Duke Nukem Vs. Master Chief

It's really sad how often some posters just refuse to read properly...

Where did I say he couldn't tip the Scorpion? - Nowhere

I said explicitly that he couldn't LIFT the darn thing... Tipping and lifting are two entirely different things... He can't bench them... he can't millitary press them, he can't pick itup over his head. 66 tonne lifting strength my ass... he'donly require a third of that to flip the tank, hell, I can flip a car on it's roof by myself, does that mean I can lift said car over my head?

As for the speed thing, I've made my case... your explanation is nothing but a copout in a very vague and bad attempt to cover yourself.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
It's really sad how often some posters just refuse to read properly...

You've taken many of my posts out of context, you've ignored a lot of the things I said, and also misinterpreted many of my explanations.

You're pretty much avoiding the fact that you yourself need to learn to read my posts properly by thrusting the very same accusation I made at you first right back in my face.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Where did I say he couldn't tip the Scorpion? - Nowhere

This doesn't change anything and your point is still moot; nowhere in the books and games does it list him as being able to crawl underneath a tank and bracing the entire thing on his back.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
He can't bench them... he can't millitary press them, he can't pick itup over his head.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
66 tonne lifting strength my ass... he'donly require a third of that to flip the tank, hell, I can flip a car on it's roof by myself, does that mean I can lift said car over my head?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
As for the speed thing, I've made my case... your explanation is nothing but a copout in a very vague and bad attempt to cover yourself.

You brought it up and listed it as an ambiguity, which I explained thoroughly. You've so far failed to show why my explanation is moot, and now you're using typical escapism from that particular part of the discussion by simply cutting it aside.

Dismissing it as 'copout' isn't going to cut it out, Darkstorm, at all. You need to give me a good explanation, without repeating the point over and over again, why my explanation should be refuted.

Thats bullshit pure and simple... I know MC can't lift it, tipping it surte, but he can't lift it... therefore he doesn't have anything to demonstrate 66 tone LIFTING strength.

Tipping the tank doesn't require that much strength anyways, since most of the weight would be counterbalanced by the fact that it would remain in contact with the ground. the only thing required by the time MC got some of the tank off the ground is momentum.

Originally posted by DarkC
Sure, if you had the training for it you could balance a mini on your head by itself. It's been done before.

Pure comedy gold... NOBODY has ever lifed a mini over their heads with just their hands on their own. Balancing a mini on your head is irrelevant.

-As for the speed thing- Tell me something, if your so damn sure it was a game mechanic, then why not add in the sprint function, or at least have MC move at a faster jog than regular human FPS heroes like the Doom guy in Doom 3 who at least has a sprint function...

I brought up the fact that he moves fairly slow in the games, and much slower than the Books indicated... Your explanation is "He jogs during the game"... This is very obviously a copout statement that has absolutely no proof or anything solid behind it whatsoever... in light of most recent FPS having a sprint function, there is no excuses for it either.

Oh, and BTW DarkC... Do not try to tell me how to debate... if you cannot see what I post, then don't bother debating with me.... I am not repeating myself because I enjoy it... I am doing it because you fail to read what I say.

I have not ignored anything, nor have I taken anything out of context, And I read your posts just fine. You've decided to defend the books validity as a canon source in a Videogame vs Forum. whereas I disagree because i beleive (And have sofar demonstrated) that there are discrepencies bitween the books and the games. in which case, as the VG vs Forum, games must take absolute priority.

If it was a more standardised debate that didn't require we take the games as absolute canon, I wouldn't even be arguing this... But for debates like that, I go over to Spacebattles.com

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Thats bullshit pure and simple... I know MC can't lift it, tipping it surte, but he can't lift it... therefore he doesn't have anything to demonstrate 66 tone LIFTING strength.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
[b]Pure comedy gold... NOBODY has ever lifed a mini over their heads with just their hands on their own. And that's irrelevant.

I said balancing using their neck. And that's been done before.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
-As for the speed thing- Tell me something, if your so damn sure it was a game mechanic, then why not add in the sprint function

Bungie didn't add a sprint function, mainly because they don't need to. They added vehicles. After all, why have a perfectly good soldier waste their energy when they can just hop in a Warthog and drive through the Covenant rather than having to waste ammo on them?

There is very few times that the Chief really needs to actively sprint, and almost all of those moments he could have simply driven something there.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
or at least have MC move at a faster jog than regular human FPS heroes like the Doom guy in Doom 3 who at least has a sprint function...

I've played both games and there is very little, if any, difference between the jog speeds of both Chief and the marine from Doom.

Here's a simple comparison, just for kicks.

