Originally posted by Mr Master
[BAccording to Watcher Rachel was the Phoenix Force NOT some avatar.
Beyonder gave Phoenix the power of the Force, and beyond.
"She has become ALL she EVER dreamed of...and FAR, FAR more. [/B]
Absolute rubbish! Can you please quote the bit where Watcher said Rachel was the Phoenix Force? 😕
It says the Phoenix rises again, and what is Rachel? A Phoenix.
Please also bear in mind that the Phoenix Force placed restrictions on Rachels power meaning that she could only access it in limited amounts just to boost her own tp/tk talents.
So:
Rachel saying she used all the power she could muster in that attack on Beyonder is meaningless in terms of how the Phoenix Force/Jean Grey stacks up to him.
The Beyonder boosting her powers to previously unheard of levels similarly says nothing about how he stacks up against the Force/Jean Grey.
The fact of the matter is that in terms of on panel feats Jean Grey outclasses the Beyonder conclusively. Thats all that has to be said on the matter.
Originally posted by GalacticStormWhat the hell are you talking about?
Absolute rubbish! Can you please quote the bit where Watcher said Rachel was the Phoenix Force? 😕It says the Phoenix rises again, and what is Rachel? A Phoenix.
Please also bear in mind that the Phoenix Force placed restrictions on Rachels power meaning that she could only access it in limited amounts just to boost her own tp/tk talents.
So:
Rachel saying she used all the power she could muster in that attack on Beyonder is meaningless in terms of how the Phoenix Force/Jean Grey stacks up to him.
The Beyonder boosting her powers to previously unheard of levels similarly says nothing about how he stacks up against the Force/Jean Grey.
The fact of the matter is that in terms of on panel feats Jean Grey outclasses the Beyonder conclusively. Thats all that has to be said on the matter.
Originally posted by bigbran
What the hell are you talking about?
Beyonder beat her each and every time.
And unless phoenix is over every abstract, she loses...
Badly!!!
Can't belive I really looked up to this guy before I joined the forum.
Originally posted by Mr Master
The retcon was such, that they made him a Universe."that is why we have come to this UNIVERSE to find him"
"His power exploded into a New UNIVERSE""NOT JUST the sun, johnny. Beyonder is EVERYTHING in this UNIVERSE"
This is a battle between POST-Retcon Beyonder and Kubik.
Yes...this is the famous issue that RETCONNED Beyonder.
During this confrontation the Universe is POST-Retcon Beyonder.
Beyonder and Molecule join and become a Cosmic Containment Unit
Even after this, Shaper of Worlds clarifies it it for us.
POST-Retcon Beyonder was a Universe...
NOT as powerful as Eternity thoughLater we learn that killing POST-Retcon Beyonder (who was then Kosmos) would collapse the Multi-verse.
"to rend the Life Force of such a being as the Beyonder"
"Havoc unthinkable would be wrecked across Multiversal Cosmography"Thanos says his only recollection of the Beyonder or Kosmos is Unlimited power...he repeats this.
This is Thanos after having possessed a Cosmic Cube that made him a Universe...after having the Infinity Gauntlet that made him "God"...after having THOU...which absorbed Living Tribunal.Years later:
Here Gladiator calls the Maker "the most powerful being in the known Universe"...
and refers to it as a god...but it decided to take on mortal form, which made it insane and vulnerable.Beyonder was retconned, but then became more powerful as time passed on, as did the Owen Reece.
But with the retcon Beyonder became an essential force in the Multi-verse, so much so, that if he were to die, the Multi-verse would collapse.
Pre-retcon Beyonder - Post Retcon Beyonder - Kosmos - the Maker
Every version takes this.
all good but...... there were other scans (that i posted)
Which showed that even beyonder , and MM post rect....... were no match for even Celestials
THe cubes might ahve potentials......... to be greater etc........ but it's lit's like Nate , Cable and all that bow wow
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Can you please quote the bit where Watcher said Rachel was the Phoenix Force?
It says the Phoenix rises again, and what is Rachel? A Phoenix.
It says more than that.
"as JEAN GREY once faced this trial"
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Please also bear in mind that the Phoenix Force placed restrictions on Rachels power meaning that she could only access it in limited amounts just to boost her own tp/tk talents.
Oh, we know that.
But you must of missed the part when Beyonder GAVE her the Power.
"I offer you a choice, Phoenix...you may SLAY me"
"I herewith grant YOU SUFFICIENT Power to do so"
And she knew damn well she had this power.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Rachel saying she used all the power she could muster in that attack on Beyonder is meaningless in terms of how the Phoenix Force/Jean Grey stacks up to him.
I agree with this.
When Rachel attacked Beyonder she was at Phoenix Avatar level.
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Beyonder boosting her powers to previously unheard of levels similarly says nothing about how he stacks up against the Force/Jean Grey.
Sorry buddy, but it does.
Beyonder gave Rachel the power of the Phoenix Force and beyond.
Rachel was planning to burst the Energy Sphere that contains the Neutron galaxy inside the Mkraan Crystal, in order to destroy the Universe, and she thought hopefully the Beyonder along with it.
This is interesting, she uses the X-Men's souls as anchors just like Jean Grey did when she repaired and tried to repair the Mkraan Crystal...
"I need your strength..your Life Force...your Spirits to sustain me"
This is when Jean Grey tried to repair the Crystal before, she needs the Life Force of X-Men as-well...
hmm...is this ALL coincidence?
Rachel also takes the Life Force of X-Men that are sleeping.
