Originally posted by Rampant ox
Exactly. Dooku toying with Anakin was still stronger than Maul going (arguably) his strongest against Obi-Wan.
Uh, what? That didn't make any sense, and what does Maul have to do with anything? Maul would beat Dooku if he fought the way he was toying with AOTC Anakin, so you're wrong.
Im sorry I missed your point Advent, but either way the comment by Darth Sexy is illogical. Dook is far better than Maul so you cant use their respective fights as a basis for this battle.
I would say that AOTC Anakin would win, as long as he doesnt lose his head. Anakin is faster than Kenobi and has more natural talent with a blade. He was also one of the few jedi who survived the battle of Geonosis. I also recall Anakin taming a reek, the same Reek that almost killed Mace Windu.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
I would say that AOTC Anakin would win, as long as he doesnt lose his head.
Which in AOTC, is what Anakin tends to do a lot. Against Dooku, and even in the beginning of AOTC.
Anakin is faster than Kenobi
Prove this. Obi-Wan's speed is what helped him against Maul, and we all know how fast, and agile Maul is. Anakin's speed . . . got his arm lopped off? Not saying Obi-Wan's faster, or diminishing Anakin as a character, but you need to prove this assertion.
and has more natural talent with a blade.
However, he's not at that point where that "natural talent" would be able to overcome Obi-Wan effectively. He's only had ten years training at this point, while it's impressive considering how rapid Anakin's power grows, it's not enough to grant him the win over Obi-Wan, who's had . . . twenty four years training, and was about to become a Jedi Knight.
He was also one of the few jedi who survived the battle of Geonosis.
Irrelevant. How is this going to beat Obi-Wan? It's not, so don't mention it.
I also recall Anakin taming a reek, the same Reek that almost killed Mace Windu.
Irrelevant. How is this going to beat Obi-Wan? It's not, so don't mention it.
Originally posted by Advent
Uh, what? That didn't make any sense, and what does Maul have to do with anything? Maul would beat Dooku if he fought the way he was toying with AOTC Anakin, so you're wrong.
Dooku wasn't toying with Anakin. Noticed with Obi-Wan he was taunting him throughout the fight but with Anakin he was dead serious; never said a world. His face was completely focused.
I have to say Anakin would win.
Originally posted by ESB -1138
Dooku wasn't toying with Anakin.
Yeah, and I am Egregious Prevaricator, respected scholar and grower of pipeweed.
Noticed with Obi-Wan he was taunting him throughout the fight but with Anakin he was dead serious; never said a world. His face was completely focused.
Mmhm. Sure, he wasn't toying with him - I mean, he couldn't hurt him! Which is probably why he disarmed Anakin's second lightsaber within exactly 6 seconds. And which is why the AOTC novel says "Anakin was expending many times the energy of the efficient Dooku, and as soon as he tired..."
But yeah, despite the Count not even using nearly as much energy, disarming Anakin (literally), he wasn't toying with him, he was giving it all he had! When he sliced Anakin's arm off, that was toying with him. He could've easily killed him if he wanted to, but he didn't at that moment.
Originally posted by Advent
Which in AOTC, is what Anakin tends to do a lot. Against Dooku, and even in the beginning of AOTC.
He had good reason to get angry in AOTC, but I see your point. However in this battle there is nothing to suggest that Anakin will get angry and lose control.
Prove this. Obi-Wan's speed is what helped him against Maul, and we all know how fast, and agile Maul is. Anakin's speed . . . got his arm lopped off?
Obi-Wan was fast against Maul because he had lost control of his emotions. Also I would argue that the Count is as fast as Maul anyway - he was able to keep up with Yoda, whose attacks are described as a humming blur of light. But seeing there is no reason that either person will lose control in this fight the point is moot I guess. We dont have evidence to prove their duelling speed in a level headed duel.
However, he's not at that point where that "natural talent" would be able to overcome Obi-Wan effectively. He's only had ten years training at this point, while it's impressive considering how rapid Anakin's power grows, it's not enough to grant him the win over Obi-Wan, who's had . . . twenty four years training
I beg to differ. AOTC Anakin was able to duel with Count Dooku longer than AOTC Obi-Wan - and AOTC Obi-Wan is above TPM Obi-Wan. So while Kenobis years of training might help him, this doesnt mean that he will win. I mena, Dooku had 50 - 60 years on Anakin and still lost.
and was about to become a Jedi Knight.
So is Anakin at the end of AOTC. Point moot.
Irrelevant. How is this going to beat Obi-Wan? It's not, so don't mention it.
I mention it because TPM Obi-Wan wouldnt have been able to survive in that arena, especially when experienced jedi masters lost there lives.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
He had good reason to get angry in AOTC, but I see your point. However in this battle there is nothing to suggest that Anakin will get angry and lose control.
What was his "good reason" to not listen to his master . . .? And what was his reason to be considered reckless throughout the entire movie practically? Anakin is naturally headstrong, foolhardy, and an idiot. Obi-Wan is not.
