What made God?

Originally posted by Templares
I Object!

Where is this proof that "God" is Uncreated or "the unchanging source of change"?

Lets not use Baseless Assumptions in trying to prove "God's" existence.

We're not trying to prove the existence of God, only speculating on the question of how God came to be - which exercise requires us to begin with the baseless assumption that God does in fact exist.

Originally posted by Templares
I Object!

Where is this proof that "God" is Uncreated or "the unchanging source of change"?

Lets not use Baseless Assumptions in trying to prove "God's" existence.

Oh, Good Lord! He even states in his post that he's not building a proof about God's existence. He's correctly pointing out a latent misconception about the nature of the Judeo/Christian God in Lord Urizen's post. If the God Lord Urizen is talking about is the Christian God, then his question is a logical contradiction, since God is defined in the creeds and by tradition as uncreated, eternal, and without cause or origin. In other words, Achiever is suggesting that the philosophical question Urizen is trying to pose is clumsily formulated.

speculating on the question of how God came to be

Speculations. I love IDLE speculations. It makes your imagination run wild . . . . and there is NO ONE who will say that youre wrong because youre NOT trying to prove anything.

"God" is actually made of the following:

-3 tablespoons butter
-3/4 cup brown sugar, firmly packed
-6 slices pineapple or 1 can (20 ounces) can of drained pineapple chunks
-pecan halves

-1/2 cup butter
-1/2 cup sugar
-1 egg
-1 1/2 cups all-purpose flour
-1 1/2 teaspoon baking powder
-1/2 teaspoon salt
-1/2 cup milk

And the most important ingredient: maraschino cherries.

To anyone interested here are some of the more sexist verses in the New Testament.

I CORINTHIANS
11:2-10... Woman created for man.
14:34 Women must be silent in churches.

EPHESIANS
5:22-24 Wives must submit to husbands in everything.

COLOSSIANS
3:18 Wives submit to husbands.

I TIMOTHY
2:11-15 Woman must not have authority…she must be silent. Women can be saved with childbearing.
5:9-10 Widows should be faithful to husband and must wash saints' feet.

1 PETER
3:1 Wives submit.

Originally posted by Templares
Speculations. I love IDLE speculations. It makes your imagination run wild . . . . and there is NO ONE who will say that youre wrong because youre NOT trying to prove anything.

"God" is actually made of the following:

-3 tablespoons butter
-3/4 cup brown sugar, firmly packed
-6 slices pineapple or 1 can (20 ounces) can of drained pineapple chunks
-pecan halves

-1/2 cup butter
-1/2 cup sugar
-1 egg
-1 1/2 cups all-purpose flour
-1 1/2 teaspoon baking powder
-1/2 teaspoon salt
-1/2 cup milk

And the most important ingredient: maraschino cherries.

Originally posted by The Achiever
And God can't be bored, because he's perfect.

I never knew bored was a sign of a flaw.

Anyway - God being perfect and whole and unbored and eternal and all that - why make us? What purpose do we serve? Surely it is almost an irrelevance to do this...

Consider an eternal being - now apparently according to many a Christian God plans on downing earth in a flood of pain and badness eventually - apocalypse, end of times, Judgement day - whatever. Now apparently knowing all, this surely is going to end up being a blink of Gods non-existant, metaphorical eye. Why the process at all? Theoretically God, if all knowing knows which souls will be saved or damned. He knows how it is going to end. Doesn't matter what we build, eventually it will be washed away and we will be back to... what? The void?

Why do it? What does it achieve? What does God get out of this?

..............Why?

Originally posted by The Achiever
There was NO TIME before God created anything. Time is the measure of the movement of things, and no things existed. God exists in an eternal now. He holds and comprehends all time in an instant - and is outside of it, like an author of a book.

And God can't be bored, because he's perfect.

How can a perfect God have such an imperfect representation of himself ? (i.e. Bible, corrupt churches, war torn followers, etc.)

And at the same time How can a Perfect God have have dogmas and testiments to his people which contradict the HELL out of eachother, and only lead to more conflict over "our perfect God"

How does a Perfect God create Hell ?

How does a Perfect God create such an imperfect world ?

How does a Perfect God who created this universe throw a hissy fit over minscule things such as homosexuality ?

How does a Perfect God FAIL to make himself fully known to his children?

How does a Perfect God give birth to a son who is pure evil ? (Satan)

Your God is Perfect ? 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

Perfection is a myth, therefore it doesn't exist. If your God is perfect, then he doesn't exist either. Wait a minute..that makes sense...God's the most popular myth today !!! 😱

As to your questions here is what i think:

1. the reactions of men are just that, the reaction and actions of men. free will is to blame not God.

