a parody of human machismo than it is an actual game. Comparing its gameplay to that of Halo's is a lost cause.
It's like comparing apples to oranges, the two are entirely different.

I comparedit to Duke because THAT is the thread... Don't try and tell me how to debate please, I gave you your contradiction and yourmaking excuses, don't do that.

Originally posted by DarkC
How is it a contradiction? You can state it over and over, but it will not make what you say fact.

And you making excuses doesn't disprove it either.

You know what the contradiction is, Cheif certainly wouldn't concerve his energy for the entirety of both games, especially when he has a time limit and there are no vehicles avalable.

Originally posted by DarkC
In the case of the games Chief and Arbiter decide to keep their weapons to their shoulders the whole time in a target rich environment.
Contradiction? No.
In the case of the games Chief decides to move along at a light jog to conserve his strength. When he needed to move faster, he hopped on a vehicle to save his energy.
Contradiction? No.

You can keep your weapons in your hands and still move faster than a jog, soldiers do it all the time. Or would you rather I compared other FPS again. All the classic FPs do it, All the recent ones do it...

Originally posted by DarkC
You're stating that the Halo novels should not be held as a primary source when Bungie spent about the same amount of time babysitting the plotline of the books as they did planning the game mechanics, plot, and characters of the games.
What happened in the books is as legitimate as the events that occurred in the games.
Bungie even added some subtle elements included in the books, in Halo 2.

No, because here, the GAMES are always the primary canon, and the feats of the book don't match the capabilities of the game, I'm sorry DarkC, what else do you want me to say?

Originally posted by DarkC
You need to stop trying to say things as though they were solid fact. And condescendingly saying "I'm sorry, but you just don't get it" doesn't cut it as an explanation.

I don't, but I know what I see, and I know what I've read don't match. You and the other Halo Supporters can make all the excuses you like, but the fact is, the books don't match the game, and for that reason, they shouldn't be used.

Also, Iam not being condecending, and I didn't say "You just don't get it" anywhere, refrain from putting words in my mouth in the future.

Originally posted by DarkC
You're repeating yourself without offering a valid explanation of your arguments. You're also taking many of my arguments out of context.

Then you'd better put your arguments into context. Also, I offered many valid explanations, the strength and speed are both contradictory to the books, you prefer to make excuses, while I cited the contradictions and explained them.

And another thing, I am not trying to place MC to the level of Average Joe, but I am pointing out that he is nowhere remotelyclose to the levelsthat the Books put him at.

Originally posted by DarkC
The tank flipping may not fascinate you, but is an impressive feat in the universe of Halo. We're not comparing to Nukem here. Lifting five tons of steel alloy and ordnance is nothing to sneeze at.

Far cry from 66 tonnes, and yes, we are supposed to be comparing toDuke, considering thats the purpose of the thread.

Originally posted by DarkC
Yes, because I'm sure the real Chief would want to kill his own teammates in a hostile environment by bashing their skulls in with the butt of a Battle Rifle. Try comparing to some of the Covenant instead.

Oh please Don't try to make excuses for that too...

Look, the point stands since you cannot refute it. Red Grunts can take 2 or more hits on Legendary. So can Jackals and Drones.

6HRc9KT1pHw&NR

WTF!!
anyways, besides the point..

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
6HRc9KT1pHw&NR

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No it'snot beside the point... read the title of this thread...

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
But lets get one thing perfectly clear, I never claimed that MC was an average guy, but he is NOWHERE near the level that the books puthim in comparison to the game.

The games tend to be single-platformed and lacking variety of demonstrations in comparison to the books, but nonetheless it is still correct so far.
Having all four Halo books in my personal collection and having read them multiple times, as well as owning both games as well, you better know what the hell you are talking about before shooting your mouth off like that.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
The book, I beleive stated him at the 66 tonne lifting range (At least, thats what I've been quoted), this is stupendously overpowered when com[ared to the game, flipping a tank and actually lifting it are two entirely different things.

The weight of a Scorpion MBT is exactly 66 tons. Considering he has to use every single muscle in his body for that and that his arm alone can easily heft 250kg without any real effort, I'd say it was quite accurate.
He indeed has the strength to flip tanks. End of story.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Thats hardly the point is it. Really look at what you just said... it's a game... it's not supposed to be ultra-realistic. How realistic is it to playas a genetically engineered soldier hundereds of years in the future battling hostile aliens?

And I believe Newtonian physics would still last into the future, thanks. No denying that.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
My speed argument doesn't just cover Duke, but plenty of others, youwant a closer comparison, play Half Life.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I comparedit to Duke because THAT is the thread... Don't try and tell me how to debate please, I gave you your contradiction and yourmaking excuses, don't do that.

