What made God?

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
You're going to deep into this.

1) I know "Gay" is a social construct and does not actually mean "homosexual"..."gay" started as an insult to portray all homosexual men as "sissy"...then "Gay" became a culture created by various homosexuals (and even heterosexuals) as a carefree sexually liberal ideal.

2) The Bible is not LITERALLY anti-gay or anti-feminist if you want to use the literal terms. However, it has testiments and ideals that by TODAY's standards ARE very much anti-homosexual and anti-feminist.

The Bible CLEARLY states that women need to submit to men. Also notice how NO BOOK in the entire Bible was written by a woman. Only be men.

On top of that, the Bible has repeated versus that CONDEMN homosexuality.

If you attack homosexuality, then you are ALSO attacking "Gays".

1. A "care-free, sexually liberal ideal?" LOL. Ok. I'll let that go. Way too much to go into there.

The Bible condemns homosexual acts. No big secret. It is certainly not unique in doing so. You would have to condemn most of the ancient world for taking this stance.

2. You just reiterated my point, which is, that you're condemning the book for saying things that are at odds with modern mindsets/viewpoints with which it was unfamiliar. That's a touch unfair. It's like arguing that the Bible is a farce because it doesn't take a strong enough stand against tobacco and alcohol abuse. These kinds of issues just didn't exist in Jewish culture. Give me an example of an ancient, Semitic pro-feminist text, then we'll talk.

Originally posted by Grimm22
God created existince. He created himself so to speak

No, God did no create Himself. No one knows how this is but God HAS ALWAYS BEEN. Don't try to extrapolate how this is. This is one of the Truths that sets God infinitely apart from His creation.

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
1. A "care-free, sexually liberal ideal?" LOL. Ok. I'll let that go. Way too much to go into there.

The Bible condemns homosexual acts. No big secret. It is certainly not unique in doing so. You would have to condemn most of the ancient world for taking this stance.

2. You just reiterated my point, which is, that you're condemning the book for saying things that are at odds with modern mindsets/viewpoints with which it was unfamiliar. That's a touch unfair. It's like arguing that the Bible is a farce because it doesn't take a strong enough stand against tobacco and alcohol abuse. These kinds of issues just didn't exist in Jewish culture. Give me an example of an ancient, Semitic pro-feminist text, then we'll talk.

You seriously don't get the point....

Obviously, the names for the issues we have today were not considered big issues back then.

Point is I don't feel the Bible APPLIES to today's issues. It's an outdated expired 2000 year old collection of books.

HOWEVER....the fact that the Bible condemns homosexuality, AND the fact that it places men of higher value than women, is used by many a Christian Conservative as the foundation for thier politics against Gays and in favor of Patriarchy.

You can very much find many versus that condemn homosexuality AND demean woman as inferior in many ways...there is NO doubt that.

I fail to see what exactly you are arguing about...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
there is NO doubt that.

Actually there is... Jesus changed a lot of that and actually discussed with women when it was practically forbidden to do so.

Originally posted by Echuu
Actually there is... Jesus changed a lot of that and actually discussed with women when it was practically forbidden to do so.

I am not talking about Jesus. I am talking about the Bible.

Here's some Biblical Facts buddy:

1) All the Authors of the Bible were men

2) Women were never given right to be part of the Clergy (nuns don't count, they cannot become preists or bishops)

3) The Bible CLEARLY states that women must submit to the will of men

4) Mary Magdeline was labeled a prostitute, and NOT an APOSTLE when she was one of Jesus' most faithful servants. There's evidense to suggest that she wasn't even a prostitute.

5) The introduction of evil to Humanity is blamed on EVE, a woman.

6) God is the FATHER.....there is no mother of humankind. Only a mother of Jesus.

7) All angels mentioned in the Bible are male.

8) Women came from the rib of man, even though we are all born of women 🙄

The Bible has much support for Patriarchy and nothing but contempt for women being equals to men.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I am not talking about Jesus. I am talking about the Bible.

Here's some Biblical Facts buddy:

1) All the Authors of the Bible were men

2) Women were never given right to be part of the Clergy (nuns don't count, they cannot become preists or bishops)

3) The Bible CLEARLY states that women must submit to the will of men

4) Mary Magdeline was labeled a prostitute, and NOT an APOSTLE when she was one of Jesus' most faithful servants. There's evidense to suggest that she wasn't even a prostitute.