2. once again man. when God decided to give man free will man becmae able to choose their own path. and on this path they can decipher the rules as they see them. just because a group of people see things one way does not mean that is the way God meant for them to be. if we were perfect then what good would God serve?

3. hell was originally intended for another group of beings, Lucifer and the fallen angels. for their rebellion. however this can be taken with a grain of salt as most of the images we think of the angelic rebellion comes from Milton's Paradise Lost. So perhaps there is no hell it was thought up by an imaginative playwrite.

4. God did make man a paradise and we chose to turn our backs on it. Man chose this imperfect world not God.

5. once again this is man throwing a hissy fit over homosexuality. i find this to be a rather unsettling misunderstanding of most christians of which i am one. homosexuality predates christianity and judaism. homosexuality seems to be a part of our species, so in a way it is natural and therefore created by God. I think this is man putting words in Gods mouth in order to feel closer to God.

6. that is what faith is for. if god makes himself known then noone has to have faith. plus it is a really nice social control. even in the old testament when God walked with man still there was disbelief. Also when God showed himself to Moses there was doubt. man is naturally dubious of powers greater than ourselves.

7. every thing needs an opposite. good needs evil otherwise what is good? if there is no bad to show what good is then what purpose does good serve? there must be some form of opposite in order to delineate behavior. this is why i do not belive in any action being good or bad it is simply an action that could be seen as either good or bad according to which side of the fence you are standing on. God needs Satan. an all powerful being could have stopped him but he did not because he needs him.

8. perfection implies not changing because perfection is a state of being not becoming. God is simply a being more perfect than us. not necessarily all perfect but a being that is closer than we are. therefore he is still becoming more perfect everyday.

This is my opinion on the matter. I do find that if one thinks on it for a while there are reasons for the way things are in this world. Man has made it bed in this world and that is a world without perfection. of course man cannot agree otherwise we would be to close to perfection for our own good.

you can thank thomas hobbes for my view on man.

3. hell was originally intended for another group of beings, Lucifer and the fallen angels. for their rebellion. however this can be taken with a grain of salt as most of the images we think of the angelic rebellion comes from Milton's Paradise Lost. So perhaps there is no hell it was thought up by an imaginative playwrite.

Why did Lucifer get put in Hell though... didn't he have the right to exercise free will? What was really so wrong it what he did? Why should the Angels have to serve God if we don't? It seems to go "What is this Lucifer, you think you could do better then me? That you should be God? Ok, let me see, how about.... I CREATE FREAKEN HELL FOR YOU! NO ONE QUESTIONS GOD!!!"

4. God did make man a paradise and we chose to turn our backs on it. Man chose this imperfect world not God.

Does God have no responsibility for this at all?

5. once again this is man throwing a hissy fit over homosexuality. i find this to be a rather unsettling misunderstanding of most christians of which i am one. homosexuality predates christianity and judaism. homosexuality seems to be a part of our species, so in a way it is natural and therefore created by God. I think this is man putting words in Gods mouth in order to feel closer to God.

So you are prepared to admit the various Churches are wrong, as are biblical interpretations that have it being bad in God's book? That it is ok? Personally I think the Church and Bible are wrong to claim homosexuality is bad. And I think God would also be wrong if he thinks it is bad.

6. that is what faith is for. if god makes himself known then noone has to have faith. plus it is a really nice social control. even in the old testament when God walked with man still there was disbelief. Also when God showed himself to Moses there was doubt. man is naturally dubious of powers greater than ourselves.

Still feels like a cop out. I know my friends. I know my family. I have faith in them because they have proved worthy of having my faith put in them. Just because I know them doesn't believe I am incapable of having faith in them. Or believing in them. What has God done to earn my blind faith? Not proven himself, that is for sure.

8. perfection implies not changing because perfection is a state of being not becoming. God is simply a being more perfect than us. not necessarily all perfect but a being that is closer than we are. therefore he is still becoming more perfect everyday.

Ergo it is wrong for people to claim God is flawless and should not be questioned. Ergo it is conceivable he has fallacies and could make mistakes. We should question God, just like we should question out politicians - and not blindly follow.

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
"A means of control" suggests a rather cynical view of the historical church. I am not here to defend the sinful actions of individual popes or venial ecclesiastic princes during the Middle Ages or Renaissance, but to suggest that the church, since soon after its inception, has been nothing more than some kind of instrument of political control is not born out by the facts. In fact, even when the church was vested with temporal powers in the middle ages, it often fought with secular princes over the right to protect it's own interests. The papacy and the state rarely saw eye to eye.