I asked you a question regarding solely use of literature as a source, I didn't say anything regarding Duke's abilities. You took my argument out of context and now you're trying to cover it up by saying that it's the original purpose of the thread.

I believe you already stated that the primary debate was over anyways, earlier.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
And you making excuses doesn't disprove it either.

Once you offer in-game contradictions that I can't

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
[n]You know what the contradiction is, Cheif certainly wouldn't concerve his energy for the entirety of both games, especially when he has a time limit and there are no vehicles avalable.[/b]

A time limit? The only thing that had an actual time limit in both games is the final level of Halo, the Maw. And there were Warthogs for that one.

There are an astounding number of vehicles found in the levels of both games, actually. In those cases, only the idiots run through.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
You can keep your weapons in your hands and still move faster than a jog, soldiers do it all the time. Or would you rather I compared other FPS again. All the classic FPs do it, All the recent ones do it...

Counter-strike, as an example has three speeds of movement, crouching, walking and running. While running your aim goes haywire. Call of Duty and Gears of War don't even show a targeting reticle when you're running.

On the other hand, the Master Chief's reticle and weapon profile stays the same no matter what speed he is moving at in the games. He's moving relatively fast compared to UNSC soldiers, but he's still moving slow enough to keep perfect aim.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No, because here, the GAMES are always the primary canon, and the feats of the book don't match the capabilities of the game, I'm sorry DarkC, what else do you want me to say?

Considering the process, I would say that yes, it would be still as legitimate as what happened in the games. You still haven't done anything to prove me wrong.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I don't, but I know what I see, and I know what I've read don't match. You and the other Halo Supporters can make all the excuses you like, but the fact is, the books don't match the game, and for that reason, they shouldn't be used.

Basically what I'm reading here is you repeating something over and over without any real backup.
Remember what I said earlier. It isn't going to make it any more of a fact.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zeor
Also, Iam not being condecending, and I didn't say "You just don't get it" anywhere, refrain from putting words in my mouth in the future.

Let's have a look at what you wrote earlier.

I'msorry DarkC, but no, you don't getthat concession.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Then you'd better put your arguments into context. Also, I offered many valid explanations, the strength and speed are both contradictory to the books, you prefer to make excuses, while I cited the contradictions and explained them.

You've provided points that I've explained and arguments that I've refuted. That doesn't make what you said fact. You're trying to prove something you stated here. I'm not.
Once you've provided a point that I cannot possibly say "I refuse", then it's fact.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
And another thing, I am not trying to place MC to the level of Average Joe, but I am pointing out that he is nowhere remotelyclose to the levelsthat the Books put him at.

However, unless you've read the books multiple times despite what others have been saying, I don't think you are in a position at all to judge whether or not something contradicts. Which is why I brought it up in the first place.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Far cry from 66 tonnes, and yes, we are supposed to be comparing toDuke, considering thats the purpose of the thread.

Heh, you lose Xeno, this debate was over long ago

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Oh please Don't try to make excuses for that too...

Look, the point stands since you cannot refute it.

I suggest you try and find a logical reasoning why Chief would start whacking his own teammates.
In the meantime, read my earlier post to BlaxicanHydra.

Whacking teammates that are on your side and bashing in enemy heads who want you dead are two very different things, Blaxican.

Bungie wouldn't have wanted to make it easy to accidentally (Whoops!) break a teammates ribcage because of a player's poor aim.

Oh, and try not to tell me to repress arguments. Bad form.
Cannot refute your argument? I believe I did already.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Red Grunts can take 2 or more hits on Legendary. So can Jackals and Drones.

It should be, considering that in the book the Chiefs shields are always drained in a few hits...

And if the Chief has the strength to lift Tanks then why can't he kill ANY thing he hits in one punch? Why can't he simply punch through walls or whatever, if he's that strong?

Originally posted by BlaxicanHydra
It should be, considering that in the book the Chiefs shields are always drained in a few hits...

It does not meant that he goes down two or three plasma hits, like in Legendary. The marines outlive you, for Chrissake.
A few hits is more along the lines of, say, Heroic.

Originally posted by BlaxicanHydra
And if the Chief has the strength to lift Tanks then why can't he kill ANY thing he hits in one punch? Why can't he simply punch through walls or whatever, if he's that strong?

When a tank is lifted it requires not only arm strength, but legs as well, upper body, lower body, back, the whole shebang. Bungie apparently were just too lazy to include lifting animations for the vehicles.

On the other hand when he's punching someone while running at a light jog, obviously it isn't going to require every single muscle in his body.

Originally posted by DarkC
I'm fully aware of the title thread, thanks.
However, I'm choosing to bring up a particular point you said earlier on, which pertained to the usage of the Halo books as a source for his abilities.

