Originally posted by leonheartmm
u just weakened ur own case. according to u every1 who lived before christ's time goes to hell by default. the good and the bad. also ur saying that from the day a baby is born he is EVIL and deserves HELL. so any baby whose had a miscarriage or dies before he can be old enough to accept ANY faith goes to hell. and the very idea of god adhering to RULES destroyes his omnipotence. i dont misunderstand anything. ur the one who does along with other believers of organised relegion.
Sorry, but you do misunderstand. Christ's sacrifice was infinite. It goes both ways, forward in time and backwards. If you were Good before Christ that sacrifice does you as much good as being good after. What I'm saying isn't that Christ made it possible for certain people to be saved, but that He made it possible for EVERYONE to be saved.
Like I said, there's more to it than what I said in that small post, but I can give some examples.
My belief is that all little children are automatically covered. I also believe that everyone will get the chance to accept or reject the gift Christ offers, whether in this life or in the next.
As far as Rules destroying the omnipotence of God 2 things -
-How does that destroy power? Rules don't increase or decrease the power of the person following them, they just direct the use of such power.
-Who says that God has to be literally omnipotent? The scriptures use such phrases as All-powerful, or Lord of lords. In the poetic language of the ancient hebrews, that could just mean the most powerful being in all of creation.
so ur admitting to some things being beyond god's POWER? that takes away him being ALL POWERFUL. all mean ALL without fail. rules direct FINITE power INFINITE POWER is NOT bound by rules since it is BEYOND them and to CHANNEL it in one way and having other ways left wihout it makes it FINITE. and i get what your saying about people bing GOOD, but then again thats not what the BIBLE says is it. and the criteria for good has mostly nonsesnical expectation which any1 BEFORE christ{or even now} can not be expected to know. so really how do people before christ KNOW how to be good? u really need to see the bog picture.
many christians believe in GOOD things{things which have philanthropic/non selfish implications practical or otherwise} but if u actually read the bible and not try to interpret it in a non realistically good way{and even that doesnt work many times} ull find that those good ASSUMPTIONS have no CHRISTIANIC backing at all.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
so ur admitting to some things being beyond god's POWER? that takes away him being ALL POWERFUL. all mean ALL without fail. rules direct FINITE power INFINITE POWER is NOT bound by rules since it is BEYOND them and to CHANNEL it in one way and having other ways left wihout it makes it FINITE. and i get what your saying about people bing GOOD, but then again thats not what the BIBLE says is it. and the criteria for good has mostly nonsesnical expectation which any1 BEFORE christ{or even now} can not be expected to know. so really how do people before christ KNOW how to be good? u really need to see the bog picture.
Ok, let's go back to the beginning. Adam and Eve. They just got evicted from the Garden and are now in the world. so the question is how do they, and their descendents, know what is good and what's not.
There are multiple ways here. One is that God tells them, same way he told them, "don't eat that fruit."
Another is that knowledge of good and evil is somehow inherent.
third, Christs sacrifice makes it possible for a person to be saved, so long as He lives to the best of his knowledge. Which would mean that a person who never heard of Christ wouldn't have to believe to get the benefits of Christ's sacrifice.
4th possibility - those who had an incomplete knowledge will have some sort of "overtime" in the next life. They will learn what they missed and get the chance to live it.
The all powerful thing - In our thinking all does indeed mean all without exception. The ancient Israelites thought a bit more poetically. An example is when Jesus said that the mustard seed was "the smallest of all seeds", now, we know that it isn't - grass seeds are certainly smaller. But using that kind of language helped to artistically make a point. Our western culture thinks like architects - precision, accuracy, etc - while the ancient eastern cultures tended to be more artistic in their speach and writings - broad strokes, symbolism, etc. The all in all-powerful could indeed just mean supremely powerful.
My personal belief (not sanctioned by christianity at large I suppose) is that God's power is derived from knowledge. God has a perfect knowledge of how the universe works. He uses that knowledge to do His work, from the creation, to now.
Originally posted by Regret
Leonheartmm, is God good or evil?
