What made God?

Started by peejayd11 pages

Re: Re: Re: What made God?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Peejayd, it says "ever lasting" not "ever beginning"

You can be Immortal if you lack a death but have a birth.

You can be infinite in one direction (death) but be finite in the other direction (birth) 😉

* yes, i got your point, it says "everlasting"... but it also said "FROM everlasting"... and let us see other translations...

"Before you created the hills or brought the world into being, you were eternally God, and will be God forever."
Psalms 90:2
Good News Bible

"Before the mountains were made, before you had given birth to the earth and the world, before time was, and for ever, you are God."
Psalms 90:2
Bible in Basic English

"Before the mountains were brought forth, and thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from eternity to eternity thou art God."
Psalms 90:2
Darby Bible

"Before the mountains were made, or the earth and the world was formed; from eternity and to eternity thou art God."
Psalms 90:2
Douay-Rheims Version

* when it says "FROM everlasting" or "FROM eternity", it means "FROM no beginning"... 😉

Re: Re: Re: Re: What made God?

Originally posted by peejayd
* yes, i got your point, it says "everlasting"... but it also said "FROM everlasting"... and let us see other translations...

"Before you created the hills or brought the world into being, you were eternally God, and will be God forever."
Psalms 90:2
Good News Bible

"Before the mountains were made, before you had given birth to the earth and the world, before time was, and for ever, you are God."
Psalms 90:2
Bible in Basic English

"Before the mountains were brought forth, and thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from eternity to eternity thou art God."
Psalms 90:2
Darby Bible

"Before the mountains were made, or the earth and the world was formed; from eternity and to eternity thou art God."
Psalms 90:2
Douay-Rheims Version

* when it says "FROM everlasting" or "FROM eternity", it means "FROM no beginning"... 😉

But the question is....Did God make us, or did we make God ?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What made God?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
But the question is....Did God make us, or did we make God ?

I would say that assuming the existence of God, He would have made us. Of course that still doesn't bar the possibility that there are man-made ideas about God, or entirely man-made doctrines. The only way to really know is for God to tell you.

Originally posted by Alliance
God's god sounds like Man's man

Maybe. But the fundamental philosophical issue underpinning this question is the following: One of two things is eternal--Matter/Energy or Mind/Spirit. To say that matter/energy always existed (even as a Big Bang-style singularity) does not put you in a much better philosophical position than saying God existed eternally. Both are axioms that are unlikely to be "proven" by any empirical test.

The recent universal acceptance of the Big Bang as the most likely model for the physical origin of the universe is a case in point. When Lemaitre, a French Jesuit edcuator/theoretical physicist, first proposed the theory in the 1930's, it was roundly attacked by the scientific community, including Einstein, as being cataclysmic and smacking of "creationism." At the time, a non-cataclysmic, "steady state" model was ascendant.

Much of the hostility to Lemaitre's idea was the notion that the nature of the physical universe was once radically different than it is now. That the universe could have had a finite origin in time and might have proceeded from a single point was an idea in direct opposition to comfortable scientific preferences for the uniformity of phenomena over time and strict linear, material causation.

While the Big Bang certainly doesn't "prove" God's existence, its reluctant acceptance by the scientific community in the late twentieth century points to a fundamental weakness in the armor of radical skepticism and indicates that, like everyone else, scientists are predisposed to see things framed through a particular world view that may or may not conform to the world around them.

The simple truth of the matter is that science cannot speak to the existence of God, one way of the other. But this self-imposed limitation of scientific method shouldn't eliminate the sphere of religious belief from the public arena. There are many things that cannot be proved empirically that we nonetheless experience intensely--love, anguish, human kinship. Strictly speaking, all these human experiences are anomolies in the otherwise indifferent universe. Even our ceaseless striving after truth is an indication that we exist in a position to stand apart from the world and judge it, that we are unnatural.

Material causation and absolute determinism cannot account for these things. Those that would argue that we are merely biological robots acting strictly through chemical stimulation do not live as if they are automatons--unless they're sociopaths. Those that espouse nothing but material causation and the accompanying belief in the illusory character of the soul are left to explain why they cherish human life, or why they care what the truth really is, or why they care what happens to their children. If these behaviors are merely biological tricks our DNA play on us to facilitate the perpetuation of our species, why should we continue to hold these values once we achieve our "higher" consciousness? After all, if no values really exist, and all is happenstance and natural selection, why should the perpetuation of my species concern me any more than anything else? F..k it.

Human existence is a recent anomaly in the universe, but it is a significant anomaly. Any "scientific" theory must account for our presence as thinking, feeling, loving beings.