Storm finds a problem with Rachel's plan.
"like MOTHER like daughter, eh Phoenix"...Rachel takes her Life Force anyway.
Rachel becomes the actual Phoenix Force
"the Primal Absolutes...CREATION and DESTRUCTION...are hers to command"
hmm...Sounds like the Phoenix Force's role in the Cosmic scheme.
Storm is trying to talk Rachel out of doing this
"You helped my MOM Storm...You GAVE freely of yourself THEn, why not now"
That was the incident Rachel was talking about.
Originally posted by kgkg
Which showed that even beyonder , and MM post rect....... were no match for even Celestials
Owen Reece in NOT a Cosmic Cube anymore.
His power has reached a potential that seems to rival Pre-retcon Molecule Man.
Owen Reece has TWO personalities, a passive limited side that makes him:
"One of the MOST Powerful beings in the Universe"
Owen Reece's OTHER side is the unlimited potential personified that he has.
This other side is called Molecule Man...and this is what that looks like.
Owen Reece (POST-Molecule Man)...becomes Evil Molecule Man
When insane/evil Molecule Man manifested out of Owen Reece, he went out to find POST-Retcon Beyonder to kill him out of revenge.
Insane/evil Molecule Man is something like Pre-retcon Molecule Man,
Multi-versal for sure...
since his separation from the Cosmic Cube, his power has reached levels that are unimaginable to Cosmic Cubes.
Post-retcon Molecule Man is a MONSTER!
Molecule Man actually extracts the essence of the Beyonder that's within Kosmos from Earth.
"power unimaginable...it's reaching through time and space"
"ripping the essence of that being from me"
Continues...
"Who dares summon the Beyonder from Oblivion?
"I dare...behold me...and despair"
"a conflict spanning PLANES of existence"
"a battle in which the laws of physics are tortured beyond recognition and eventually shattered"
Molecule Man: "there are Infinities Beyond your limited perception"
"from the Quantum to the Trans-Multiversal, Reality trembles as the forces unleashed reverberate through out creation"
Realize how ALL Reality (in the Multi-verse) is being affected because of them, (both are POST-Retcon).
A WATCHER even goes blind in another Universe.
And the FlatLand Reality is completely Warped, from a Two Dimensional Universe to a Three Dimensional Universe.
Continues...
Now part of the retcon of the Beyonder, is that he was made an intrinsic part of the Multi-verse.
"to rend the Life Force of such a being as the Beyonder"
"Havoc unthinkable would be wrecked across Multiversal Cosmography"
At first, some of us thought this was nonsense since the Maker (current incarnation of the Beyonder) was seemingly dead during the Annihilation series.
I began to turn pages and found this out: The Maker is NOT dead at all...
This is how the Maker ended up "Dead"...
Beyonder, (Maker), still imposing limitations like in his PRE era, takes on Mortal Form.
"The Mind is Dead...Do NOT kill the body"...This is in order to keep the essence of the Beyonder in prisoned within the Maker.
Keep her body alive.
"a Living Prison"
"The ONLY prison capable of containing the Beyonder...it's essence"
"had we killed the Maker Form? The prisoner goes free"
"We would of ENABLED the thing we'd sought to prevent (the destruction of the Universe that is)
In this Thanos series, the Maker could have imploded the Universe on a whim if it had not gone mad.
Continues...
Thanos knew of the Maker's potential
Thanos says his only recollection of the Beyonder or Kosmos is Unlimited power...he repeats this.
This is Thanos after having possessed a Cosmic Cube that made him a Universe...after having the Infinity Gauntlet that made him "God"...after having THOU...which absorbed Living Tribunal.
The Maker was rendered unconcious because it took on mortal form and it was spiraling into madness.
They wanted to kill the Maker in it's vulnerable state...Gladiator asks, "Can you kill a god?"
Here Gladiator calls the Maker "the most powerful being in the known Universe"...
and again refers to it as a god...but it' decided to take on mortal form, which made it vulnerable.
Now back to Molecule Man...
Molecule Man's power, has FAR greater potential than any Cosmic Cube or even the Beyonder.
Kubik BEGS the Molecule Man not to kill the Beyonder, which would bring forth the END of Reality.
Finally Molecule Man is calmed down and Owen is able to take control again, he reverts back to passive, limited Owen Reece
"Ripping galaxies apart, bending the Laws of nature at Whim...That's easy stuff"
Hope that cleared that up
Originally posted by Mr MasterThank you, for the maker bit!
Continues...Thanos knew of the Maker's potential
Thanos says his only recollection of the Beyonder or Kosmos is Unlimited power...he repeats this.
This is Thanos after having possessed a Cosmic Cube that made him a Universe...after having the Infinity Gauntlet that made him "God"...after having THOU...which absorbed Living Tribunal.The Maker was rendered unconcious because it took on mortal form and it was spiraling into madness.
They wanted to kill the Maker in it's vulnerable state...Gladiator asks, "Can you kill a god?"Here Gladiator calls the Maker "the most powerful being in the known Universe"...
and again refers to it as a god...but it' decided to take on mortal form, which made it vulnerable.Now back to Molecule Man...
Molecule Man's power, has FAR greater potential than any Cosmic Cube or even the Beyonder.
Kubik BEGS the Molecule Man not to kill the Beyonder, which would bring forth the END of Reality.
Finally Molecule Man is calmed down and Owen is able to take control again, he reverts back to passive, limited Owen Reece
"Ripping galaxies apart, bending the Laws of nature at Whim...That's easy stuff"Hope that cleared that up