Leonheartmm is BEYOND GOOD AND EVIL!!!!!! 💃 💃 💃
thats what id like to say but really im a pretty good guy and there isnt much at all about my actions or intentions that ways otherwise. heck im probably good even by a relegious point of view{well some of it} but i understand that the only REAL goodness is to be judged by logic and intentions of the individual. anything that BENEFITS others id good to me and not just benefit materialistically. emotionally.spiritually{if there is such a thing} etc. and being non selfish/humble is ....PLEASANT but one shouldnt belittle or blame oneself for ridiculous things like MEN ARE BORN EVIL/ORIGINAL SIN/THE ONLY WAY I CAN "ATONE" FOR BEING BORN A MAN IS A LIFE OF DEDICATION TO JESUS/ALLAH/YAHWEH. thats stupid and self deteriorating. believe u are good and make that a reality as best as u can with what uve got.
but pbvioulsy there are people, relegious people who think otherwise. in whose eyes logical goodness means nothing and illogical apparently claimed goodness written in old fake dogmatic books and ideologies/taboos means everything.
{Ok, let's go back to the beginning. Adam and Eve. They just got evicted from the Garden and are now in the world. so the question is how do they, and their descendents, know what is good and what's not.}
{There are multiple ways here. One is that God tells them, same way he told them, "don't eat that fruit." }
are u talking about god speaking directly to humans? there is no proof or even evidence of this with normal individuals. there have always been people who claimed it/prohpets etc but most of them claimed of very different gods speaking to them. how does one tell which one is right{and we know today that most if not all of it was bs}
{Another is that knowledge of good and evil is somehow inherent.}
now this i dont understand. the OPPOSITE seems to be true, the only thing inherent is INSTINCTS and almost ALL of those lead you to sins according to the definition of a sin in the bible/christianity e.g lust,selfishness{desire for survival}, sexual urges with ALL women, cruelty, anger, hate. these are tools for biological survival,not to mention rape, murder etc}
{third, Christs sacrifice makes it possible for a person to be saved, so long as He lives to the best of his knowledge. Which would mean that a person who never heard of Christ wouldn't have to believe to get the benefits of Christ's sacrifice.}
i dont think there is any backing for that in the bible. reguardless many BAD people live to the BEST of their knowledge, including drug addicts, rapist, murderers not to mention people pf other relegion who to the BEST OF THEIR KNOWLEDGE understand christianity to be wrong and false, what of them?
{4th possibility - those who had an incomplete knowledge will have some sort of "overtime" in the next life. They will learn what they missed and get the chance to live it.}
thats not what the bible says though is it? it fixes criteria for bad and further backs them, and tells of which kind of people will go to hell. not considering absolute mental cases{literally} ALL men have a REASON for doing what they do and its the best they can do with what theyve GOT{mentality, upbringing, enviornment, living conditions, ideologies etc}
{The all powerful thing - In our thinking all does indeed mean all without exception. The ancient Israelites thought a bit more poetically. An example is when Jesus said that the mustard seed was "the smallest of all seeds", now, we know that it isn't - grass seeds are certainly smaller. But using that kind of language helped to artistically make a point. Our western culture thinks like architects - precision, accuracy, etc - while the ancient eastern cultures tended to be more artistic in their speach and writings - broad strokes, symbolism, etc. The all in all-powerful could indeed just mean supremely powerful.}
yes but again u should be very clear YOURSELF about what u mean by that. and u ARE saying that god is more powerful than any1 else but still his power IS FINITE as opposed to being infinite. that goes in DIRECT opposition of the very fundamental idea of a single christian/muslim/jew god.
{My personal belief (not sanctioned by christianity at large I suppose) is that God's power is derived from knowledge. God has a perfect knowledge of how the universe works. He uses that knowledge to do His work, from the creation, to now. }
not going into the details of how PRACTICALLY that is opposed on solid ground by what is happening in the real world. it is YOUR view as u say and NOT supported by most christians and what else? its NOT supported by the bible itself, infact its opposed by it. thats a fact. one more reason for u to understand just how controlling and WRONG logically{and hence morally} the bible or any other abrahamic relegion really is.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Both! But you would expect an answer like that from me. 😉
Yeah 😉 I was curious as to Leonheart's stance on the subject. I do believe he's stated that he was atheist though or at least agnostic.
But, I don't need a response really.
Here is what I was going to get at:
If God is good and not evil, then he is limited by virtue of the distinction. If one believes that God is good, as well as unchanging, then he is unable to be evil. Therefore, he is limited in that he is not able to behave in an evil manner, not to mention that he is unable to change. Given this, all Bible based religions have to believe in a limited God.