The Republicans and Democrats rarely ever see eye to eye - doesn't mean they aren't after the same thing, they just go about it in different ways.

I believe it to be a perfectly valid stance to claim so much of the early Church, up to recent times, was about control. Surely you are aware of the number of laws in existence during the period after the Church became the Roman state religion that were ecclesiastical in nature? The number of political posts shared by Bishops? The connection between Christian Emperors and the Church? Councils with immense influence over political matters? The Church was very much out for control and well entwined in the political runnings of the state. Nothing changed when Rome went except the Church had a harder time of it. Explain its desire to have an enforceable opinion over so many aspects of its followers lives. Explain away the numerous political uses of excommunication. Explain the ability of the Church to carry out all many of trials, from the minor to the Inquisition in all those lands, explain the economic strength and powers Church money got it with western nations. Explain how it could even create the Crusades without considerable control and influence over the politics of the West. Explain how come they inserted themselves in the process of monarchy - kings ruling with divine order (adminstered by the Church of course.)

And individual popes? The Church was an institution bigger then individuals. The excesses of it were often carried out over successive papal reigns. Not isolated incidents of a pope here or there deciding to become a bit more active in politics.

Yes, I feel it is very fair to say control was in the portfolio of the Church until relatively recent times when so many nations stripped away the ability of the Church to be a part of politics and make decisions for its people instead of the nations rulers.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Why did Lucifer get put in Hell though... didn't he have the right to exercise free will? What was really so wrong it what he did? Why should the Angels have to serve God if we don't? It seems to go "What is this Lucifer, you think you could do better then me? That you should be God? Ok, let me see, how about.... I CREATE FREAKEN HELL FOR YOU! NO ONE QUESTIONS GOD!!!"

as i was trying to say, i do not necessarily believe there is a hell. most of what we know of the battle between God and Lucifer comes from paradise lost. in job a lucifer like character was there in heaven talking with God. besides no where does it say that God gave the angels free will, their sole function is and was to worship God. sorry but that was their function. and i am not sure i believe in hell. i do believe in bad because bad or evil allows for there to be good and vice versa. God needed to offer another option. if all a person ever knows is a world full of buffets and all the food they can eat, how can we expect that person to understand famine and starvation?

Does God have no responsibility for this at all? [/B]

as much as we would like to think he does he does not. he allowed us to have free will and choose our destiny and we chose knowledge over paradise. how can you blame God for that?

So you are prepared to admit the various Churches are wrong, as are biblical interpretations that have it being bad in God's book? That it is ok? Personally I think the Church and Bible are wrong to claim homosexuality is bad. And I think God would also be wrong if he thinks it is bad. [/B]

I am prepared to admit that condemning a person to hell simply based on their preferences for a mate is wrong no matter whose name your doing it in. most Christians quote either Paul or Deuteronomy when talking about homosexuality. two things wrong with that: 1. Paul hated his former self and everything that he saw as being wrong with roman society. 2. the old testament was under the old covenant and all Christians fall under the new covenant of love and forgiveness. while i am not homosexual i do not feel that a person being in love with someone with the same reproductive organs is going to hell. homosexuality is not a sin it is a choice, thanks once again to free will. God is curious as to why we would choose things that is why there is so much variety in this world.

Still feels like a cop out. I know my friends. I know my family. I have faith in them because they have proved worthy of having my faith put in them. Just because I know them doesn't believe I am incapable of having faith in them. Or believing in them. What has God done to earn my blind faith? Not proven himself, that is for sure. [/B]

God gives you the choice to believe in him if you want or not. that decision is yours and yours alone. to believe in something that is everywhere and nowhere is difficult, true, but it is at times necessary. almost everyone believes in some form of higher power. blind faith is faith, faith with questions is still faith. doubting Thomas had faith his was just a faith that had questions. it is not wrong to question it is wrong to blindly follow anyone without discovering your own truth first.

Ergo it is wrong for people to claim God is flawless and should not be questioned. Ergo it is conceivable he has fallacies and could make mistakes. We should question God, just like we should question out politicians - and not blindly follow. [/B]

the old testament proves that God has done things that he himself says he will never do again. Such as the flood. Yes question God, question everything around you. one does not preclude you from the other. to have questions does not mean you cannot have faith, it simply means you have questions. if a person approaches faith on their own terms and researches and comes to their own conclusions then they will be better people for it. people that simply accept everything they are told and never look at it for themselves are fools. looking at something for yourself does not mean you do not have faith it simply means when you find what you believe it will be a stronger belief than if you had just accepted what others had told you. but one cannot equate God to a politician who blatantly lies to your face. that is an over simplification. God does not lie he does not need to lie. what good is lying to God?

