I don't think Nihilis should be on the list. Firstly, he had basically no control over his actions and just drifted from force sensitive planet to force sensitive planet, like a mindless zombie. Secondly,what he did did not help the Sith accomplish anything, as he was not trying to conquer the galaxy, simply satisfy his lust for force sensitives. He wasn't even really allied with the Sith, he just liked eating planets for his own ends.
oh, and obi-wan should be on the jedi list. 4 or 5. 😄
I agree while Nihilus is one of the most powerful sith, he isn't that great of a sith at the same time.
Obiwan is an interesting character because while we know all the good he has done, he has be partially blamed for Vader and he did let Hett live who would become Darth Krayt. I tend to think the good out ways the bad though.
Originally posted by Elite Hunter
I agree while Nihilus is one of the most powerful sith, he isn't that great of a sith at the same time.Obiwan is an interesting character because while we know all the good he has done, he has be partially blamed for Vader and he did let Hett live who would become Darth Krayt. I tend to think the good out ways the bad though.
There is no such thing as a "great" sith except for maybe Revan and Caedus (who, when you think about it, was more of an anti-hero)
Actually he's the reason why Anakin didn't fall to the dark side EARLIER, so he actually delayed that, and while letting Hett live turned out to be bad, the action of letting him live was pretty noble.
Originally posted by Hewhoknowsall
There is no such thing as a "great" sith except for maybe Revan and Caedus (who, when you think about it, was more of an anti-hero)
We're talking about which sith have the greatest accomplishments....Like reestablishing the order,responsible for the deaths of a lot of jedi, conquering the galaxy, things of that nature.
Actually he's the reason why Anakin didn't fall to the dark side EARLIER, so he actually delayed that, and while letting Hett live turned out to be bad, the action of letting him live was pretty noble.
As far as Hett goes, yes it's noble and he couldn't forsee anything that Hett would do later on. It's just fun noting how he is somewhat responsible for the death of hundreds of jedi and the fall of the republic/galactic alliance. 😛
Originally posted by Obi7
Could Obi-wan see shatterpoints? If he could, could he not have seen how bad the consequences of letting Hett live could turn out to be, and could he not see that killing Hett to be the better choice?
Kenobi might not of killed him anyway.
(Going by achievements) SITH:
1. Sidious (Mastery of the force and destroyed the republic)
2. Bane (Orbalisk armor, godly dueling, destroyed the old and weak sith)
3. Nihilus (Sever and drain, he could solo anyone. Killed a planet)
4. Plagueis (Created Anakin? and planned the downfall of the republic)
5. Krayt (Founded and lead the One Sith, conquered the galaxy)
JEDI:
1. Yoda (Too much to list here)
2. Luke (Rebuilt Jedi order. DUH)
3. Mace (Shatterpoint and Vapaad, essentially killed Sidious)
4. Vodo-Siosk (Instructed Exar Kun)
5. Anakin (Brought balance to the Force, and if he hadn't turned to the dark side, he would be the most powerful jedi who ever lived.)
Originally posted by No.Almost fully responsible? By your line of reasoning, Karness Muur's mother is almost fully responsible for the downfall of the Jedi and the Republic because she sired the first of the Sith Lords.
Bane was almost fully responsible for the planning, preparation and long term execution of destroying the Jedi and conquering the Galaxy, and is fully credited with the achievement by the Force itself via prophecy.
Not that I believe that piece of information about Karness Muur's mother is actually true, we have this nice quote from Ro2:
"Her Master's power was still far greater than her own. She had the potential to surpass Bane-he had told her so himself-but right now he still possessed a strength she could only aspire to. There were secrets he had not yet shared with her, keys to unlocking even greater power than she now possessed. If he died, that knowledge was lost. It was possible she might one day succeed in discovering it on her own; with Bane as her Master, success was assured.
But what he still had to teach her went far beyond her ability to harness the energies of the dark side. For the past decade she had been focused only on learning to control her own power. Over that same time, her Master had begun to assemble the pieces that would one day allow the Sith to rise up and rule the galaxy.