Doom
YouTube video
Halo
YouTube video

If anything, the Master Chief moves slightly faster than the Doom Marine.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I brought up the fact that he moves fairly slow in the games, and much slower than the Books indicated...Your explanation is "He jogs during the game"

It isn't that hard to understand.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
This is very obviously a copout statement that has absolutely no proof or anything solid behind it whatsoever

It's very clear that if you watch his movement with someone playing on Campaign Co-operation mode, he only moves at a light jog. That's irrefutable. He doesn't sprint at all. I stated what I see, I don't make things up from scratch.

Another thing is, nowhere in the books does it say that the Master Chief maintains a perfect and rock solid firing aim while moving any faster.

Provide me with a clear and irrefutable explanation why is isn't copout. Declaring it so won't make it so.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
in light of most recent FPS having a sprint function, there is no excuses for it either.

Where in 'other' FPS games that had a sprint function could the player have frequently chosen to hop onto a vehicle instead of pounding it through on foot?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Oh, and BTW DarkC... Do not try to tell me how to debate... if you cannot see what I post, then don't bother debating with me

Take it how you will, because I will continue to do that as I see fit.

If you choose to ignore what I tell you at those junctures, such as for exmaple don't use faulty logic, learn to read my posts properly and such, then hey, go ahead. Use faulty logic. Fail to read my posts properly and between the lines.

See? Not a good idea.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
.... I am not repeating myself because I enjoy it... I am doing it because you fail to read what I say.

You have misunderstood me to the point where I've had to repeatedly explain multiple concepts that are relatively simple.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I have not ignored anything

That's not failing to ignore a simple little thing, you've failed to acknowledge an entire shitload of arguments on my behalf. Saying that you haven't ignored anything here is like saying, for example, that you have not spilt a drop of water when in fact you accidentally flooded the basement of a building.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
nor have I taken anything out of context

As stated before, you're choosing to bring up Nukem in times and places where the conflict itself is irrelevant, just the abilities that the Chief can use in that conflict. Nothing to do with Nukem at all, remember?

That, is irrefutable evidence right there that you have been taking at least a few things out of context. There is no denying that.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
And I read your posts just fine.

See above. If you had actually read my previous posts, I wouldn't have to repeat myself.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
You've decided to defend the books validity as a canon source in a Videogame vs Forum.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
whereas I disagree because i beleive (And have sofar demonstrated) that there are discrepencies bitween the books and the games.

Proof? I'm still here having to repeat my explanations and arguments, after explaining how your list of ambiguities aren't technically inrrefutable discrepancies.

You have so far failed to fully acknowledge those explanations and go back to the main point/explanation which you brought up and repeat it.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
in which case, as the VG vs Forum, games must take absolute priority.

1. This forum is Video Game Versus. Therefore, all characters in the match must originate in a video game - simply appearing in one is not good enough!

I'm not arguing that the games are high priority, they are. I'm arguing that the books are AS canon as the games.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
If it was a more standardised debate that didn't require we take the games as absolute canon, I wouldn't even be arguing this... But for debates like that, I go over to Spacebattles.com

Originally posted by DarkC
Oh, stop being such a raging hypocrite. The same thing can be said about you.
I have misunderstood you once.

You have misunderstood me to the point where I've had to repeatedly explain multiple concepts that are relatively simple.

Hypocrite? for what? staying on topic? Or defending my rite to explain the rules?

You have made me repeat myself numerous times, yet when I do it, you say "I'm just bringing up the same point"

Whereas when you do it 'Your misunderstanding..."

Yeah, who's the condecending hypocrite now?

Originally posted by DarkC
You failed to reply to my last batch of posts, didn't you?

That's not failing to ignore a simple little thing, you've failed to acknowledge an entire shitload of arguments on my behalf. Saying that you haven't ignored anything here is like saying, for example, that you have not spilt a drop of water when in fact you accidentally flooded the basement of a building.

I did that simply because we where getting into 3 post long quote wars. I did read it, and I didn't dignify it with a formal response because of this:

Originally posted by DarkC
Okay. If you do own the books….would you please tell me the very first species of Covenant that he encountered, SPARTAN-059’s name, and ONI’s catchphrase.

You have absolutely no right trying to test me in any way shape or form... I couldeasily have ended the argument right there based on inflammatory remarks.

Originally posted by DarkC
Um, yes you have. Repeatedly.

As stated before, you're choosing to bring up Nukem in times and places where the conflict itself is irrelevant, just the abilities that the Chief can use in that conflict. Nothing to do with Nukem at all, remember?

That, is irrefutable evidence right there that you have been taking at least a few things out of context. There is no denying that.

You still apparently didn't read what I said before about the books being irrelevant to Duke's victory...

