Originally posted by Darth Sexy
When you are talking about sabers, don't say Sidous disarmed Yoda, because that would be talking about his force lightning. on the other hand Yoda DID disarm Sidious..
Which, as I was recently informed, wasn't in the RotS novelization, as well as the movie itself. The script showed it, but it is obvious that Lucas cut them out for a reason. Nor did it show up in the deleted scenes section.
It isn't canon.
For all we know, Sidious just realized that the fight between him and Yoda would take forever, and put distance between them and opted for long ranged assaults.
I, personally, would recommend dispensing with the sarcasm and then, lock your ego in a psychological box. Do you recall when you weren't too thrilled about me being sarcastic and rude with you? Treat others the way you want to be treated, they say. Don't expect to act this way and not share it.
Furthermore, you're hardly the elite debator you think you are.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Oh, so Sidious magically removed his lightsaber, and ended up on top of the senate chamber, while Yoda had his lightsaber put away and ended on the bottom. Interesting.
Mm-hmm. As opposed to that script's version, where:
- Yoda disarms Sidious.
- Sidious retaliates by using Force lightning.
- Yoda proceeds to pwn Sidious with his own Force lightning.
- Yoda then, for absolutely no reason, jumps to a Senate pod, giving his sworn enemy a fighting chance.
That is ridiculous. The scene was cut for a reason. It isn't canon. I operated under the same assumption, but it isn't.
An alternative could possibly be:
Sidious ending the saber lock and simply jumping out of the podium, and put distance in between him and Yoda.
Furthermore, let me pose a counter-question to you. Which is more believable? Sidious simply ending the saber lock and putting distance between him and Yoda, or Yoda disarming Sidious, pwning him, and Sidious still be able to escape Yoda, unarmed, despite you saying that Yoda > Sidious in both ways?
I wasn't being sarcastic to you, I was being sarcastic in general. And what's more believable? That Yoda disarmed Sidious with a saber, and Sidious being the better tactician than Yoda, found a way to use the senate chamber to his advantage(considering he is a LOT more familiar with it than Yoda), and gained the upper ground, before starting to toss pods. THATS what makes sense to me.. But then again.. And I never claimed to be an elite debator, at least not in the SW universe which I still consider myself better than average.
I wasn't being sarcastic to you, I was being sarcastic in general.
Considering how I was the person who posted the thing you were being sarcastic at, you were being sarcastic with me.
And what's more believable? That Yoda disarmed Sidious with a saber, and Sidious being the better tactician than Yoda, found a way to use the senate chamber to his advantage(considering he is a LOT more familiar with it than Yoda), and gained the upper ground, before starting to toss pods.
Oh, wait. So, let me get this straight...
Sidious unarmed and inferior to Yoda in both the Force and in saber skills, as you claim, is able to evade Yoda, despite being on a small podium with him, and is able to put that much distance between them due to sheer tactics?
Sidious is the smarter fighter, but Yoda was the Jedi's foremost tactition. If you think Sidious is that good against a foe as superior as you make Yoda out to be, then you're out of you're mind.
ok so let me get this straight, Yoda and Sidious were fighting on top of the podium then Yoda ended up at the bottom and Sidious ended up at the top without a saber? I would still say Sidious is inferior to Yoda in the force by ROTS but by only a hair(like Yoda and Mace), and being the superior tactician AND being VERY familiar with the senate chambers, plus using offensive force abilities as opposed to Yoda who wasn't using any aside from the force push, yes I think it is a possibility.
ok so let me get this straight, Yoda and Sidious were fighting on top of the podium then Yoda ended up at the bottom and Sidious ended up at the top without a saber?
No. When the fight returned, we see that Yoda was just jumping from the Chancellor's podium, his lightsaber still ignited, and Sidious was already in full pod mode.
According to you, Yoda disarmed Sidious. Now, I would like to remind you that Yoda and Sidious are extremely near to one another when they were on that podium. Also, according to you, Sidious - despite being inferior and now unarmed - was able to evade Yoda, at point blank range and put that much distance between himself and Yoda, all due to superior tactics?
Sidious is the smarter fighter. Yes. But nothing is to indicate that he is the superior tactition, given that Yoda was the most skilled tactition of the Jedi during the Clone Wars.
So, according to you, Sidious managed to do all of that through superior tactics...
Not likely.
The idea that Sidious simply managed to use the Force or his saber to pre-occupy Yoda, and then put distance in between them, to simply try to defeat Yoda via long distance assaults, is more logical. It also goes along with Sidious's goals quite nicely. If he and Yoda are simply not getting anywhere with the sabers - why not switch to long distance assaults? Especially when Sidious's ultimate goal is not to kill Yoda per say, but simply live.
I would still say Sidious is inferior to Yoda in the force by ROTS but by only a hair(like Yoda and Mace), and being the superior tactician AND being VERY familiar with the senate chambers, plus using offensive force abilities as opposed to Yoda who wasn't using any aside from the force push, yes I think it is a possibility.
a. Glad to see you've recognized that they are that close in power.
b. He's not the superior tactition. Given that, during the days of the Empire, he relied on people such as Thrawn and Vader to lead and organize his military campaigns, it is unlikely that he was anything but an average tactition. He's a supreme manipulator and politician, but that's it as far as tactics.
c. As I recall, Yoda and Mace were present during a few Senate hearings. They were in AotC. They were also known to meet with Palpatine often. Lastly, the Senate Rotunda is a pretty easy room to get the concept of. Nothing really out of the ordinary. Furthermore, how would that be of any help in that situation?
d. Yoda can't use offensive Force powers. Sidious is the only one in the fight who is capable of using them. You make it sound as if though Yoda could, but chose not too.