Religion is a set of beliefs and ideals. that is all it is. God is above all of these ideals and is to everyone what they need him to be. he is Allah, Yahweh, God, Jesus, Buddha (and yes i know many do not think of Buddha as God but some do), and everything else. He is capable of accepting faith in something as faith. all answers can be right, this is not a pass/fail test. it is just life.

Originally posted by The Achiever
There was NO TIME before God created anything. Time is the measure of the movement of things, and no things existed. God exists in an eternal now. He holds and comprehends all time in an instant - and is outside of it, like an author of a book.

And God can't be bored, because he's perfect.

What is the cause then? Why would he create time and space? It's total nonsense... The fact that it is impossible to prove that God exist, makes the question "What made God," moot. Trying to prove the existance of God, or his orgins, is the same as trying to prove the existance of "The Force."

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
I never knew bored was a sign of a flaw.

Anyway - God being perfect and whole and unbored and eternal and all that - why make us? What purpose do we serve? Surely it is almost an irrelevance to do this...

Consider an eternal being - now apparently according to many a Christian God plans on downing earth in a flood of pain and badness eventually - apocalypse, end of times, Judgement day - whatever. Now apparently knowing all, this surely is going to end up being a blink of Gods non-existant, metaphorical eye. Why the process at all? Theoretically God, if all knowing knows which souls will be saved or damned. He knows how it is going to end. Doesn't matter what we build, eventually it will be washed away and we will be back to... what? The void?

Why do it? What does it achieve? What does God get out of this?

..............Why?

Boredom is a sign of imperfection in so far as a perfect being cannot be bored. By definition a perfect being does not lack anything. Boredom implies a lack, a failure of contentment. God knows everything and can do everything already, there is nothing to seek.

Why make anything? That is indeed the key question. The only possible answer (taking the premise that if God exists he must be perfect) is love - God is love. There is nothing to achieve in the true sense of the word - again there is nothing lacking. On the flip side, if God is perfect he would never create the universe as a sadistic game - he doesn't need the entertainment or distraction. Before you knee-jerk dismiss this seemingly simple answer, I'd just ponder it for awhile.

Originally posted by Jim Reaper
What is the cause then? Why would he create time and space? It's total nonsense... The fact that it is impossible to prove that God exist, makes the question "What made God," moot. Trying to prove the existance of God, or his orgins, is the same as trying to prove the existance of "The Force."

Another question to ask would be - Can there be a creator without a creation?

After all, if someone or something hasn't created something they aren't a creator, right? So God wouldn't be God without first having the work of God.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
How can a perfect God have such an imperfect representation of himself ? (i.e. Bible, corrupt churches, war torn followers, etc.)

And at the same time How can a Perfect God have have dogmas and testiments to his people which contradict the HELL out of eachother, and only lead to more conflict over "our perfect God"

How does a Perfect God create Hell ?

How does a Perfect God create such an imperfect world ?

How does a Perfect God who created this universe throw a hissy fit over minscule things such as homosexuality ?

How does a Perfect God FAIL to make himself fully known to his children?

How does a Perfect God give birth to a son who is pure evil ? (Satan)

Your God is Perfect ? 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

Perfection is a myth, therefore it doesn't exist. If your God is perfect, then he doesn't exist either. Wait a minute..that makes sense...God's the most popular myth today !!! 😱

I'm very glad you are so proud of yourself; but your logic is full of holes - un-established assumptions and inapropriate unproven conclusions.

1. Why does God's imperfect presentation to us imply in any way that he is not perfect? Could there not be a reason for keeping partially hidden?

2. Provide an example of contradictory dogma. Do you mean one Christian denomination as to another? If so, how does that disprove God's perfection.

3. Why does the existence of Hell require God to be imperfect.

4. It always goes back to homosexuality, no matter what the topic. Whose having a hissy fit? Let it go. We're not talking about morality here.

5. Fail to make himself known to us? Create the pure evil one, Satan. Go back to number 1. Just because you don't understand it and dismiss it, doesn't mean there's no reason for it that is beyond your or our limited and imperfect understanding.