I didn';t say it couldn't be used as a reference, but for it to take the place of onscreen evidence? no mate, it's not on... That opens up all sorts of nasty sh!t, including non-canon stuff for all other characters.

Originally posted by DarkC
You're really simply stalling here. Don't avoid the question I brought up. Using the original purpose of this thread as an excuse is completely irrelevant to the subject at hand here.

No I'm not, again, read what I said, and then tell me why it's beside the point? the books superpower MC, they conflict with his onscreen demonstrated ability... Then you want to use those abilities for all theiur worth in debates... yet despite all the advantages he might have in the books, they still don't win him the majority because of Nukem's tech, which is what I was explaining to Xenogears.

Originally posted by DarkC
He's actually close to dead on, from what I make of it.

thats overhype, prove it or lose it

Originally posted by DarkC
The games tend to be single-platformed and lacking variety of demonstrations in comparison to the books, but nonetheless it is still correct so far.

No it's not, you havn't proven it by any stretch. And if your looking for clear cut demonstrations, then refer to the gamescutscenes... cheif's most impressive feat is falling from great height into the Gravemind's tendrils.

Originally posted by DarkC
Having all four Halo books in my personal collection and having read them multiple times, as well as owning both games as well, you better know what the hell you are talking about before shooting your mouth off like that.

I do, so please don't presume to think you know what I know.

Originally posted by DarkC
'Stupendously overpowered' or not, it's the truth. Because you assume that it is too overpowered makes it untruth?
Absolutely not. And by the way, it wasn't in the books. It's in the game manual.

Alright, for the sake of argument, then lets assume you are correct, why is it that he simply CaNNOT accomplish these feats in thegame at all ever?

Originally posted by DarkC
The weight of a Scorpion MBT is exactly 66 tons. Considering he has to use every single muscle in his body for that and that his arm alone can easily heft 250kg without any real effort, I'd say it was quite accurate.

He indeed has the strength to flip tanks. End of story.

Read to me where I said he cannot flip them? Quote it in huge bold letters...

Can't do it? hmm

Then perhaps you would like to read what I said again... I said he cannot LIFT them, he cannot bench-press them... and if he had a 66 tonne lifting range, then the Scorpion would be within that limit, yet he cannot do it.

Originally posted by DarkC
That takes the fun out of everything. You have either everything in the believable range or in the ultra-unrealistic range, everything in between kind of blows.
The fact remains is that if you can make something set hundreds of years in the future and still battling aliens plausible, then it's a good game.

You misunderstand what I said... Realistic as itmay seem... running at 50MPH and lifting 66 tonnes is definitely not realistic, nor is battling aliens with plasma weaponry.

Originally posted by DarkC
And I believe Newtonian physics would still last into the future, thanks. No denying that.

Then MC should be crushed by the weight of the tank, since he his considerably lighter than said tank... and he cannot run at the speeds the book claimed since it is physically impossiblefora biped to move that fast unless he is over 40 meters tall.

Originally posted by DarkC
Half-Life 2 is far more believable than the first one is, simply because it's more in real-time and slower than the first game.
Even so, there's still one sequence in Halo where it is nice and quick, and that's when the Flood starts swarming you from every direction. You seem to have forgotten that.

I havn't forgotten it, but it's still considerably slower than the books claim.

Originally posted by DarkC
You compared it to Duke because that's the thread? No, that's no excuse at all to avoid my question.

I avoided nothing by following the thread thanks... there are other versions of Duke besides Duke 3D.

Originally posted by DarkC
I asked you a question regarding solely use of literature as a source, I didn't say anything regarding Duke's abilities. You took my argument out of context and now you're trying to cover it up by saying that it's the original purpose of the thread.

Then prove where I took it out of context, since you jumped into an argument with both feet before reading what I said.

Remember, you made the separate argument, not me... I can argue Dukes victory wth or without the book's evidence because of Dukes Superior Tech.

Originally posted by DarkC
I believe you already stated that the primary debate was over anyways, earlier.

That is thrue, however, Xeno dug it up from the depths of 2 year old hell. So clearly, someone has to have something new to add, or is that wishful thinking on my part and I just have to repeat the same argument?

Originally posted by DarkC
I'm offering explanations to some of the game mechanics involved.
So far you can't deny them and simply tag them as 'excuses'.

Yes Ican, because gameplay mechanics arn't admissable in a debate... you have to PROVE that that is what it is.

Originally posted by DarkC
Once you offer in-game contradictions that I can't

Your simply trying to explain away what is clearly there as a mechanic of the game... If this was the case, they could easily have added a sprint function, made MC ableto lift huge peicesof equipment and/or terrain, and made him gibb everyone he hit with a CQC attack besides Elites, Brutes and Spartans.