Not to mention the fact that the comparative I drew was not based on the debate itself, I was using it to demonstrate why cheif was slow and weak compared to his book incarnation... you simply threw it out as irrelevantbased on it being a comparison.

Originally posted by DarkC
Evidence of your actions so far seems to disagree with that.

See above. If you had actually read my previous posts, I wouldn't have to repeat myself.

Read above... you call me a hypocrite, yet have a go at me for doing the exact same thing, despite the fact that you havn't provided anything concrete in your defence beside "He's jogging" and "He needs all that strength to TIP the tank"... I ask you to prove it.

Originally posted by DarkC
Correct. At least one point has been driven through your head.

Condecendance right there... DarkC, go away from this debate, your contribution is lackluster...

Originally posted by DarkC
You haven't demonstrated anything at all, Darkstorm.

Proof? I'm still here having to repeat my explanations and arguments, after explaining how your list of ambiguities aren't technically inrrefutable discrepancies.

You have so far failed to fully acknowledge those explanations and go back to the main point/explanation which you brought up and repeat it.

Read Lana's rule. Simply disobeying it is not taking games into absolute priority.

I did read the rule... that doesn't cover what happens when it crosses primary canon boundries, nor does it provide a license to simply pick up the highest showing and run with it, this is the VIDEO GAME VS... where the games are THE definitive source.

I don't care if your here to sniff the dasies, thats not my problem... A point doesn't require itself to be irrefutable, not now, and not ever, especially if it's from the primary source.

Your explanations require proof, I have the proof ffrom the games, you have words that you, I oranyone else can write at their lesure... until it is backed by something, what do you suggest I take it as?

Originally posted by DarkC
I'm not arguing that the games are high priority, they are. I'm arguing that the books are AS canon as the games.

And I ask again, based on what? we see the discrepencies in the game in comparison, so why should we use the abilities described in the book as opposed to those demonstrated within the game?

Originally posted by DarkC
I don't really care about your other debates, or debate sites, Darkstorm.
Fortunately, we're in KMC, not Spacebattles.

Again, you failed to read whatI said properly... I said, I amhere on MC VGvs forums to debate game characters as they are in the games, if I wanted literature debates clogging that up, THEN I would go to SpabeBattles.Com and do it there...

Please learn to read...

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Hypocrite? for what? staying on topic? Or defending my rite to explain the rules?

I misunderstood you on on one topic, and you've done it multiple times.
And yet you accuse me of being a hypocrite?

Ludicrous, to say the least.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
You have made me repeat myself numerous times, yet when I do it, you say "I'm just bringing up the same point"

You basically drag up a point and explain it.
I provide an explanation on how this point can be addressed and why it isn't a violation on book-to-game relative events.
Instead of developing on these explanations that I've provided and attempting to prove that they are false, for some reason you simply go back to the original point and argument and repeat it.

Which is why I've had to repeat myself numerous times, and which resulted in circular argument.

See? Not hard to understand.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Whereas when you do it 'Your misunderstanding..."

If you're misunderstanding my point, which you've been clearly doing frequently, I'll tell you. That point, at least, isn't a case of being condescending when I say that first and explain why you are not understanding my point.
However, it is if I said something like that and left it as is, something like that could be just labelled dismissive.
Like what you did earlier on, remember?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Yeah, who's the condecending hypocrite now?

Even a little hypocritic at times, but at least not in the raging forms you demonstrate.

Pointing the finger back at me doesn't work.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I did that simply because we where getting into 3 post long quote wars.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I did read it, and I didn't dignify it with a formal response because of this:

If that was the case, I can't believe it until you prove it, which is why I asked you three simple questions to get you to prove your credibility. If you did own the books as you said, all you'd have to do is flip through. Saying that it isn't my right is to me, only a poor excuse.

And by the way, two out of the three of those questions could have been answered using Halopedia.

Originally posted by Darkstorm zero
You have absolutely no right trying to test me in any way shape or form

I have the right to try to test you. I can't force you if you don't want to, because it's your right to choose to accept or not.

Even so, if you hadn't answered your credibility still is nonexistant at this juncture.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I couldeasily have ended the argument right there based on inflammatory remarks.

Using that might be idiosyncratic, but it's legit mainly.
It's up to the person to decide how to take it.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
You still apparently didn't read what I said before about the books being irrelevant to Duke's victory...

Chief's abilities in Vs. debates has to do with the books.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Not to mention the fact that the comparative I drew was not based on the debate itself

I told you to prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt that there is something directly in contradiction in the game.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I was using it to demonstrate why cheif was slow and weak compared to his book incarnation...you simply threw it out as irrelevantbased on it being a comparison.