Originally posted by Regret
Yeah 😉 I was curious as to Leonheart's stance on the subject. I do believe he's stated that he was atheist though or at least agnostic.But, I don't need a response really.
Here is what I was going to get at:
If God is good and not evil, then he is limited by virtue of the distinction. If one believes that God is good, as well as unchanging, then he is unable to be evil. Therefore, he is limited in that he is not able to behave in an evil manner, not to mention that he is unable to change. Given this, all Bible based religions have to believe in a limited God.
I agree. Good and evil is something that we do. Also, change is something that we do. God is beyond these concepts in ways we can never fathom.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
{Ok, let's go back to the beginning. Adam and Eve. They just got evicted from the Garden and are now in the world. so the question is how do they, and their descendents, know what is good and what's not.}{There are multiple ways here. One is that God tells them, same way he told them, "don't eat that fruit." }
are u talking about god speaking directly to humans? there is no proof or even evidence of this with normal individuals. there have always been people who claimed it/prohpets etc but most of them claimed of very different gods speaking to them. how does one tell which one is right{and we know today that most if not all of it was bs}
{Another is that knowledge of good and evil is somehow inherent.}
now this i dont understand. the OPPOSITE seems to be true, the only thing inherent is INSTINCTS and almost ALL of those lead you to sins according to the definition of a sin in the bible/christianity e.g lust,selfishness{desire for survival}, sexual urges with ALL women, cruelty, anger, hate. these are tools for biological survival,not to mention rape, murder etc}
{third, Christs sacrifice makes it possible for a person to be saved, so long as He lives to the best of his knowledge. Which would mean that a person who never heard of Christ wouldn't have to believe to get the benefits of Christ's sacrifice.}
i dont think there is any backing for that in the bible. reguardless many BAD people live to the BEST of their knowledge, including drug addicts, rapist, murderers not to mention people pf other relegion who to the BEST OF THEIR KNOWLEDGE understand christianity to be wrong and false, what of them?
{4th possibility - those who had an incomplete knowledge will have some sort of "overtime" in the next life. They will learn what they missed and get the chance to live it.}
thats not what the bible says though is it? it fixes criteria for bad and further backs them, and tells of which kind of people will go to hell. not considering absolute mental cases{literally} ALL men have a REASON for doing what they do and its the best they can do with what theyve GOT{mentality, upbringing, enviornment, living conditions, ideologies etc}
{The all powerful thing - In our thinking all does indeed mean all without exception. The ancient Israelites thought a bit more poetically. An example is when Jesus said that the mustard seed was "the smallest of all seeds", now, we know that it isn't - grass seeds are certainly smaller. But using that kind of language helped to artistically make a point. Our western culture thinks like architects - precision, accuracy, etc - while the ancient eastern cultures tended to be more artistic in their speach and writings - broad strokes, symbolism, etc. The all in all-powerful could indeed just mean supremely powerful.}
yes but again u should be very clear YOURSELF about what u mean by that. and u ARE saying that god is more powerful than any1 else but still his power IS FINITE as opposed to being infinite. that goes in DIRECT opposition of the very fundamental idea of a single christian/muslim/jew god.
{My personal belief (not sanctioned by christianity at large I suppose) is that God's power is derived from knowledge. God has a perfect knowledge of how the universe works. He uses that knowledge to do His work, from the creation, to now. }
not going into the details of how PRACTICALLY that is opposed on solid ground by what is happening in the real world. it is YOUR view as u say and NOT supported by most christians and what else? its NOT supported by the bible itself, infact its opposed by it. thats a fact. one more reason for u to understand just how controlling and WRONG logically{and hence morally} the bible or any other abrahamic relegion really is.
Would have been easier if you'd used the quote button.
Actually very few of the possibilities I raised are direct contradictions to anything in the bible. Inherent knowledge of good and evil for example, doesn't automatically equate to being inherently good. As far as God speaking to humans goes - There wouldn't be much proof would there? Just someone saying, "yeah, God was talking to me the other day..." It's up to the rest of humanity to know whether he's telling the truth or not. In Genesis, Adam conversed directly with God - before the fall if not after. Cain, Abel, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob area all supposed to have communicated with God, either directly or via messenger (the word translated as angel often means messenger).