He'd created a vast network of spies and informants, but Zannah had no idea as to its true extent, or even how to contact them. He had put into motion a hundred long-range plans to slowly build their strength while weakening the Republic. Yet she was only just now beginning to understand the scope and complexity of his political machinations.
Bane was a visionary, able to see far into the future. He understood how to exploit the weaknesses and vulnerabilities of the Republic. He knew how to draw the eyes of the Jedi away from the dark side, while at the same time leading them down the first steps of the long road that would end in their complete annihilation. He could manipulate people, organizations, and governments, planting seeds that would lay dormant for years-even decades-before they burst forth."
The difference between what I was stating and the comparison you put forth being that rather than simply creating the Order that would accomplish the mentioned goals, Bane personally -- as directly stated -- created the core components of those goals; his personal actions formed the very beginning of the long term goals in question, and it can be logically inferred that any such actions that his followers personally took were either through Bane's instructions or at the very least inspired by his teachings. And again, as said, the Force itself via dark side prophecy directly credits Bane with the achievement.
You don't believe Karness Muur had a mother?
Yes, he created that network. A key piece. That makes him a very important step in the process. Palpatine's actions were what mattered in the end. Final move, final machinations. Without Palpatine, the whole thing would have come to zilch. Bane was instrumental, monumentally. But he was not "almost fully responsible" for the Order's downfall. He was fully responsible for the network and the RoTs existence.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
You don't believe Karness Muur had a mother?
Spoiler:
Yes.
In all seriousness, I wasn't aware that Karness Muur had been the very original Sith Lord.
Yes, he created that network. A key piece. That makes him a very important step in the process.
Yes, which is why my statement was regarding the planning, preparation and long term execution of the goal. His personal actions formed the very core components of the entire plan, and the Sith Lords that followed would have all undoubtedly been instructed to act in a similar manner.
Also, he created the network of spies and informants and began the series of manipulations that were directly stated as "leading the [Jedi] down the first steps of the long road that would end in their complete annihilation.". Both actions are directly stated to have had the long term effect of the achievement in question, the former by providing Palpatine directly with the resources he would use directly to realise the Order's goal, and the latter by leading the Jedi into as vulnerable a state as required for Palpatine's final execution to be successful.
Palpatine's actions were what mattered in the end. Final move, final machinations. Without Palpatine, the whole thing would have come to zilch.
And at the same time Palpatine wouldn't have been honed into the person he became and wouldn't have had the tools that he had at his disposal without the teachings and wealth of the Sith Order. It's also entirely possible that somebody else could have filled Palpatine's role. And lastly, since when was final execution irrefutably more significant than planning and preparation? The Force itself would appear to disagree, crediting Bane as the Sith'ari and the one to make the Sith more powerful than they had ever been. It would appear that the only person truly indispensable was in fact Bane. His role in the achievement is ultimately credited as being the instrumental component by the Force itself.
Bane was instrumental, monumentally. But he was not "almost fully responsible" for the Order's downfall. He was fully responsible for the network and the RoTs existence.
Planning, preparation and long term execution....
Originally posted by No.Haha! Uhhh... No.
Sidious 66 didn't want to say this publicy but he just confirmed via PM that he agrees with every single thing I've said in this thread.
While Bane set the plan in motion, Sidious brought it to fruition. It was Sidious who worked right under the nose of the Jedi order, while manipulating them at the same time. It was Sidious who controled a galactic war from both sides like a "dejarik grandmaster." It was Sidious who knew the right moment to strike. It was Sidious who was "born with the power to bring the sith out of hiding."
And at the same time, The Force, a being with a far greater level of knowledge and understanding regarding the Star Wars Universe than either one of us, via the prophecy of the Sith'ari, credits Bane directly with the achievement. Not Palpatine. Nor Sidious. Bane.
Your and Tangible's argument appears ultimately reliant on the idea that final execution is unambiguously the most crucial component of any plan; not only does your assertion lack proof, but the ultimate source within Star Wars, an omnipresent, omniscient force of nature, completely disagrees.
Anyways, don't blame Palpatine for not being the Sith'ari, blame LFL for making Bane more important than he is. 😂
Even Lightsnake agrees.