Thinking, feeling, and loving are relatively commonplace in our lives, so we generally dismiss these things as banalities, or as subjects not worthy of serious philosophical thought; but I suspect that these experiences are the point of it all, the secret wonder of a cold, unfeeling universe, that doesn't know--nor never will--how to laugh, sing, or cry.

If our humanity is real, and I think we must assume it is, then the universe is stranger than our science knows, and the ultimate author of our uniqueness might still hide behind the veil of that first moment before there was either time or space and the universe was a fleck of nothingness to be held by a child.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What made God?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
But the question is....Did God make us, or did we make God ?

* according to the Bible, yes, God made us...

"The God that made the world and all things therein, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;"
The Acts 17:24

* and God's existence lies through His creations...

"Because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:"
The Romans 1:19-20

* there really is a Higher Being and that is God... 😉

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What made God?

Originally posted by peejayd
* according to the Bible, yes, God made us...

"The God that made the world and all things therein, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;"
The Acts 17:24

* and God's existence lies through His creations...

"Because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:"
The Romans 1:19-20

* there really is a Higher Being and that is God... 😉

The Bible was written by Human Beings 😉

Therefore you evidense is MUTE...the Bible is not proof of God's existance. And the fact that Human Beings wrote the Bible, sends me to beleive that human beings also created God.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What made God?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
The Bible was written by Human Beings 😉

Therefore you evidense is MUTE...the Bible is not proof of God's existance. And the fact that Human Beings wrote the Bible, sends me to beleive that human beings also created God.

Or that we are God. 😎

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What made God?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
The Bible was written by Human Beings 😉

Therefore you evidense is MUTE...the Bible is not proof of God's existance. And the fact that Human Beings wrote the Bible, sends me to beleive that human beings also created God.

* history books are also written by humans... should we believe in history books or not? 😛

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What made God?

Originally posted by peejayd
* history books are also written by humans... should we believe in history books or not? 😛

Not word for word....History is written by the victors. 😉

We only know what people tell us. We were not alive at that time to truly know every aspect of truth that was present.

You also have to realize that everyone percieves the world differently. Eyewitnesses of the SAME event often contradict each other.

Why do you think the accomplishments of women and homosexual men have not been brought to light? Because straight men have written the majority of our historical past.

However, I'm more willing to accept History Text than Biblical text, because History is not telling me how to live my life, nor is it violating Civil Rights, nor are people using it in an attempt to oppress other people.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What made God?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Not word for word....History is written by the victors. 😉

We only know what people tell us. We were not alive at that time to truly know every aspect of truth that was present.

You also have to realize that everyone percieves the world differently. Eyewitnesses of the SAME event often contradict each other.

Why do you think the accomplishments of women and homosexual men have not been brought to light? Because straight men have written the majority of our historical past.

However, I'm more willing to accept History Text than Biblical text, because History is not telling me how to live my life, nor is it violating Civil Rights, nor are people using it in an attempt to oppress other people.

hysterical

I'm sorry, but if you think that history isn't telling you how to live you must be getting it from someplace other than public schools. History and other social studies classes are one of the best indoctination techniques that exist today. The difference is that the indoctrination is indirect rather than direct. Instead of "Thou shalt not kill" you get inclusion of certain events and you get other events glossed over. Currently the emphasis of American history books is on being a good citizen and tolerance of others. It wasn't always that way, but it is now.

Off hand, while I see those as the themes of current history classes, I do not think that they are doing a good job of actually teaching those things.

what made god I don't know...........

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What made God?

Originally posted by docb77
hysterical

I'm sorry, but if you think that history isn't telling you how to live you must be getting it from someplace other than public schools. History and other social studies classes are one of the best indoctination techniques that exist today. The difference is that the indoctrination is indirect rather than direct. Instead of "Thou shalt not kill" you get inclusion of certain events and you get other events glossed over. Currently the emphasis of American history books is on being a good citizen and tolerance of others. It wasn't always that way, but it is now.

Off hand, while I see those as the themes of current history classes, I do not think that they are doing a good job of actually teaching those things.

LAugh all you want..but its majorly hypocritical of you to claim that History is propaganda and the Bible is not... 🙄

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What made God?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
LAugh all you want..but its majorly hypocritical of you to claim that History is propaganda and the Bible is not... 🙄

Is it propaganda when you're writing for people who already believe as you do?

The Bible was written for the most part to believers.

I'm not saying that Christian propaganda doesn't exist, or that it doesn't use the bible as such, but the Bible certainly wasn't written as propaganda. History books? History is written by the victory, now why would they want to do a thing like that?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What made God?

Originally posted by docb77
Is it propaganda when you're writing for people who already believe as you do?