Originally posted by DarkC
Yes, actually, he would. Any skilled soldier learns to conserve his strength as best as possible while getting the job done.

Copout... it's a video game dude, remember that.

Originally posted by DarkC
A time limit? The only thing that had an actual time limit in both games is the final level of Halo, the Maw. And there were Warthogs for that one.

There are an astounding number of vehicles found in the levels of both games, actually. In those cases, only the idiots run through.

If you do it would have an effect on your aim. Don't ignore that.

Counter-strike, as an example has three speeds of movement, crouching, walking and running. While running your aim goes haywire. Call of Duty and Gears of War don't even show a targeting reticle when you're running.

On the other hand, the Master Chief's reticle and weapon profile stays the same no matter what speed he is moving at in the games. He's moving relatively fast compared to UNSC soldiers, but he's still moving slow enough to keep perfect aim.

So then, Duke can move at very high speeds while maintaining perfect aim, while MCis reduced to a jog permanently to maintain his firing control... I can live with that restriction in the debate.

Originally posted by DarkC
The games are a primary source, correct, but so are the pieces of literature that were printed and written as a result of these games, at least in the case of Halo.
Bungie pretty much wrote the rough plot themselves, outlined the characters and included notes, and gave it to someone else to develop. Eric Nylund, most of the time. That's how video game novels are written, Darkstorm.

Which doesn't mean squat at all. Consider this, if I where to go and design and build a game, Ihave all the plot characters and story I want. then I go ahead, hand all that stuff over to someone else, and asked them to formulate some books based on that stuff, who is to say that didn't change anything?

Or, for another example, why on earth would they have written all this stuff, then not reflect those capabilities accurately in the games? Gameplay restrictionhardly exists anymore, they can do whatever they want...

Originally posted by DarkC
Considering the process, I would say that yes, it would be still as legitimate as what happened in the games. You still haven't done anything to prove me wrong.

Hardly... look, you know as well as I do that the abilities don't match, the speed argument could easily have been disuaded by the use of a sprint function, if that where the case. But the Strength thing on the other hand... Thats an entirely different ball-game, since I know for a fact MC isn't bench-pressing 66 tonnes. Turning a tank over, and actually lifting it are two entirely different things.

Originally posted by DarkC
I know what I've read and what I've played match if I think it through a little.
I've read the books pretty much countless times each and and own the game. Where's your credibility?

I too own both games and the books. thank you very much..

Originally posted by DarkC
Basically what I'm reading here is you repeating something over and over without any real backup.
Remember what I said earlier. It isn't going to make it any more of a fact.

And remember what I said before Your not disproving anything either...

I have all the backup I require to prove my case DarkC. you choosing to ignore it is well and truly not my fault.

Originally posted by DarkC
Yes actually, that was a remarkably condescending statement of yours earlier, however madly you try to dress it up.

Let's have a look at what you wrote earlier.

I might have worded a little bit differently, but all in all, it's basically the same thing.

No it's not, I said that based on your arguments, you don't get that consession... You beleive I stated something else entirely, then said you don't get it or something...

One thing you've got to learn, I don't take what other people may or may not think for granted.

Originally posted by DarkC
Yes, I have. Having read your post that claimed that the main debate was over, I went to bring something up you had said earlier and clarify that.
I asked you to prove that they directly contradict each other.

And I did, he doesn't lift 66 tonnes, nor does he run at any point in the game at those speeds while healthy, let alone while injured. Oh,andMC dies with a singe rocket hit, this means his durability is also in conflict.

Originally posted by DarkC
You've provided points that I've explained and arguments that I've refuted. That doesn't make what you said fact. You're trying to prove something you stated here. I'm not.
Once you've provided a point that I cannot possibly say "I refuse", then it's fact.

You decide what is fact now? really...? I could have sworn thatfacts are so by their own right... lets have a look shall we?

Fact#1: MC never lifts the Scorpion or any other heavy object in-game (Contradicts his 66 tonne lifting claim.)
Fact#2: MC never ever runs over 50MPH in-game (Contradicts his foot speed claim.

Originally posted by DarkC
I never accused you of that.

However, unless you've read the books multiple times despite what others have been saying, I don't think you are in a position at all to judge whether or not something contradicts. Which is why I brought it up in the first place.

And yet right here, you are trying to either judge my credibility, or tear into it, neither of which is very becoming of you

Originally posted by DarkC
Ah, but you did seem to believe the main debate was over anyways, remember? You're basically avoiding my question here by dragging up the main topic.

Nonetheless my arguments are not entirely off topic. It pertains as to the Chief's abilities that he can use. Try not to use subject relevance as an excuse.