5) The introduction of evil to Humanity is blamed on EVE, a woman.

6) God is the FATHER.....there is no mother of humankind. Only a mother of Jesus.

7) All angels mentioned in the Bible are male.

8) Women came from the rib of man, even though we are all born of women 🙄

The Bible has much support for Patriarchy and nothing but contempt for women being equals to men.

1 - True (at least probably since we don't actually know who some of the authors are

2- Not applicable, in the OT there was no clergy. Then you have Deborah the prophetess to consider as well.

3- True, but it also says that men must love their wives even as Christ loves His people (aka, willing to give all for them)

4- Absolutely false, it nowhere states that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute. The idea of that didn't come up until some pope in like 600 AD.

5- False, the introduction of sin and death is blamed on Eve and adam. Evil was the fault of the snake.

6- unknown - You've said yourself that women aren't mentioned much in the Bible, it is possible that intercession with mankind is God the Father's responsibility and that the Heavenly Mother has other cosmic responsibilities.

7- likely true, but unknown

8- Not applicable, Being a creation story there was no woman yet for them to come from. Most theologians ascribe a symbolic meaning to the rib story. aka Eve was a "help meet for" Adam, or in other words suited to. The rib was taken from his side, meaning that the 2 are really 1, or that they should be side by side - equal in responsibility.

The bible actually advanced the status of women by leaps and bounds compared to what had been the norm of other non-biblical cultures previous to it.

Women mentioned with Honor in the Bible -

- Deborah the prophetess
- Miriam, Moses's sister
- Yochabed, Moses's mother
- Ruth
- Esther (who wasn't even hebrew, so there goes the racist argument)
- Mary - Mother of Jesus
- Mary and Martha
- Mary Magdalene (first to see the resurrected Jesus)

Now I'll agree that some people have some interpretations of the bible that lead to repression, but you can't say that that's the only interpretation.

Originally posted by Robtard
Didn't he transform her into a cow and then have his way with her? That Zeus has some serious issues.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I am not talking about Jesus. I am talking about the Bible.

Here's some Biblical Facts buddy:

1) All the Authors of the Bible were men

2) Women were never given right to be part of the Clergy (nuns don't count, they cannot become preists or bishops)

3) The Bible CLEARLY states that women must submit to the will of men

4) Mary Magdeline was labeled a prostitute, and NOT an APOSTLE when she was one of Jesus' most faithful servants. There's evidense to suggest that she wasn't even a prostitute.

5) The introduction of evil to Humanity is blamed on EVE, a woman.

6) God is the FATHER.....there is no mother of humankind. Only a mother of Jesus.

7) All angels mentioned in the Bible are male.

8) Women came from the rib of man, even though we are all born of women 🙄

The Bible has much support for Patriarchy and nothing but contempt for women being equals to men.

Urizen, fess up now...you got this ammo from "The Divinci Code", didn't you? Didn't you? LOL.

Good Lord, Dan Brown is a moron and a thinly-disguised Roman Catholic bigot to boot, so I wouldn't pay his little diatribe against the sexist, anti-feminsit origins of Christianity too much attention.

You apparently agree with Dan Brown that the Church has been part of a 2000 year conspiracy to oppress women. I would argue that the Church, especially the Roman Catholic Church, argues for the unique mystery and special dignity of women against the dehumanizing, androgynous pressures of modern culture.

Originally posted by debbiejo
I thought the story went, Io and Zeus were lovers they wanted to consummate, so a cloud was formed to hide their deeds..They were smitten with each other.....But to hide her from Hera who was getting suspicious, he turned Io into a cow........... 🙁

Depends, Greek myths often have more then one version, though some are more "canonical" then others.

In some she is the daughter of another God, in others she is a Priestess in the temple of Hera (any relationship between the priests of different cults naturally being a big no no, and mythologically also bad for the priest of one cult to get it on with the god of another.) Regardless she and Zeus got together (question whether she was willing or not.) Hera, cold fish that she was came to investigate - and Zeus, either seeking to protect Io, or hide his actions, did the cloud stuff and changed her into a cow. Hera, not being stupid, took the cow and had one of the guardians watch her (Argus I believe, the guy with the 100 eyes) and so on. The myth goes on for longer then that with Io the cows adventures.