6. Perfection is a myth, therefore it doesn't exist. Bad logic again. By that I mean your major premise is unproven and untrue. Why is it axiomatic that pefection is a myth? Your first conclusion is also unsupported. You imply that myths do not exist with out establishing it as fact. That's an equivocation and double meaning of the word myth. In other words, you just used myth to equal untrue. Of course anything you simply declare to be untrue is also non-existent. This sentence is a meaningless tautology. Inevitably, your second conclusion is also flawed and illogical (God is pefect therefore he doesn't exist.) In essence your final paragraph states - God is perfect; Perfection = myth = non-existent; therefore God is non-existent. But you never bother showing why or how perfection is a myth or why or how a myth is non-existent. You could have just skipped the the two middle steps and had the same flat result by stating - God is perfect; therefore God does not exist. You have neither argued nor proven anything, because you have not made an argument, simply an assertion.

It's all well and good for you to not believe in God or to believe that God is a myth, but don't pretend to celebrate and claim that you've proven anything when you've done no such thing.

Originally posted by docb77
Another question to ask would be - Can there be a creator without a creation?

After all, if someone or something hasn't created something they aren't a creator, right? So God wouldn't be God without first having the work of God.

What? 😕 We all seem to put limits of God.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What? 😕 We all seem to put limits of God.

All I did there was say He didn't earn the title of Creator until He created. Likewise, the title of God wouldn't be His until He started doing whatever a god is supposed to do. No limit there, just semantic mumbo jumbo. 😛

Originally posted by The Achiever
I'm very glad you are so proud of yourself; but your logic is full of holes - un-established assumptions and inapropriate unproven conclusions.

1. Why does God's imperfect presentation to us imply in any way that he is not perfect? Could there not be a reason for keeping partially hidden?

2. Provide an example of contradictory dogma. Do you mean one Christian denomination as to another? If so, how does that disprove God's perfection.

3. Why does the existence of Hell require God to be imperfect.

4. It always goes back to homosexuality, no matter what the topic. Whose having a hissy fit? Let it go. We're not talking about morality here.

5. Fail to make himself known to us? Create the pure evil one, Satan. Go back to number 1. Just because you don't understand it and dismiss it, doesn't mean there's no reason for it that is beyond your or our limited and imperfect understanding.

6. Perfection is a myth, therefore it doesn't exist. Bad logic again. By that I mean your major premise is unproven and untrue. Why is it axiomatic that pefection is a myth? Your first conclusion is also unsupported. You imply that myths do not exist with out establishing it as fact. That's an equivocation and double meaning of the word myth. In other words, you just used myth to equal untrue. Of course anything you simply declare to be untrue is also non-existent. This sentence is a meaningless tautology. Inevitably, your second conclusion is also flawed and illogical (God is pefect therefore he doesn't exist.) In essence your final paragraph states - God is perfect; Perfection = myth = non-existent; therefore God is non-existent. But you never bother showing why or how perfection is a myth or why or how a myth is non-existent. You could have just skipped the the two middle steps and had the same flat result by stating - God is perfect; therefore God does not exist. You have neither argued nor proven anything, because you have not made an argument, simply an assertion.

It's all well and good for you to not believe in God or to believe that God is a myth, but don't pretend to celebrate and claim that you've proven anything when you've done no such thing.

Does my logic have flaws? No shit it does....all of our logic has flaws, for we are human, and this flaws in logic are inevitable. 😉

However, I beleive that despite all of that trivial bullshit, my logic is still based on more reasonable observation, experience, and conclusiveness as oppose to blindly accepting some old outdated book as a source of truth, when it contradicts itself.

You know exactly what I am talking about. A perfect God will use imperfect representation to present himself ?

What is perfection anyway ? You imply it exists..okay so what is it ?

Omg lemme guess...ur gonna give me ANOTHER INCONCLUSIVE, UNCONVINCING, illogical, mythological, and unclear answer:

God is Perfection. 😄

Uh...NO 👇

Can you prove perfection exists? Can you prove your God exists?

If not, then don't you dare aim to attack my logic, when your own is muddied. ❌

Originally posted by The Achiever
Boredom is a sign of imperfection in so far as a perfect being cannot be bored. By definition a perfect being does not lack anything. Boredom implies a lack, a failure of contentment. God knows everything and can do everything already, there is nothing to seek.

Why make anything? That is indeed the key question. The only possible answer (taking the premise that if God exists he must be perfect) is love - God is love. There is nothing to achieve in the true sense of the word - again there is nothing lacking. On the flip side, if God is perfect he would never create the universe as a sadistic game - he doesn't need the entertainment or distraction. Before you knee-jerk dismiss this seemingly simple answer, I'd just ponder it for awhile.

Why would God create out of Love, with the alternate of Hell ?

Since when does Love provide eternal torment as the alternative ? 🙄

Originally posted by docb77
Another question to ask would be - Can there be a creator without a creation?

After all, if someone or something hasn't created something they aren't a creator, right? So God wouldn't be God without first having the work of God.

And your point is ?