Or lack thereof, as appears to be the actual case.

Subject relevance isentirely up to the discretion of the poster apparently.

However, since the books are still in question, why not actually providing a legitimate reason for their use in a debate designed to compare games instead of literature? And after that, explain why they should be used in place of the games demonstrated abilities? why should we give MC these high end showings instead of the games showings?

I have seen all sorts of bull come out of Halo Fans during the Samus vs MC thread, the Elites vs Predators thread and this one... A lot of Haloites will use as many unsolicited advantages as they can to see their characters win.

Originally posted by DarkC
If there's a viable explanation, I will provide it.

I suggest you try and find a logical reasoning why Chief would start whacking his own teammates.
In the meantime, read my earlier post to BlaxicanHydra.

It's called gameplay... it's not like those guys are of much help dude... especially on Heroic and Legendary. And yet even with those circumstances, it doesn't excuse the Grunts Jackals and Drones surviving a single hit, let alone one with 66 tonne force.

With that much power, those guys should be reduced to half a square mile of fishpaste in a single hit.

Originally posted by DarkC
Trying to kill your own teammates is a direct contradiction to the plot and game itself.
Beats the hell out of me why you're attempting to use it as proof.

Oh, and try not to tell me to repress arguments. Bad form.
Cannot refute your argument? I believe I did already.

Oh please, you explained only half of it, and even then it's a gameplay mechanic.

Originally posted by DarkC
Yes, and I don't think automatically using Legendary, the hardest difficulty setting as your primary vessel of "realism", is the smartest thing to do.

In a theoretical debate, we always use the hardest difficulty of any game we choose to debate, there's no point in debating anything less. This was done a very long time ago, so we can debate all the characters at their very best.

Quit bitching Darkstorm. Just let it go.

Originally posted by Xenogears
Quit bitching Darkstorm. Just let it go.

Bitching?

Hows about you digging up 2 year old threads, then claiming that the books are canon?

Why don't you and the rest of the Haloites let it go?

Correct. The knee jerk over hype that the Chief receives in this forum is what made me stop debating here for a long time.

Because you use different kinds of muscles when doing those things, has that ever occurred to you?

Irrelevant. If your that strong, you only need to punch. Spiderman actually held back his punch and still knocked Flash Thompson out, and he's barely half as strong as the books make the Chief out to be. Plus, he did all that with a job. He's not using almost any muscles.

When a tank is lifted it requires not only arm strength, but legs as well, upper body, lower body, back, the whole shebang.

But we're not talking about a Tank, are we? We're talking about, ya know, flesh. And in Halo 2 when you melee attack you dash forward and hit them, so he's not "jogging", he's actually throwing his body, momentum, and force forward. Adding to that his supposed strength he should be able to crush an elites skull with ease. Hell, when you punch a warthog it should fly forward or at least rock violently.

Bungie apparently were just too lazy to include lifting animations for the vehicles.

Excuses. As far as I and quite a lot of other people are concerned, flipping vehicles is just a game mechanic to make up for the game engine they were using, which allowed vehicles to actually fly around.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I didn';t say it couldn't be used as a reference, but for it to take the place of onscreen evidence? no mate, it's not on... That opens up all sorts of nasty sh!t, including non-canon stuff for all other characters.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No I'm not, again, read what I said, and then tell me why it's beside the point? the books superpower MC, they conflict with his onscreen demonstrated ability... Then you want to use those abilities for all theiur worth in debates... yet despite all the advantages he might have in the books, they still don't win him the majority because of Nukem's tech, which is what I was explaining to Xenogears.

Basically here you are bringing it up for no foreseeable reason simply to prove some point about him triumphing over the Chief. Congratulations, you’re proved that a parody character stocked to the gills with testosterone, a huge arsenal of weapons, game concepts that don’t at all seem to follow biological science or Newtonian physics triumphs over one that does follow rules and has a limited arsenal. That’s top billing in the obituary for Chief. Absolutely ridiculous match-up, far too lopsided. The only person that I would really pit against some parody of human machismo like Nukem is hey, another parody of human machismo. Like Serious Sam, maybe.

You’ve proved a point completely out of hand from what I am trying to discuss. You’re making an attempt at avoiding my question by steering the topic away from what I actually brought up in the first place.

I don’t think I really need to remind you what I’m trying to make you prove here.

I believe I made it clear that I was referring to only Chief, only his abilities and how they pertain to the books. It’d be nice if you actually kept what I’m trying to say to discuss without redirecting it to the original discussion for some reason.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
thats overhype, prove it or lose it

You have not provided a point to which I cannot possibly say, “I disagree”. Until then the burden of proof is on you.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No it's not, you havn't proven it by any stretch. And if your looking for clear cut demonstrations, then refer to the gamescutscenes... cheif's most impressive feat is falling from great height into the Gravemind's tendrils.