Obi-Wan was fast against Maul because he had lost control of his emotions.
Wrong.
It doesn't say he was fast against Maul because of that. It says he's quicker than Qui-Gon, ergo he was able to "anticipate each blow". I find it hard to believe he can anticipate (predict) Maul's attacks while being in a blaze of fury.
Also I would argue that the Count is as fast as Maul anyway - he was able to keep up with Yoda, whose attacks are described as a humming blur of light.
Excuse me while I just ROFL my waffle.
ROFL.
Okay. Anyways, Maul > Dooku in speed. This is a given, you can argue it all you want, but you'd be completely wrong. Qui-Gon Jinn's age does play an effect in his speed, and this is made apparent in the novelization, so it's ridiculous to think Dooku's doesn't.
Maul's far faster than Dooku, don't even be ridiculous. He's described as "a warrior in his prime", referring to his physique, and physical abilities, and his speed is noted on several occasions.
But seeing there is no reason that either person will lose control in this fight the point is moot I guess. We dont have evidence to prove their duelling speed in a level headed duel.
So why did you say Anakin is faster? You made the assertion, but now you're saying you can't prove it and trying to direct away from the fact you can't? Bravo, Rampant.
I beg to differ. AOTC Anakin was able to duel with Count Dooku longer than AOTC Obi-Wan - and AOTC Obi-Wan is above TPM Obi-Wan.
So because he dueled longer, he's better? By this logic, Windu > Yoda because he had a longer saber duel, and TPM Obi-Wan > Qui-Gon Jinn.
Oh, and so you know - by this logic again, ROTS Obi-Wan > Count Dooku, since Obi-Wan lasted longer. Your point collapses.
So while Kenobis years of training might help him, this doesnt mean that he will win. I mena, Dooku had 50 - 60 years on Anakin and still lost.
ROTS Anakin is far different from his AOTC incarnation.
Originally posted by Advent
However, he's not at that point where that "natural talent" would be able to overcome Obi-Wan effectively.
I mention it because TPM Obi-Wan wouldnt have been able to survive in that arena,
Ridiculous assertion that begs for proof.
especially when experienced jedi masters lost there lives.
So AOTC Anakin > Jedi Masters? No. Ridiculous assertion, irrelevant to this fight, and quite frankly the dumbest thing I've heard so far all day; although, it's only been four hours into, so we'll see.
Wrong.
It doesn't say he was fast against Maul because of that. It says he's quicker than Qui-Gon, ergo he was able to "anticipate each blow". I find it hard to believe he can anticipate (predict) Maul's attacks while being in a blaze of fury.
I have to disagree. Form II requires little effort to pull off and is capable of making cuts, parries, and thrusts will little effort thus allowing Dooku to not waste his energy and move quicky. If anything Dooku is a lot better duelist then Maul.
Originally posted by AdventWhat was his "good reason" to not listen to his master . . .? And what was his reason to be considered reckless throughout the entire movie practically? Anakin is naturally headstrong, foolhardy, and an idiot. Obi-Wan is not.
His reason was that Dooku had just captured him, captured his master, captured his girl friend, sentenced them to death, killed an array of jedi and seriously hurt Padme (or so Anakin thinks). This is why he lost his temper and ran in like an idiot.
It doesn't say he was fast against Maul because of that. It says he's quicker than Qui-Gon, ergo he was able to "anticipate each blow". I find it hard to believe he can anticipate (predict) Maul's attacks while being in a blaze of fury.
No. " He struck at the Sith Lord with his lightsaber as if his own safety meant nothing, lost in a red haze of rage and frustration, consumed by his grief for Qui-Gon and his failure to prevent his friend's fall. The Sith Lord was borne backward by the Jedi Knight's initial rush, caught off guard by the other's wild assault, " There it states that Maul was forced backwards because of Obi-Wans rage. At no other point in the novel or script does it show Kenobi having the advantage - this is because at no other point was Kenobi in a rage.
Okay. Anyways, Maul > Dooku in speed. This is a given, you can argue it all you want, but you'd be completely wrong. Qui-Gon Jinn's age does play an effect in his speed, and this is made apparent in the novelization, so it's ridiculous to think Dooku's doesn't.Maul's far faster than Dooku, don't even be ridiculous. He's described as "a warrior in his prime", referring to his physique, and physical abilities, and his speed is noted on several occasions.
I still disagree, but it is a matter of opinion I think. Dooku was able to go against Yoda - arguably the fastest duellist of the era. Makashi is a fairly fast form, it uses thrusts instead of swings meaning that the blade doesnt have to move as far - thus giving Makashi more speed than other forms.
So because he dueled longer, he's better? By this logic, Yoda > Windu because he had a longer saber duel, and TPM Obi-Wan > Qui-Gon Jinn.
Yoda is better than Mace, and Qui-Gon got tired because of his age, Obi-Wan sped up and fought better because he was enraged.
Oh, and so you know - by this logic again, ROTS Obi-Wan > Count Dooku, since Obi-Wan lasted longer. Your point collapses.