We've discussed both strength and speed. Multiple times. How did I simply throw it out?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Read above... you call me a hypocrite, yet have a go at me for doing the exact same thing

As I said earlier, I've shown it too, but not nearly to the extent that you have so far. Read my reply to that some distance above.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
despite the fact that you havn't provided anything concrete in your defence beside "He's jogging" and "He needs all that strength to TIP the tank"... I ask you to prove it.

Prove that he needs to use his strength to flip the tank?
Prove that he's jogging?

Those are two things that don't even really need proof.

He needs to use a shitload of strength to flip a tank, obviously.
And if you look at the Spartan's feet during co-op, he's clearly jogging, not sprinting or even running.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Condecendance right there...

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
DarkC, go away from this debate, your contribution is lackluster...

And you ask why I call you a hypocrite?
*points above*
See. Darkstorm, this is why.

As for my contribution:
I've replied to every single post you did. You haven't, using a poor excuse to justify it.
You keep going back to a previous argument instead of developing on my explanations further.
If my contribution is 'lackluster', yours can be relatively referred to as 'poor'.

Really, Darkstorm, you appear to bedigging yourself a pretty deep grave here to me.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I did read the rule... that doesn't cover what happens when it crosses primary canon boundries,

According to several people, she declared that the books were a canon source some time ago. Not good enough for you?

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
nor does it provide a license to simply pick up the highest showing and run with it

They didn't simply let Eric Nylund take the project and 'run with it'. He has to follow their rules, according to the terms of agreement. Bungie can fire him at any time if they don't like what he's doing.

Originally posted by Darkstorm
this is the VIDEO GAME VS... where the games are THE definitive source.

It isn't pitting the videogames themselves into conflict. It's putting characters into conflict. Any licensed source from the game creator that defines their abilities and background are legitimate. It just so happens that Bungie chose to release books as well as games.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I don't care if your here to sniff the dasies, thats not my problem... A point doesn't require itself to be irrefutable, not now, and not ever, especially if it's from the primary source.

I asked you to prove that there is direct, irrefutable evidence that the games contradict the books.
In this case, yes, your points do require irrefutable to be accepted as fact.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Your explanations require proof

They're only to show how possibly some of those points you brought up can be accounted for, which negates their irrefutability.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I have the proof ffrom the games, you have words that you, I oranyone else can write at their lesure... until it is backed by something, what do you suggest I take it as?

Your proof from the games is based on the fact that games are extremely limited at points. I'm not trying to prove anything here, Darkstorm. You are.

The burden of proof is on you. I asked you to prove something irrefutable.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
And I ask again, based on what?

It's just that the books offer a wider perspective of things, which is why 'Haloites' refer to them more.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
we see the discrepencies in the game in comparison, so why should we use the abilities described in the book as opposed to those demonstrated within the game?

The only thing that is slightly a discrepancy is the fact that he never sprints in the games like he does in the books. And that can be accounted for.

In those times that he did sprint in the books, he did not have easy access to a vehicle like he does in the game. And he can only run at his top speed in bursts.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Again, you failed to read whatI said properly... I said, I amhere on MC VGvs forums to debate game characters as they are in the games

There's no rule for using specific types of sources, is there? No, there isn't. If it's legitimate, it goes.
I suggest you stop telling people what sources they can use and what they can't.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
if I wanted literature debates clogging that up, THEN I would go to SpabeBattles.Com and do it there...
Please learn to read...

And ending the post with an accusation reeking of hypocrisy, how original.

Arguments of this length, typically include insults and/or accusations, in my opinion.

The Chief did sprint quite fast in the CGI ad of Halo 3. Bungie officially stated that is how the Chief would move/fight in all his non-gameplay restricted glory.

Besides if we're going to put the books as non-canon the same should be done for the SF animes--although that's out of topic for this thread.

Bubble shield 😄

Originally posted by Xenogears
Arguments of this length, typically include insults and/or accusations, in my opinion.

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
The Chief did sprint quite fast in the CGI ad of Halo 3. Bungie officially stated that is how the Chief would move/fight in all his non-gameplay restricted glory.

Besides if we're going to put the books as non-canon the same should be done for the SF animes--although that's out of topic for this thread.

Gameplay restrictions should not be used to balance anything though.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I must say I generally agree with you on this one. 🙂

Originally posted by Superboy Prime
Gameplay restrictions should not be used to balance anything though.

Lana allowed the use of the Halo books, so, what's the fuss about again?

Dark... I'm not going into a quotefest again over this....

I would agree to a mid-level bitween the books and the games though... I don't mind that, but to immediately pick the very highest end showing and stick with it is bad form.

Keep quoting!

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
I don't mind that, but to immediately pick the very highest end showing and stick with it is bad form.

As long as it is included in the book, I'll use it. Simply because it was not displayed in the games doesn't mean that it shouldn't be taken as seriously.