There’s a reason why I included the words “So far”. Because so far, you haven’t provided a point of irrefutable evidence that concludes the fact that the books overpower the Master Chief.

To you? His greatest feat in the games is falling into the ocean into Gravemind’s grasp? There’s more than that.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I do, so please don't presume to think you know what I know.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
[b]Alright, for the sake of argument, then lets assume you are correct, why is it that he simply CaNNOT accomplish these feats in thegame at all ever?

His in-game speed is a mild jog, intended to maintain a precise and perfect aim in a target-rich environment. Done.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Read to me where I said he cannot flip them? Quote it in huge bold letters...

Can't do it? Hmm

Then perhaps you would like to read what I said again... I said he cannot [b]LIFT them, he cannot bench-press them... and if he had a 66 tonne lifting range, then the Scorpion would be within that limit, yet he cannot do it.[/b]

And I believe he still had the ability to do it in the first Halo.
In the books he didn’t have the opportunity nor the need to flip a tank.
What’s your point?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
You misunderstand what I said... Realistic as itmay seem... running at 50MPH and lifting 66 tonnes is definitely not realistic, nor is battling aliens with plasma weaponry.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
[b]Then MC should be crushed by the weight of the tank, since he his considerably lighter than said tank... and he cannot run at the speeds the book claimed since it is physically impossible for a biped to move that fast unless he is over 40 meters tall.

Considering the bracing strength of his armour, the fact that his skeleton is virtually unbreakable, and his metal-hard musculature, it’s pretty damn unlikely that he’d be crushed. If a Spartan can survive a five-mile high fall without parasails and be able to retain consciousness, I don’t think he’d be crushed by a mere tank.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I havn't forgotten it, but it's still considerably slower than the books claim.

It’s actually one book, not plural, and it’s a direct in-game event novelization of the game, by Deitz. Meaning he writes exactly what he plays, but he chose to include a side story as well. With some guidance from the folks back at Bungie, of course.

It matches the speed exactly.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I avoided nothing by following the thread thanks... there are other versions of Duke besides Duke 3D.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Then prove where I took it out of context, since you jumped into an argument with both feet before reading what I said.

There’s my proof.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Remember, you made the separate argument, not me... I can argue Dukes victory wth or without the book's evidence because of Dukes Superior Tech.

I never once said that he would not win against Chief. I’m arguing the point you made about the book-to-game concepts, remember? You were arguing that they contradicted each other when you have not provided a reasonable explanation why.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
That is thrue, however, Xeno dug it up from the depths of 2 year old hell. So clearly, someone has to have something new to add, or is that wishful thinking on my part and I just have to repeat the same argument?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Yes Ican, because gameplay mechanics arn't admissable in a debate... you have to PROVE that that is what it is.

No, remember. You have the burden of proof. You’re supposed to find a piece of evidence that I cannot possibly refuse. Don’t forget that.

I said that they were explanations, not proof.

Excuses? Excuses for what?
For example, the fact that he chooses to jog and keep his aim rock steady instead of sprinting isn’t an excuse. It’s hard fact. It’s what happens in the game.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Your simply trying to explain away what is clearly there as a mechanic of the game... If this was the case, they could easily have added a sprint function, made MC ableto lift huge peicesof equipment and/or terrain, and made him gibb everyone he hit with a CQC attack besides Elites, Brutes and Spartans.

The fact that the Elites are pretty much his technological equal should be proof that this game isn’t a cakewalk. While they didn’t add the sprint function, he didn’t need it in the circumstances he was thrust in, in the first place.

Whenever he needed speed there were vehicles, remember? For the most part. And if it was a long walk, there’s a veritable wall of enemies trying to stop him, sprinting would only prolong the inevitable anyways. Better to kill and thin the forces first.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Copout... it's a video game dude, remember that.

Look back to my realism rant above.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
So then, Duke can move at very high speeds while maintaining perfect aim, while MCis reduced to a jog permanently to maintain his firing control... I can live with that restriction in the debate.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Which doesn't mean squat at all. Consider this, if I where to go and design and build a game, Ihave all the plot characters and story I want. then I go ahead, hand all that stuff over to someone else, and asked them to formulate some books based on that stuff, who is to say that didn't change anything?

Bungie doesn’t let Nylund publish without their official permission. Once Nylund signs a contract, he’s under obligation to follow Bungie’s orders to write their book to the letter. Remember, it may be Nylund writing but it’s Bungie’s baby. If Nylund did something they didn’t like and refuses to change it, he’s not only fired, but liable for charges too for violation of terms of agreement.