Hardly. ROTS Anakin and Obi-Wan knew each others moves almost off by heart, they had fought next to each other for many years. Quite different to the example I provided.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
His reason was that Dooku had just captured him, captured his master, captured his girl friend, sentenced them to death, killed an array of jedi and seriously hurt Padme (or so Anakin thinks). This is why he lost his temper and ran in like an idiot.
I didn't see Obi-Wan charging at him like an idiot just because he killed Jedi, sentenced them to death, etc.
As well, can you explain why Anakin is reckless in the beginning of AOTC? And why he is described as reckless throughout the entire movie?
No. " He struck at the Sith Lord with his lightsaber as if his own safety meant nothing, lost in a red haze of rage and frustration, consumed by his grief for Qui-Gon and his failure to prevent his friend's fall. The Sith Lord was borne backward by the Jedi Knight's initial rush, caught off guard by the other's wild assault, " There it states that Maul was forced backwards because of Obi-Wans rage. At no other point in the novel or script does it show Kenobi having the advantage - this is because at no other point was Kenobi in a rage.
You're an idiot. If you'd have actually read the TPM novel, and not copy and paste what I wrote in the other topic, you'd know what I was talking about. Learn the actual source material.
Here is what you wrote and what I'm arguing:
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Obi-Wan was fast against Maul because he had lost control of his emotions.
You were arguing about Obi-Wan's speed being able to keep up because he was in a blind rage, you were wrong. Here's the actual thing:
"...lunging and twisting, Darth Maul regained the offensive and counterattacked, using both ends of his lightsaber in an effort to cut Obi-Wan's legs out from under him. But Obi-Wan, while not so experienced as Qui-Gon, was quicker. Anticipating each blow, he was able to elude his antagonist's efforts to bring him down. "
^
Since you like to skirt the actual point, make shit up, and not have a clue what you're talking about, I'll just explain to you what all this means.
Obi-Wan did catch Maul off guard because he was in a rage initially. After that, Maul regained composure, and was attacking Obi-Wan, and Maul went for a sweeping movie apparently, and it was due to Obi-Wan's being faster than Qui-Gon (not because he was in a rage), he was able to anticipate Maul's moves. He was not in a "blind fury" when doing that, because:
1.) When it describes Obi-Wan in a frenzy it says this "lost in a red haze of rage and frustration" and that his assault was "wild".
Which leads me to...
2.) It'd be seemingly impossible to predict beforehand one's moves when you are that pissed off, that is what anticipate means.
The point is: Obi-Wan was quicker than Qui-Gon, ergo he was able to predict Maul's moves. Not because he was in a frenzy, but because he was faster than Jinn.
Yoda is better than Mace,
I meant to put "by this logic Mace > Yoda because he lasted longer in a saber duel against Sidious".
So, your logic and point collapses.
and Qui-Gon got tired because of his age, Obi-Wan sped up and fought better because he was enraged.
Either way, your point collapses.
Hardly. ROTS Anakin and Obi-Wan knew each others moves almost off by heart, they had fought next to each other for many years. Quite different to the example I provided.
Either way, your point collapses.
Originally posted by ESB -1138
I have to disagree. Form II requires little effort to pull off and is capable of making cuts, parries, and thrusts will little effort thus allowing Dooku to not waste his energy and move quicky. If anything Dooku is a lot better duelist then Maul.
What in the f*cking world are you talking about? Where in the f*cking world did I say anything about Dooku, and where in the f*ck does Makashi (Form II) come in. I'm discussing the reason that Obi-Wan was able to compete with Maul because of his speed. You need to either:
a.) Learn what you are talking about.
b.) Get your spectacles examined.
c.) Don't post.
I'd suggest all three, but it's up to you. I'm not going to hold your hand, just offer advice.
Another one of the famous Motoko vs Rampant thread...
*Announcer's voice*
Well folks the two contesters for today are the famous Motoko and none other than the infamous Rampat Oxxxx!!!!!!
So far Rampant as been true to his name, rampaging through the thread with wild and unsupported garbage. Motoko is quick to counter however with a powerful defence of durasteel strong logic, but is it enough to stem the tide against Rampant's doggedness? Only time will tell...
Originally posted by Advent
What in the f*cking world are you talking about? Where in the f*cking world did I say anything about Dooku, and where in the f*ck does Makashi (Form II) come in. I'm discussing the reason that Obi-Wan was able to compete with Maul because of his speed. You need to either:a.) Learn what you are talking about.
b.) Get your spectacles examined.
c.) Don't post.I'd suggest all three, but it's up to you. I'm not going to hold your hand, just offer advice.
How f*cking retarded are you!? You said Maul was faster then Count Dooku. So the only way to determine speed would be to determine the speed of opponents (via: Maul and Dooku)
a.) Know what the f*ck you are b*tching about
b.) Get your f*cking head checked
c.) STFU
I'd suggest all three, but it's up to you. I'm not going to hold your hand, just offer advice to the retarded