Originally posted by Darth Scythe
Kenobi wasn't as weak as everyone thinks. Remember he did let Vader VOLUNTARILY beat him on the Death Star. At his age he could have but up a very good fight. Enough to distract Palps while Yoda throws a well aimed flying saber.
No, he did not. The novel stated that both of them were equals. The fight could have gone on longer, but Obi-Wan sacrificed himself to save Luke.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, my point is Yoda COULDNT use offensive powers, so him disarming Sidious, and then Sidious holding him off with the force is VERY Logical. I don't see how it isn't?
Because you're the one who said that Yoda beat Sidious at every juncture. For Sidious to be able to hold Yoda off with the Force would mean that Sidious is capable of stalemating and/or beating Yoda in certain Force attacks without a terrain advantage, which defies your entire argument.
Originally posted by Escape81
Because you're the one who said that Yoda beat Sidious at every juncture. For Sidious to be able to hold Yoda off with the Force would mean that Sidious is capable of stalemating and/or beating Yoda in certain Force attacks without a terrain advantage, which defies your entire argument.
Oh really? So Yoda necessarily needs offensive force powers to beat Sidious? How about the fact that he can shoot lightning back at his opponent, like Mace did to disfigure Sidious? That's not an offensive force ability yet Mace was able to almost kill Sidious. Sidious being the smarter of the two fighters was capable of holding OFF Yoda to get to the higher ground, and yet they still stalemated. So how does this defy my entire logic exactly? Sidious IS capable of holding off Yoda with certain force attacks WITH a terrain advantage, not without.
Damn it, DS. I'm tired of arguing with you anymore, because you will not read. You will not comprehend my statements. I'm not the only one who has noticed your sudden lack of ability. I'm serious. Don't debate with me at all, unless you're going to pay attention. Because between your statements last night and this crap that you are constantly spewing here recently, nothing adds up.
Read what I say before you try to argue with me, because when you don't, it makes you look stupid.
Oh really? So Yoda necessarily needs offensive force powers to beat Sidious?
Dude, when did I say that Yoda required offensive Force powers to defeat Sidious?
How about the fact that he can shoot lightning back at his opponent, like Mace did to disfigure Sidious? That's not an offensive force ability yet Mace was able to almost kill Sidious.
I said that Yoda isn't capable of generating offensive Force abilities. Not that he required them. How does this apply, at all? Pay attention.
Sidious being the smarter of the two fighters was capable of holding OFF Yoda to get to the higher ground, and yet they still stalemated.
You still haven't been able to explain how Sidious was able to evade Yoda, unarmed, in the first place.
Fact: We know that, according to that script, Sidious was disarmed on the Chancellor's podium, meaning that he and Yoda were only a few feet away from each other.
Fact: According to you, Yoda is superior to Sidious in lightsaber ability and in Force ability.
So. Knowing those two things, how could Sidious have evaded Yoda - the most powerful Jedi ever - unarmed, if he is absolutely inferior to Yoda? And then, to top it all off, put that much distance between them?
Because Sidious is smarter? Sidious is a manipulator who used Yoda as a pawn. But how the hell is that going to give him an undeniable, solid advantage that negates Yoda's own advantages of supposed superior ability? Especially when they both knew the Senate Rotunda well? Especially when Sidious is inferior and unarmed, and less than three feet away from Yoda?
Sorry. It makes more sense that Sidious is Yoda's equal, and was capable of simply holding him at bay long enough for him to escape, and opt for a long-range assault, to try to wear Yoda down.
So how does this defy my entire logic exactly? Sidious IS capable of holding off Yoda with certain force attacks WITH a terrain advantage, not without.
It defies your logic because, according to you, Yoda > Sidious in all things, and that they are only equal when Sidious has an environmental advantage. But that wouldn't be so if Sidious is able to evade Yoda, unarmed, at point blank range, and put that much distance between them.
It would mean that Sidious is (brace yourself) capable of stalemating and/or overpowering Yoda without an environmental advantage, just as Yoda is capable of doing the same.
Why do you think that this scene is not featured?
Originally posted by Mesirus
i'm guessing its a death of a sith here, but that just my easily swayed opinion
Maybe. Maybe not.
Individually, by the time of Return of the Jedi, Palpatine has surpassed both Yoda and Obi-Wan in individual power, due to his 20 years of studying the Force with the resources of the Empire at his command, as well as the knowledge from the Jedi Temple.
We also know that, according to Yoda, Obi-Wan could never defeat Palpatine on combat (RotS novelization). Considering how he's only equal to Vader as of A New Hope, I see Obi-Wan dying a quick, painful death.
Yoda, on the other hand, is still very powerful in the Force. But is slow, old, and frail, even by the time of Empire Strikes Back. Why I doubt it'll be easy, I see Palpatine solidly overcoming Yoda, too.
But who knows?
Either way, Obi-Wan dies. Hard.