You also have to think of the amount of drafts there are. There’s storyline, plot notes, first draft and edit, second draft and edit, final manuscript, the whole shitload. Believe me, I’ve a friend who’s an author.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Or, for another example, why on earth would they have written all this stuff, then not reflect those capabilities accurately in the games? Gameplay restrictionhardly exists anymore, they can do whatever they want...

Refer to the ‘vehicle flipping option’ I talked about above. Their decisions are everything. You don’t need to sprint (like in Gears of War where cover was extremely vital) because there’s a lack of open space. And whenever there was open space, there were vehicles.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Hardly... look, you know as well as I do that the abilities don't match

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
the speed argument could easily have been disuaded by the use of a sprint function,

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
if that where the case. But the Strength thing on the other hand... Thats an entirely different ball-game, since I know for a fact MC isn't bench-pressing 66 tonnes. Turning a tank over, and actually lifting it are two entirely different things.

However, if you have participated in particularly heavy lifting you would know that lifting an unusually large object, a tank in this case, cannot be lifted efficiently with use of only your arms and shoulders. Legs, deltoids, gluts. Bench pressing only uses the arms.

He can’t bench-press a tank, but he can sure as hell lift it.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I too own both games and the books. thank you very much..

Having the kind of accuracy to ride a bomb through a bay decompression in the In Amber Clad, destroying a Covenant Cruiser in the process, and landing back on the ‘Clad, for example.

Riding a transfer beam headfirst at dizzying speed and landing safely in the Forerunner Ship. Those were actions that weren’t as awe-inspiring as in the books, but still physically possible with his capabilities and technology.

They’re really hard to miss out as great achievements if you did play the game. Either you’re lying, your memory is fogged over from not having played the Campaign in a while, or you’re simply far too negative.

Okay. If you do own the books….would you please tell me the very first species of Covenant that he encountered, SPARTAN-059’s name, and ONI’s catchphrase.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
And remember what I said before Your not disproving anything either...

I have all the backup I require to prove my case DarkC. you choosing to ignore it is well and truly not my fault.

Ah, begging the question here, are we? Resorting to logical fallacy now?
No matter, seen it before.

Point still remains. Here’s how burden of proof works.
Person A(Me) asks Person B(You) to prove Point A.
Person B is now tasked with proving to Person A that Point A exists.

You’ve provided arguments, true, but I have provided explanations or pointed out faulty logic where necessary in those points that you did bring up. On the other hand, what you do with my counter-arguments is simply dismiss them as ‘excuses’ and label them as negligible.

You are proving here.
I am explaining.
It is not that hard to understand.
[quote]Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No it's not, I said that based on your arguments, you don't get that consession... You beleive I stated something else entirely, then said you don't get it or something...

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
And I did, he doesn't lift 66 tonnes, nor does he run at any point in the game at those speeds while healthy, let alone while injured. Oh,andMC dies with a singe rocket hit, this means his durability is also in conflict.

He doesn’t need to run and waste energy while there’s some perfectly good and heavily armed vehicles nearby. Why sprint when you can hitch a ride in a Ghost with heavy twin-linked plasma guns?

There’s my explanation. Where’s yours?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
You decide what is fact now? really...? I could have sworn thatfacts are so by their own right... lets have a look shall we?

I just happen to have the ability to tell between both. I don’t make facts up.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Fact#1: MC never lifts the Scorpion or any other heavy object in-game (Contradicts his 66 tonne lifting claim.)

In the first one vehicles were technically indestructible but prone to flippage, including tanks.
“Press X to Flip Scorpion.”

In the second one, vehicles were destructable. If you let it get enough damage as to somehow flip it, you’re either already dead or the tank’s too trashed already to continue further service. In the off event that you drove it off a ledge (Which can only really happen in one level of the second game), you could still flip it.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Fact#2: MC never ever runs over 50MPH in-game (Contradicts his foot speed claim.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
And yet right here, you are trying to either judge my credibility, or tear into it, neither of which is very becoming of you

Or lack thereof, as appears to be the actual case.

You fail to remember outstanding details from previous games that you claimed to own.
Why do you think I’m judging you in the first place? I wouldn’t have if you didn’t start showing it.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Subject relevance is entirely up to the discretion of the poster apparently.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
However, since the books are still in question, why not actually providing a legitimate reason for their use in a debate designed to compare games instead of literature?

And characters have their own respective stories, Master Chief having books to further explain his exploits and adventures and to provide players with a background of his abilities and achievements. If Nukem had his books I wouldn’t refute your ability to use them in a character vs. character debate.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
And after that, explain why they should be used in place of the games demonstrated abilities? why should we give MC these high end showings instead of the games showings?