It's propaganda when you force it down people who don't already beleive. 😉

Many Conservatives want the Ten Commandments taught in every public school and want to ban Gay Marriage.

Originally posted by docb77
The Bible was written for the most part to believers.

Then why can't it stay in the hearts of beleivers, and out of politics ?

Originally posted by docb77
I'm not saying that Christian propaganda doesn't exist, or that it doesn't use the bible as such, but the Bible certainly wasn't written as propaganda. History books? History is written by the victory, now why would they want to do a thing like that?

History for SURE is mostly propaganda, and less objective. No argument there buddy. We actually agree on something.

The Bible also seems to have been written as propaganda. New Testament is propaganda against the Old Testament and against previous Judaism.

The Bible has several anti-gay and anti-feminist ideals, which is very much propaganda in my eyes.

Re: What made God?

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
A big problem I see with the Bible, is it never states how God was created, he couldn't be around forever, it had to start somewhere

That is because God WAS NOT created. God has ALWAYS been, is right now, and will always be. It had to start somewhere. With you, me, and everyone else BORN into the world--yes, it HAD to start somewhere. But not with God; He is ETERNAL. Look that word up then come back to this post if you so desire. But...don't return until you've researched that word eternal. We (our physical bodies) are not eternal (but our spirit, the REAL us, is eternal). We all had a beginning. But God is not a man (i.e., human being). He is GOD. That is where He stands infinitely apart from us. We will NEVER be God.

Daniel 7:9
I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, Its wheels a burning fire;

Revelation 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega , the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last .”

God (Jesus) is THE Alpha (i.e., First letter of the Greek Alphabet) and THE Omega (i.e., Last letter of the Greek Alphabet) THE Beginning AND End, THE First and THE Last.

Wow...

What does all of this mean?

It means that He has always been...is...and always will be. In other words God has no birthday, no mid-life crisis, and He will not have a funeral. He is SELF-existent. He doesn't have parents. We do, but He doesn't.

All life originated with God. It stops or starts rather with God.

Nah. "God" just have a penchant for hyperbole.

"God" is actually made of the following:

-3 tablespoons butter
-3/4 cup brown sugar, firmly packed
-6 slices pineapple or 1 can (20 ounces) can of drained pineapple chunks
-pecan halves

-1/2 cup butter
-1/2 cup sugar
-1 egg
-1 1/2 cups all-purpose flour
-1 1/2 teaspoon baking powder
-1/2 teaspoon salt
-1/2 cup milk

And the most important ingredient: maraschino cherries

Re: Re: What made God?

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
That is because God WAS NOT created. God has ALWAYS been, is right now, and will always be. It had to start somewhere. With you, me, and everyone else BORN into the world--yes, it HAD to start somewhere. But not with God; He is ETERNAL. Look that word up then come back to this post if you so desire. But...don't return until you've researched that word eternal. We (our physical bodies) are not eternal (but our spirit, the REAL us, is eternal). We all had a beginning. But God is not a man (i.e., human being). He is GOD. That is where He stands infinitely apart from us. We will NEVER be God.

[B]Daniel 7:9
I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, Its wheels a burning fire;

Revelation 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega , the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last .”

God (Jesus) is THE Alpha (i.e., First letter of the Greek Alphabet) and THE Omega (i.e., Last letter of the Greek Alphabet) THE Beginning AND End, THE First and THE Last.

Wow...

What does all of this mean?

It means that He has always been...is...and always will be. In other words God has no birthday, no mid-life crisis, and He will not have a funeral. He is SELF-existent. He doesn't have parents. We do, but He doesn't.

All life originated with God. It stops or starts rather with God. [/B]

God must have been BORED AS HELL before he created us.....

With all that TIME on his hands....nothing to do.....

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What made God?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
It's propaganda when you force it down people who don't already beleive. 😉

Many Conservatives want the Ten Commandments taught in every public school and want to ban Gay Marriage.

Then why can't it stay in the hearts of beleivers, and out of politics ?

Here's my two cents on this issue. The first amendment is a restriction on Congress (the legislative body) from establishing religion or limiting its expression. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." OK. This amendment does not mean that religion cannot be established period or that those who wish to express it are obligated to abandon the public arena. Religious belief defines and colors the values of those who practice it. Therefore, it is unreasonable to demand that believers abandon their faith when speaking about matters of public import. They will necessarily bring that value system with them to the table. Flipping the argument, I could just as easily ask a secular materialist agnostic/atheist to stop foisting his belief/value system on me and leave his belief system outside of the public arena. Besides, the 1st amendment clearly states that the "free exercise" of religion may not be prohibited. The intent of the amendment was to guard against the establishment of a national church not to protect people from the existence of religion.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
History for SURE is mostly propaganda, and less objective. No argument there buddy. We actually agree on something.