There are some footnote kind of myths of varying size/importance that also have Zeus coming to her in the form of a bull and impregnating her. All very soap show-ish. One of the reasons why I like the ancient myths so much more then many of the modern monotheistic religions - the stories and vibrant myths are so much more interesting.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
The myth goes on for longer then that with Io the cows adventures.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
One of the reasons why I like the ancient myths so much more then many of the modern monotheistic religions - the stories and vibrant myths are so much more interesting.

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
Urizen, fess up now...you got this ammo from "The Divinci Code", didn't you? Didn't you? LOL.

never read the book, never saw the movie. looks interesting, but then again its just Fiction...nothing to take seriously

Anyone who ACTUALLY READS the Bible themselves can find what I'm talking about above.

Nice Try 👇

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
Good Lord, Dan Brown is a moron and a thinly-disguised Roman Catholic bigot to boot, so I wouldn't pay his little diatribe against the sexist, anti-feminsit origins of Christianity too much attention.

He has ammunition though Z.....The Bible itself contains much hatred in it already. It encourages violence, slavery, and torment.

That's the point.

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
You apparently agree with Dan Brown that the Church has been part of a 2000 year conspiracy to oppress women. I would argue that the Church, especially the Roman Catholic Church, argues for the unique mystery and special dignity of women against the dehumanizing, androgynous pressures of modern culture.

No...The Church is ever evolving....The Christian institutions and early churches may have started out as a liberation from religious persecution, but then became exactly what it tried to escape...

a means of control.

Just check out the Salem Witch Trials, Inquisition, Crusades and other atrocities that Christianity (as well as other religions) are responsible for.

Then tell me that NONE of those things can be justified by versus in the Bible.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
No...The Church is ever evolving....The Christian institutions and early churches may have started out as a liberation from religious persecution, but then became exactly what it tried to escape...

a means of control.

Not especially. Not long after Constantine made Christianity the state religion they started taking temples away from the pagans, forcing pagan statesmen and intellectuals out of offices and so on. And they started being nasty to people of their own, but slightly different faith. Case found in Africa, where, during one of the prior Christian persecutions a large portion of the Christian population had obeyed the Roman Edicts and handed over their texts for destruction and waited out the persecution without dying. The Christians who didn't obey felt they were more Christian then those that had and petitioned to have those that obeyed cast out and prevented from attaining Church office - it even ended up in violence pretty quickly, a schism that lasted a very long time.

The only time the Christians really displayed the noble attitude was when they weren't the dominant power. When they achieved that , well, that's history.

Agreed............the word 'God" is tainted.............what I would call god is not really influencial, but takes a back seat until called upon through our thoughts.......ie the creative process again.......thoughts are creative right??? As are our actions which derive from thoughts.........God is in all things.

Many other cultures understood this yin/yang.......cause/effect of things..........we today, blame it on Satan vs god, which stems from fables.

* i would like to comment on this...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
1) All the Authors of the Bible were men

* first off...

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
Galatians 3:28

* in this sense, we are all one in Christ, no male or female... however, there is always a hierarchy of authority...

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God ."
I Corinthians 11:3

* it goes like: God - Christ - man - woman... i don't see any problem with that, it does not demean women in any way...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
2) Women were never given right to be part of the Clergy (nuns don't count, they cannot become preists or bishops)

"But I commend to you Phoebe, our sister, who is minister of the assembly which is in Cenchrea;"
The Romans 16:1

* Phoebe is obviously a female and was a minister...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
3) The Bible CLEARLY states that women must submit to the will of men

* due to the hierarchy... as long as the men were of God, no problem about that...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
4) Mary Magdeline was labeled a prostitute, and NOT an APOSTLE when she was one of Jesus' most faithful servants. There's evidense to suggest that she wasn't even a prostitute.

* Christ chose 12 apostles, all are males... Magdalene is a faithful servant and follower of Christ but she surely was not an apostle...

* prostitute or not, the Bible does NOT demean Magdalene, in fact, eventhough she was written as a woman whom 7 demons came out of, she was not an outcast but a close servant and follower of Christ...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
5) The introduction of evil to Humanity is blamed on EVE, a woman.

* false, the blame was not on Eve, for she was only deceived...

"And Adam was not beguiled, but the woman being beguiled hath fallen into transgression:"
I Timothy 2:14

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity that is toward Christ."
II Corinthians 11:3

* the blame was on...

"Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:--"
The Romans 5:12

* on Adam...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
6) God is the FATHER.....there is no mother of humankind. Only a mother of Jesus.

