Originally posted by galan7777777
geeze.........its not even worth dragging this on anymore, u cant provide proof that toaa can defeat beyonder, and i cant provide proof that beyonder can beat toaa.......when all is said and done, does it really friggin matter? its a comic book lol
I don't kwow what you don't understand, actully GS said it perfectly, Beyonder is of Marvel and his very existence is determined by the will of Marvels supreme being.
Originally posted by galan7777777
geeze.........its not even worth dragging this on anymore, u cant provide proof that toaa can defeat beyonder, and i cant provide proof that beyonder can beat toaa.......when all is said and done, does it really friggin matter? its a comic book lol
Should anyone have to prove that a supreme being is supreme? 😕
If the supreme being is responsible for the creation, not only of Beyonder, but of all other things in Marvel then wouldnt it be common sense that he could take out Beyonder given that he is supreme? 🙄
Originally posted by GalacticStormagain thats speculation and cant be used as proof
Should anyone have to prove that a supreme being is supreme? 😕If the supreme being is responsible for the creation, not only of Beyonder, but of all other things in Marvel then wouldnt it be common sense that he could take out Beyonder given that he is supreme? 🙄
Ok
I logged off, and gave this thought.
I'm retracting my earlier statement.
Pre-Retcon Beyonder was equal or greater, to the TOAA.
or it doesn't make sense.
Beyonder was EVERYTHING outside the Multi-verse.
At the same time,
Beyonder was Millions of times greater than that Multi-verse he was outside of.
What's left?
Nothing.
Unless TOAA is so cheesy as to create a Multi-verse (which was Marvel from May 84' to Nov 86'😉 and then Beyonder.
Thoughts?
Pre-Retcon Beyonder for the win, its just that one panel's narration about being billions or was it millions of times more powerful then all the multiverse combined, thats what convinces me he is above TOAA.
P.S. During the time Pre-Retcon Beyonder was made, the writtes at the time stated that the beyonder was the manifestation and representation of the writters of the comic/s, in that they were beyond anything in the comic and had absolute control of everything.
So going by that it really comes down to the writters who were writting at the time Vs. Stan Lee.
Originally posted by Jesse7
Pre-Retcon Beyonder for the win, its just that one panel's narration about being billions or was it millions of times more powerful then all the multiverse combined, thats what convinces me he is above TOAA.P.S. During the time Pre-Retcon Beyonder was made, the writtes at the time stated that the beyonder was the manifestation and representation of the writters in the comic, in that they were beyond anything in the comic and had absolute control of everything.
So going by that it really comes down to the writters who were writting at the time Vs. Stan Lee.
Well then, that sums it up.
😮💨
P.S.S. in addition to Mr. M's previous statement that the Beyonder would indeed be greater then TOAA due to the fact that TOAA is the marvel multiverse, but the beyonder was millions of times more powerful then all the marvel multiverse combined (stated on panel by narration so its not speculation or hyperbole), so going by that it leads me to believe that the beyonder was indeed more powerful then TOAA. Or if you want to see it another way or as I see it the writters of marvel from 84 to 86 had more influence on the marvel comics then Stan Lee did, so going by that they were more powerful then Stan Lee was (TOAA), so PR Beyonder > TOAA.
So going by that it really comes down to the writters who were writting at the time Vs. Stan Lee, which as I explained above they were more powerful (more influence as shown since they made the beyonder and set his level) then Stan Lee.
Well we are going by Pre-Retcon Beyonder, and I can argue that point of the retconning by this.
Post Retcon Beyonder (the writters) at the time was more powerful then TOAA (Stan Lee) because if he wasnt more powerful then he would not have been stated as being so by narration and panel and he wouldn't have been able to do all that he did.
Now to explain his retconning it can be seen like this, that over the years the writters influence on Marvel weakened (what actually happened is that he stopped working for marvel or was fired or retired, some thing along those lines) and thus the new writter went and retconned it, so in a way its sort of like the Post Retcon Beyonder left the marvel Multiverse (the writter left marvel) and all that was left was a empty shell of what he once was, so TOAA (or the new writter) came and manipulated that empty shell which was nothing compared to what he was before.
So in a way what Post Retcon beyonder is, is the original writters signature, and thus pre-retcon beyonder was indeed over all of TOAA and marvel (his influence on marvel proved this), he was only able to be defeated once he left Marvel (thus left the marvel multiverse), so of course his influence on the marvel multiverse is going to weaken since hes not there anymore.
I see post retcon beyonder as a avatar or a small fraction of Pre-Retcon Beyonder left behind.
IN the end, The freaking beyonder is still not more powerful than the presence as earlier stated. becuz no one in the damn marvel pantheon of writers can influence the DC staff to do thier bidding, or to change DC. PERIOD. The argument started becuz some idiot wanted to challenge the presence's might with that of the pre-retcon beyonder. HOW FOOLISH. Since DC has no editorial obligations to the beyonder or to marvel, then the beyonder would appear in the DCU and be totally under the control of the presence. WHo is the all watchful eye of the DC editorial staff and properties management. And the beyonder would never be let to defeat DC's Supreme being. There can only be one Supreme being. Every thing else is allowed to be becuz of the supreme's one will. The beyonder is nothing to the The one above all as he could decide to retcon the beyonder again, making it all the dream of a child in some comic, and He certainly is nothing to the presence, who probably watched the beyonder's antics on his big Television tube and said, wow, he reminds me of myxy. How cute.
The only flaw I find in your argument, is that we do not know if the presence is indeed the manifestations of the witters them selves, its never been stated or hinted at in any DC comic in the way it has been stated or hinted at in Marvel comics.
So it could be that the presence in DC isn't at the top of the food chain, that is why I say PR Beyonder is over the presence, because the presence has never been stated to be the writters.
Originally posted by Jesse7
The only flaw I find in your argument, is that we do not know if the presence is indeed the manifestations of the witters them selves, its never been stated or hinted at in any DC comic in the way it has been stated or hinted at in Marvel comics.So it could be that the presence in DC isn't at the top of the food chain, that is why I say PR Beyonder is over the presence, because the presence has never been stated to be the writters.
It doesn't have to be stated. The writers give the presence it's authority. By the editorial command of DC, No one has ever been shown to be above the presence. It's a flow of logic. The presence is above every thing that has been shown to be as powerful as the beyonder. It's above the Spectre. Above the Source. Even above the ALE, which is as powerful as trillions of universes. Darksied said that but the tiniest piece of it's power was like having Mr. Mxy's power. And The presence is above all of that. The presence is so powerful, that he has armies of spectres to do his bidding should he wish. The Beyonder won't ever even get to challenge the might of the presence. The presence would have just created a minion even more powerful than before. I combined the might of Kronos, The anti monitor, and Parralax into one and snuffed out the little verse that the beyond was. And he certainly isn't all the powerful. He got Retconned while the presence remains the same. Infalible and unchanging.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
The one above all as he could decide to retcon the beyonder again,
TOAA didn't retcon anyone.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
He certainly is nothing to the presence,
Beyonder was More powerful than the Presence or Equal to it.
Beyonder encompassed EVERYTHING Outside the Multi-verse (which was ALL of Marvel at the time)
AND, at the same time, Beyonder was Millions of times more powerful than the Multi-verse he was Outside of.
What's left?
Nothing.
So being the Supreme being of Marvel,
Beyonder was equal to the Presence.