Regarding the "best of their knowledge" hypothesis. You said that many bad people live to the best of their knowledge. I'd have to disagree. Most of them know that stealing, rape, murder, etc. is wrong. They just think something else is more important. That's hardly living to the best of your knowledge.
As far as whether or not God is finite or infinite - I don't know. The truth is the Bible could be read either way. I just point out the possibility that God is finite in a way (although if the universe is infinite, then God would still be infinite because a fraction of infinity is still infinity. 😄 )
As far as my belief that God's power is derived from knowledge - the bible never really states what the source of God's power is. It does say that it is inherent in Him, but that doesn't preclude it being knowledge. I don't understand what you mean by modern events contradicting it. Events have always shown that knowledge is power.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Would...
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Why do you have this black or white mentality about morality?
Because morality is about making choices. Either/or. Sometimes choices are between the lesser of two evils, but this still involves identifying one choice as relatively worse or better than the other. We can be conflicted about the choices we make, but we still make a choice nonetheless. I don't see everything in this world as black and white. I just see the necessity of making moral distinctions, however imperfect they may be, and choosing.
In regard to my response to mahasattva, I think the either/or principle is clear. He or she is making an argument that a universe of objective principles can be deduced without positing a personal God. I argue that it cannot. The universe, in and of itself, is impersonal and largely indifferent to human ends. It makes no sense to talk of morality or principles, or any such thing, if these things don't adhere to a transcendent being who gives these expressions meaning.
Re: Why Would...
Originally posted by Xam
If there is a god,WHY WOULD he let us die,get murdered,get cancer,std's,DISEASES...why would he tolerate hate?Let all these children die from hiv in poor countries,let all these children die of hunger...little girls get rapped....make us feel all these bad emotions...why would he do that to us?for his amusement?i dont get it
Because it comes to end.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Would...
Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
Because morality is about making choices. Either/or. Sometimes choices are between the lesser of two evils, but this still involves identifying one choice as relatively worse or better than the other. We can be conflicted about the choices we make, but we still make a choice nonetheless. I don't see everything in this world as black and white. I just see the necessity of making moral distinctions, however imperfect they may be, and choosing.In regard to my response to mahasattva, I think the either/or principle is clear. He or she is making an argument that a universe of objective principles can be deduced without positing a personal God. I argue that it cannot. The universe, in and of itself, is impersonal and largely indifferent to human ends. It makes no sense to talk of morality or principles, or any such thing, if these things don't adhere to a transcendent being who gives these expressions meaning.
I believe in cause and effect. Every action you take or don't take is a cause that has an effect. Now this effect can be active or latent, but it does exist. Each effect in turn becomes a cause with its own effect. This all takes place at every moment. The complexity of this flow of cause and effect is mind boggling, so we will not go there. All of this, put together is what I call Karma. Even though Karma has an element of reincarnation, I am not referring to that at this time. Karma is like a flowing river, all the cause and effect combined together to make a Karmic Choice. Karmic Choice is the direction that the river is flowing.
If the universe was like you describe, you would never have unintended consequences. The way I have described it above can lead to unintended consequences. Because we don’t know how the cause that I do will react with the cause that everyone else dose (we do understand to a degree, but the complexity of cause and effect is beyond our understanding) we can from time to time have unintended consequences.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why Would...
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I believe in cause and effect. Every action you take or don't take is a cause that has an effect. Now this effect can be active or latent, but it does exist. Each effect in turn becomes a cause with its own effect. This all takes place at every moment. The complexity of this flow of cause and effect is mind boggling, so we will not go there. All of this, put together is what I call Karma. Even though Karma has an element of reincarnation, I am not referring to that at this time. Karma is like a flowing river, all the cause and effect combined together to make a Karmic Choice. Karmic Choice is the direction that the river is flowing.If the universe was like you describe, you would never have unintended consequences. The way I have described it above can lead to unintended consequences. Because we don’t know how the cause that I do will react with the cause that everyone else dose (we do understand to a degree, but the complexity of cause and effect is beyond our understanding) we can from time to time have unintended consequences.
Laying aside the Karma stuff, I agree with virtually all of the first paragraph. I don't know why the law on unintentional cause and effect disallows a personal God or removes the human obligation to make moral choices in an imperfect world.