go 2 this beyonder respect thread and then ull see
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f95/t412978.html
go 2 this beyonder respect thread and then ull see
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f95/t412978.html
Originally posted by manorastroman
the thing is, there IS no pre-retcon beyonder. the retcon was such that everything he did was mere illusion.so, phoenix 10/10.
The retcon was such, that they made him a Universe.
"that is why we have come to this UNIVERSE to find him"
"His power exploded into a New UNIVERSE"
"NOT JUST the sun, johnny. Beyonder is EVERYTHING in this UNIVERSE"
This is a battle between POST-Retcon Beyonder and Kubik.
Yes...this is the famous issue that RETCONNED Beyonder.
During this confrontation the Universe is POST-Retcon Beyonder.
Beyonder and Molecule join and become a Cosmic Containment Unit
Even after this, Shaper of Worlds clarifies it it for us.
POST-Retcon Beyonder was a Universe...
NOT as powerful as Eternity though
Later we learn that killing POST-Retcon Beyonder (who was then Kosmos) would collapse the Multi-verse.
"to rend the Life Force of such a being as the Beyonder"
"Havoc unthinkable would be wrecked across Multiversal Cosmography"
Thanos says his only recollection of the Beyonder or Kosmos is Unlimited power...he repeats this.
This is Thanos after having possessed a Cosmic Cube that made him a Universe...after having the Infinity Gauntlet that made him "God"...after having THOU...which absorbed Living Tribunal.
Years later:
Here Gladiator calls the Maker "the most powerful being in the known Universe"...
and refers to it as a god...but it decided to take on mortal form, which made it insane and vulnerable.
Beyonder was retconned, but then became more powerful as time passed on, as did the Owen Reece.
But with the retcon Beyonder became an essential force in the Multi-verse, so much so, that if he were to die, the Multi-verse would collapse.
Pre-retcon Beyonder - Post Retcon Beyonder - Kosmos - the Maker
Every version takes this.
well if we're going by beyonder at his best, and the whole of the phoenix force, then it's still phoenix 10/10.
i seem to remember beyonder (pre-retcon) attempting to absorb the phoenix from rachel and then saying something along the lines of "so much power! even i could not contain it!"
i'm sure GS has the scan.
bigbran, post-retcon beyonder would most certainly not defeat the entirety of the force. rachel alone has better showings against galactus than any cube being. and don't even start with the "around here", new guy.
Originally posted by manorastromanI think not. I seem to recall, that when post- retconned Beyonder, was fighting a guy, that was throwing universes at him.
well if we're going by beyonder at his best, and the whole of the phoenix force, then it's still phoenix 10/10.i seem to remember beyonder (pre-retcon) attempting to absorb the phoenix from rachel and then saying something along the lines of "so much power! even i could not contain it!"
i'm sure GS has the scan.
bigbran, post-retcon beyonder would most certainly not defeat the entirety of the force. rachel alone has better showings against galactus than any cube being. and don't even start with the "around here", new guy.
Originally posted by manorastromanlook at this thread, it shown pre ret beyonder taking the most powerful attack that phoenix could muster without even flinching http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f95/t412978.html
please, coherency is a very admirable feature.
the phoenix force is a very powerful entity in its own right, but its power exists only in a single universe.........beyonders power is millions of times greater then the mulitverse combined its all shown here http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f95/t412978.html
that was just rachel. the thread states the entirety of the force.
i'm waiting for GS to direct me to that scan. it does exist. pre-retcon beyonder is stating that phoenix force has too much power.
and how can the phoenix power only exist in this universe when jean has HELD this universe in her hands? not to mention all the AU phoenix appearances.
goon.
Originally posted by manorastromancough. your waiting for gs to do this? just so you know, beyonder gave phoenix enough power to kill him. beyonder could do anything, and he would easily dispatch the whole force.
that was just rachel. the thread states the entirety of the force.i'm waiting for GS to direct me to that scan. it does exist. pre-retcon beyonder is stating that phoenix force has too much power.
and how can the phoenix power only exist in this universe when jean has HELD this universe in her hands? not to mention all the AU phoenix appearances.
goon.
Originally posted by bigbranagreed, the only way pre ret beyonder could be beaten is if he wanted to.........he is as powerful as he chooses to be
cough. your waiting for gs to do this? just so you know, beyonder gave phoenix enough power to kill him. beyonder could do anything, and he would easily dispatch the whole force.
Originally posted by manorastroman
well if we're going by beyonder at his best, and the whole of the phoenix force, then it's still phoenix 10/10.
Pre-Retcon Beyonder erases the PF from existence 99/10.
Originally posted by manorastroman
i seem to remember beyonder (pre-retcon) attempting to absorb the phoenix from rachel and then saying something along the lines of "so much power! even i could not contain it!"
hysterical2
Originally posted by manorastroman
i'm sure GS has the scan.
Don't worry I have the scan, and the extra scans that explain that story.
