Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I have found that belief can be discussed, but it is very difficult, just look at the world today. I just didn't understand why you said; . Now I do, thanks.
Sorry....
Forget my rather sporadic and philosophically-challenged posts today....I'm in a weird place right now....
Originally posted by Belegûr
Well, I just don't see the point anymore of one person speaking to another about their religious beliefs or disbeliefs - because the other will always believe what they want to believe, etc.Religious discussion seems to me pointless.
In general I tend to agree. There may be some room for discussion if we proceed from a single premise.
Take this forum for example.
Premise: God puts "bad people" in an unending Hell (fire, brimstone, pain, torment) from which they can never extricate themselves.
Now if everyone were to argue from that premise, whether they agree with it or not (I don't by the way), then we could carry on an intelligent discussion.
Based on that premise I'd say that either God couldn't really love the "bad people", or He isn't really all-powerful.
If you reverse the premise (ie: the premise is that God loves everyone), then I would think it would be logical that Hell couldn't be what was previously described.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
California? 😆
😂
I wish...
Nay, I've only been to the States a few times - and never that far south or west.
Originally posted by docb77
In general I tend to agree. There may be some room for discussion if we proceed from a single premise.Take this forum for example.
Premise: God puts "bad people" in an unending Hell (fire, brimstone, pain, torment) from which they can never extricate themselves.
Now if everyone were to argue from that premise, whether they agree with it or not (I don't by the way), then we could carry on an intelligent discussion.
Based on that premise I'd say that either God couldn't really love the "bad people", or He isn't really all-powerful.
If you reverse the premise (ie: the premise is that God loves everyone), then I would think it would be logical that Hell couldn't be what was previously described.
Yes, see, that is essentially what I mean.
And I agree that since God condemns people to Hell, he can't really be seen to love them, (at least in my view)....
Originally posted by Belegûr
😂I wish...
Nay, I've only been to the States a few times - and never that far south or west.Yes, see, that is essentially what I mean.
And I agree that since God condemns people to Hell, he can't really be seen to love them, (at least in my view)....
Or He's actually not quite powerful enough to save everyone from it. He would have to pick and choose as it were.
Originally posted by Belegûr
Well, that's a whole new ballgame, and would assume "Evil" has a far stronger power....
I don't see how that follows. Evil may not even come into play at all.
Let's say that without God's interference everyone ends up in Hell. Now, if God does everything he can - let's say he can save 50% (easy round number). Now he must start prioritizing people - each requirement He adds closes the number of people he's trying to save to something closer to that hypothetical 50%.
Evil in that scenario (which is about as far outside my beliefs as anything I've said in here) is simply the area where God's power doesn't reach. Evil isn't a thing, its just the absence of God's power.
All hypothetical, there are numerous other scenarios that could be imagined based on the premise of a permanent hell.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Or hell doesn't exist and the Christian religion does not really understand God.
I thought we were arguing based on the premise of the existence of hell.
If Hell, then...
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Oh well, it's hard to argue over something that you believe does not exist.
Not really, because if you don't believe in it then you aren't emotionally attached. We could have a debate about what color the tooth fairy's dress is, or how Santa Clause gets down a chiminey. That's the beauty of logic. if you accept a premise, you can go on from there.
Originally posted by docb77
Not really, because if you don't believe in it then you aren't emotionally attached. We could have a debate about what color the tooth fairy's dress is, or how Santa Clause gets down a chiminey. That's the beauty of logic. if you accept a premise, you can go on from there.
That does not really compare. I have never seen any one’s life be manipulated by fear because of the tooth fairy’s color choice.
Originally posted by docb77
How about how Santa Claus knows if you've been naughty or nice?
I don't thnk Santa Clause would send you to Hell.
Just think of it this way: Hell can only exist because God created it....nothing can exist without it being introduced to existance, and since God is the Creator only he could have created it.
Don't give me some bullshit answer about how "we" created it....unless you wanna get literal and say we created the idea of Hell, then I'll agree...otherwise, be consistant.
No Loving Parent creates Hell for thier children. If your child committed murder, would you send your child to Hell ?
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I don't thnk Santa Clause would send you to Hell.Just think of it this way: Hell can only exist because God created it....nothing can exist without it being introduced to existance, and since God is the Creator only he could have created it.
Don't give me some bullshit answer about how "we" created it....unless you wanna get literal and say we created the idea of Hell, then I'll agree...otherwise, be consistant.
No Loving Parent creates Hell for thier children. If your child committed murder, would you send your child to Hell ?
I'd say man created the idea of Hell as it is believed to exist by most Christians today.
Originally posted by Regret
I'd say man created the idea of Hell as it is believed to exist by most Christians today.
Either way...if your child didn't obey you to his or her fullest, even after knowing you truly exist 🙄 .....would you banish him or her to an eternity of not being with you ? Would you sentence YOURSELF to an eternity of not being with them ?
A Loving God could not possibly banish his own children, the children HE LOVES, for disobeying him. Wouldn't it torture God to disallow himself from seeing his children EVER again ?
And BTW, the Bible mentions Fire, Brimstone, and Torment in Hell...how can you say that that's not what Hell is when that's what it says in the Bible ?
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Either way...if your child didn't obey you to his or her fullest, even after knowing you truly exist 🙄 .....would you banish him or her to an eternity of not being with you ? Would you sentence YOURSELF to an eternity of not being with them ?A Loving God could not possibly banish his own children, the children HE LOVES, for disobeying him. Wouldn't it torture God to disallow himself from seeing his children EVER again ?
And BTW, the Bible mentions Fire, Brimstone, and Torment in Hell...how can you say that that's not what Hell is when that's what it says in the Bible ?
Your analogy of my son is off.
If my son went and was truant during school, was unable to enter college, after I'd told him that he needed to go to school to be able to get a decent job, and then he ended up only being able to get a job cleaning toilets with a toothbrush, I might be unable to ever help him get a better job.
This is a more accurate analogy of the situation from a Mormon view.
There are also statements describing the feeling of the Holy Spirit as a burning within. Is it literal? I would assume not. Descriptive language does not necessitate literal language.
Originally posted by Regret
Your analogy of my son is off.If my son went and was truant during school, was unable to enter college, after I'd told him that he needed to go to school to be able to get a decent job, and then he ended up only being able to get a job cleaning toilets with a toothbrush, I might be unable to ever help him get a better job.
This is a more accurate analogy of the situation from a Mormon view.
There are also statements describing the feeling of the Holy Spirit as a burning within. Is it literal? I would assume not. Descriptive language does not necessitate literal language.
I LOVE how you keep changing your analogies lol 😆