The Bible also seems to have been written as propaganda. New Testament is propaganda against the Old Testament and against previous Judaism.

The Bible has several anti-gay and anti-feminist ideals, which is very much propaganda in my eyes.

Wow. Ok. History is certainly always written from a certain viewpoint. I don't think that can be helped. We are all creatures with a unique subjectivity. However, to call all written history propaganda is a bit of a stretch. Read Thucydides' "History of the Peloponesian War". It's not propaganda. He's an Athenian who fought on the losing side of the war who actually gives a dispassionate analysis of the conflict and oftentimes criticizes Athenian hegemony. What you will find is that his historical viewpoint is colored by an austere moral outlook, one steeped in the tragic condition of man and cognisant of human moral weakness. But if that's propaganda, then the word doesn't mean anything.

Is Solzhenitsen's "Gulag Archipelago" a propaganda piece against the Soviet Union? It's certainly not flattering. But, then again, being incarcerated in a death camp for ending up on the wrong side of the German border at the end of WWII probably has a tendency to make one bitter. I would argue that, even in this instance, where the author has a political/existential axe to grind, an historical narrative is not necessarily propaganda if it comes from direct experience and remains truthful to the facts at hand.

By your argument, neither any historical fact, nor any historical viewpoint, can be independently verified or deciphered, because it all conceals some obscure political/socio/cultural agenda. This is a bad predicament because it means that we cannot transmit historical knowledge, nor know anything beyond our own immediate, subjective experience.

Finally, I think it funny that you talk about the Bible having an anti-gay, anti-feminist agenda, when these things, as such, didn't exist when the text was written. Certainly, there were oriental fertility cults centered around female priesthood and worship, but no feminism as you understand it. And as for homosexuality, it existed primarily as particular acts within the world of the Bible, but certainly not as a self-defined sub-culture. I would venture to say that in the ancient Semitic world, there was never any gay-agenda per se. The Torah enumerates and prohibits forms of homosexual behavior but never acknowledges a separate lifestyle in opposition to heterosexual marriage. The simple fact of the matter is that, excluding even the Bible's influence, the culture at large had no concept of and would never have given space for such a lifestyle to exist. I guess what I'm trying to say is that even if someone in the ancient Mediterranean world had homosexual tendencies, or had even slept with men, that he would never have thought of themselves as being "gay" or distinct from everyone around them. Being "gay" is a social category that should be clearly distinguished from homosexual acts. Even today, if you go to a prison, and ask an inmate whether they've been with men, you may get him to admit that he has. Now, ask him if he's "gay" and see what happens.

God created existince. He created himself so to speak

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What made God?

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
Finally, I think it funny that you talk about the Bible having an anti-gay, anti-feminist agenda, when these things, as such, didn't exist when the text was written. Certainly, there were oriental fertility cults centered around female priesthood and worship, but no feminism as you understand it. And as for homosexuality, it existed primarily as particular acts within the world of the Bible, but certainly not as a self-defined sub-culture. I would venture to say that in the ancient Semitic world, there was never any gay-agenda per se. The Torah enumerates and prohibits forms of homosexual behavior but never acknowledges a separate lifestyle in opposition to heterosexual marriage. The simple fact of the matter is that, excluding even the Bible's influence, the culture at large had no concept of and would never have given space for such a lifestyle to exist. I guess what I'm trying to say is that even if someone in the ancient Mediterranean world had homosexual tendencies, or had even slept with men, that he would never have thought of themselves as being "gay" or distinct from everyone around them. Being "gay" is a social category that should be clearly distinguished from homosexual acts. Even today, if you go to a prison, and ask an inmate whether they've been with men, you may get him to admit that he has. Now, ask him if he's "gay" and see what happens.

You're going to deep into this.

1) I know "Gay" is a social construct and does not actually mean "homosexual"..."gay" started as an insult to portray all homosexual men as "sissy"...then "Gay" became a culture created by various homosexuals (and even heterosexuals) as a carefree sexually liberal ideal.

2) The Bible is not LITERALLY anti-gay or anti-feminist if you want to use the literal terms. However, it has testiments and ideals that by TODAY's standards ARE very much anti-homosexual and anti-feminist.

The Bible CLEARLY states that women need to submit to men. Also notice how NO BOOK in the entire Bible was written by a woman. Only be men.

On top of that, the Bible has repeated versus that CONDEMN homosexuality.

If you attack homosexuality, then you are ALSO attacking "Gays".