As I said earlier, I’m not trying to separate the books from the games, but to bring them together. High end and game are also the same for people who have read the books and are willing to put some thought into some of the game mechanics.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
A lot of Haloites will use as many unsolicited advantages as they can to see their characters win.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
It's called gameplay... it's not like those guys are of much help dude... especially on Heroic and Legendary. And yet even with those circumstances, it doesn't excuse the Grunts Jackals and Drones surviving a single hit, let alone one with 66 tonne force

With that much power, those guys should be reduced to half a square mile of fishpaste in a single hit..

Arming a group of Elites during the quarantine zone with the right weapons, you can actually stand back and let them do all the work. I’ve done it before. Two shotguns, two Sentinel Beams and a swordsman. They mow the Flood down like chaff before a wind.

66 ton force isn’t with one fist. It’s using all the muscles in the body, all 600-800 of them.
Punching doesn’t even use half of that.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Oh please, you explained only half of it, and even then it's a gameplay mechanic.

“Oops!”

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
In a theoretical debate, we always use the hardest difficulty of any game we choose to debate, there's no point in debating anything less. This was done a very long time ago, so we can debate all the characters at their very best.

If, say, Nukem had a level where you got sneezed on and died, would you accept that as realistic?
In Legendary Halo, if a UNSC Helljumper can take more heat than the Master Chief, it can’t exactly be referred to as the most ‘realistic’ style of play, can it?

Until now I've yet to see how Duke is in any way better than the Chief. Let's go over a couple of things;

Who's obviously stronger? Chief.

Who's obviously faster? Chief.

Who obviously has greater durability? Chief.

Who obviously has the better reaction time? Chief.

Let's have Nukem and the Chief equipped with a pair of pistols. The fight starts; Master Chief immediately shoots the b*tch in the face. The match ends with Chief being crowned as the winner.

Case dismissed.

Originally posted by BlaxicanHydra
Irrelevant. If your that strong, you only need to punch.

Originally posted by BlaxicanHydra
Spiderman actually held back his punch and still knocked Flash Thompson out, and he's barely half as strong as the books make the Chief out to be. Plus, he did all that with a job. He's not using almost any muscles.

Spidey’s supposed to be a superhero, with the abilities of a spider; if I remember correctly, spiders are many times stronger, relatively, than a human. Remember the second movie where he has to hold a huge ass wall up from an oblique angle to save MJ?

Now which do you think weighs more, a complete wall from some museum building or a Scorpion MBT?

Exactly.

It’s a Marvel Comic Book, and realism is not really supposed to be a virtue.
You cannot accurately compare ‘Spidey’ powers to the augmentations that the Master Chief received.

Originally posted by BlaxicanHydra
But we're not talking about a Tank, are we? We're talking about, ya know, flesh. And in Halo 2 when you melee attack you dash forward and hit them, so he's not "jogging",

There’s no “Dash” forward in the game other than the Sword Lock on, and that’s accepted as extremely massive damage.

Originally posted by BlaxicanHydra
He's actually throwing his body, momentum, and force forward.

If you watch your teammate during co-op with a rifle in hand and standing still, do you see his feet move when he takes a whack? No.

Originally posted by BlaxicanHydra
Adding to that his supposed strength he should be able to crush an elites skull with ease

Originally posted by BlaxicanHydra
Hell, when you punch a warthog it should fly forward or at least rock violently.

A single punch from Chief’s relatively small fist to the Warthog is only a single point of instantaneous impact and isn’t going to do much from a single punch, despite his strength. It’s also an all terrain light reconnaissance vehicle, which includes shocks for rocking.

Originally posted by BlaxicanHydra
Excuses. As far as I and quite a lot of other people are concerned, flipping vehicles is just a game mechanic to make up for the game engine they were using, which allowed vehicles to actually fly around.

I’ve already explained to Darkstorm that Bungie decided to program the concept rather than be even more lazy and leave it out. In their view Chief is strong enough to do that.
They could have very easily chose to screw players over if they crashed and flipped a vehicle by accident.

The fact that they were simply too lazy to make all the flipping animations doesn’t change the fact that you can do it.

If we want to use the books, that is fine with me, though I'm not 100% sure it's accurate with the rules of this and several other forums, but that's fine by me.

Originally posted by Xenogears
Until now I've yet to see how Duke is in any way better than the Chief. Let's go over a couple of things;

Who's obviously stronger? Chief.

Who's obviously faster? Chief.

Who obviously has greater durability? Chief.

Who obviously has the better reaction time? Chief.

Let's have Nukem and the Chief equipped with a pair of pistols. The fight starts; Master Chief immediately shoots the b*tch in the face. The match ends with Chief being crowned as the winner.

Case dismissed.

By thread rules, Duke wins.