Originally posted by manorastroman
i seem to remember beyonder (pre-retcon) attempting to absorb the phoenix from rachel and then saying something along the lines of "so much power! even i could not contain it!"
To begin with,
It is Beyonder that gives Rachel Summers that power that is BEYOND the Phoenix Force.
Beyonder gives Rachel enough power to kill him
"I offer you a choice, Phoenix...you may SLAY me"
"I herewith grant YOU SUFFICIENT Power to do so"
Rachel knows this...and plans on using it against Beyonder.
Beyonder gave Phoenix the power of the Force, and beyond.
"She has become ALL she EVER dreamed of...and FAR, FAR more.
"When my mom came to this place to SAVE the universe"
"It's only fair you be with me...when I DESTROY it"
Rachel blows JAHF (protector of the Crystal) out the way like if he wasn't even there.
Rachel was about to Unleash the Neutron Galaxy by shattering it's protective Energy Sphere
This Energy Sphere holds back the Neutron Galaxy from collapsing the Universe and eventually the Multiverse.
Rachel was going to crack it open...with the power Beyonder gave her, that turned her into Phoenix (exactly like Jean Grey according to the Watcher) and MORE.
This is why she didn't do it, she connected with every being in the Universe, and saw how meaningful and precious every individual life is.
Continues in the next post...
Rachel with the help of X-Men understands, she shouldn't destroy the Universe.
While Rachel still has a portion of Beyonder's power, he says:
"Except PERHAPS Phoenix, you are less to me than the Amoeba is to you"
Beyonder's goal was to make Humanity one with the Universe
This is funny,
even with the Power Beyonder gave her, which made her the Phoenix Force and Beyond,
"you are what you are solely because I will it"
"therefore, I require the return of what is rightfully mine, in full"
That's the Beyonder talking about the Power he gave Rachel.
This is the scan you were talking about:
"All that Phoenix experienced..the totality of Life, in ALL it's forms...is now his"
This has nothing to do with her power,
but with how precious even one life is,
Beyonder was overwhelmed by the beauty of life,
even ones that are like less than an Amoeba to him.
Which is why Storm say's:
"We each have our little lives, our destinies, our unique paths to walk"
"I find myself, envying your Humanity...your race is trully blessed"
Beyonder vs Phoenix
Beyonder: "I begin...but have no ending"
Phoenix comes in for the Attack
Rachel Summers uses ALL the power she can muster as Phoenix.
Beyonder didn't even flinch.
Beyonder withstands another Full frontal assault.
Beyonder: "does that outburst make you feel better"...lol
Then Beyonder decides to become Death for a while, and takes Phoenix on a trip through Time and Space to teach her a lesson.
Here is the ultimate ABC test.
Phoenix fought and beat Galactus.
Galactus tried to pierce Beyonder's shield, and was knocked out cold for hours for his troubles.
Beyonder made humble even LT. and to all you nuts that say, omg. retcon. You have to realize that PreRetcon beyonder is how he was MEANT to be. check the writers. its what was the originally story. But other writers that came later didn't like it, and CHANGED the story. Thats why its pre-retcon, and post retcon...
kinda like how we have pre infinite crisis superman.... and post...
because pre ic superman... he was basically god in a cape...
Originally posted by manorastromanbigbran, post-retcon beyonder would most certainly not defeat the entirety of the force. rachel alone has better showings against galactus than any cube being. and don't even start with the "around here", new guy.
Rachel was also controlled easily by Mordred to help him free Chthon, the elder god of earth. Quasar came along and held his own against Rachel and Mordred. I'll have scans of this up tomorrow. And thnx to Validus heads up on this.
PR Beyonder takes this easily 10/10. Mr. Master has brought up enough scans to back up Beyonder's omnipotence. PF is all hype backed up by assumptions.
Originally posted by rotiart
Here is the ultimate ABC test.Phoenix fought and beat Galactus.
Galactus tried to pierce Beyonder's shield, and was knocked out cold for hours for his troubles.Beyonder made humble even LT. and to all you nuts that say, omg. retcon. You have to realize that PreRetcon beyonder is how he was MEANT to be. check the writers. its what was the originally story. But other writers that came later didn't like it, and CHANGED the story. Thats why its pre-retcon, and post retcon...
kinda like how we have pre infinite crisis superman.... and post...
because pre ic superman... he was basically god in a cape...
😎
does nobody understand the concept of a retcon? look. in continuity, it was revealed that beyonder's feats were illusion, which means that everything in secret wars never really happened. it doesn't matter how the writers intended it, and we'll never know anyway. what matters is that beyonder NEVER did anything it appeared he did "pre-retcon". you following me? i'm putting stress on the word never for a reason.
that is the scan i was looking for, mr. master...and it brings up a very interesting point. how could the "omniscient", "omnipotent" beyonder learn anything?
moreover, there's still the issue of that being rachel grey rather than the totality of the force.