* the Father is GOD... God needs no female to create human...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
7) All angels mentioned in the Bible are male.

* true, but having no female angels does not seem to demean women...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
8) Women came from the rib of man, even though we are all born of women 🙄

* the reason why Eve came from the rib of Adam is because of physical compatibility - their age, their bodies, etc... they should be physically compatible for each other...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
The Bible has much support for Patriarchy and nothing but contempt for women being equals to men.

* IMO, i think not...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
never read the book, never saw the movie. looks interesting, but then again its just Fiction...nothing to take seriously

Anyone who ACTUALLY READS the Bible themselves can find what I'm talking about above.

Nice Try 👇

Here's my recommendation, Lord U: you don't need to pick it up. You've already absorbed all the material.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
No...The Church is ever evolving....The Christian institutions and early churches may have started out as a liberation from religious persecution, but then became exactly what it tried to escape...

a means of control.

Just check out the Salem Witch Trials, Inquisition, Crusades and other atrocities that Christianity (as well as other religions) are responsible for.

Then tell me that NONE of those things can be justified by versus in the Bible.

"A means of control" suggests a rather cynical view of the historical church. I am not here to defend the sinful actions of individual popes or venial ecclesiastic princes during the Middle Ages or Renaissance, but to suggest that the church, since soon after its inception, has been nothing more than some kind of instrument of political control is not born out by the facts. In fact, even when the church was vested with temporal powers in the middle ages, it often fought with secular princes over the right to protect it's own interests. The papacy and the state rarely saw eye to eye.

What's more, your statement does a vast disservice to the many individual saints who suffered and worked to live out their beliefs in the world. The world surely would have been a poorer place without Francis Xavier, Augustine, St. Francis, Thomas More, Mother Theresa, Pope John Paul II, Vincent De Paul, etc...These men and women worked among the poor and needy, helped liberate oppressed peoples, established institutions of higher learning, and brought love and charity to people that needed it. Say what you will about individual abuses within the institution, but the vision that inspired these people was real.

As to your citing of the Salem Witch Trials and Inquisition, I agree that these were terrible events born out of the same kind of misplaced hysteria that led to the killing of Jews during medieval pogroms all over Europe. However, these instances alone do not prove that the Church's actions in totum are evil or wrong. Human beings are fallible and flawed no matter what belief system they subscribe to.

The Crusades, I take issue with. I certainly wouldn't call them an atrocity. They were more like ill-conceived military adventures. As I posted in another thread, the Crusades were largely a rearguard action in response to more than 300 years of unremitting Muslim military conquest and aggression throughout the Middle East, the Near East, North Africa, and even the outskirts of Western Europe. The Crusades were the first time that the impoverished and relatively backwards West mustered enough unity to actually strike back and take the offensive for awhile.

Originally posted by Regret
That is merely a close minded interpretation. God is alpha and omega: he is the beginning and the end of everything as far as man is concerned. Nothing was before him and nothing is after him as far as man is concerned. It isn't absolute. The terms used in scripture are in reference to organization, creation in that he used the existing matter and created things from it, not in creation of something from a vacuum.

Yes, but in Genesis 1:1 (In the beginning, when God created the heavens and the earth), the term for created is the Hebrew "bara" which does in fact mean create from a vacuum.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
There so cute when thier young....they think they know everything...awwww

Wow, quite the jackass aren't we?

Asking the questions who made God is a self-contradiction in the sense that it assumes that God is a created being, while his very attribute of creator (ex nihilo) says otherwise. He is by definition the unchanging source of change. You may object and say, well I don't believe that God is the unchanging source of change. Fine - but then, you don't believe in God.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
God must have been [b]BORED AS HELL before he created us.....

With all that TIME on his hands....nothing to do..... [/B]

There was NO TIME before God created anything. Time is the measure of the movement of things, and no things existed. God exists in an eternal now. He holds and comprehends all time in an instant - and is outside of it, like an author of a book.

And God can't be bored, because he's perfect.

Originally posted by The Achiever
Asking the questions who made God is a self-contradiction in the sense that it assumes that God is a created being, while his very attribute of creator (ex nihilo) says otherwise. He is by definition the unchanging source of change. You may object and say, well I don't believe that God is the unchanging source of change. Fine - but then, you don't believe in God.

I Object!

Where is this proof that "God" is Uncreated or "the unchanging source of change"?

Lets not use Baseless Assumptions in trying to prove "God's" existence.