Beyonder vs The Presence, Yahweh, TOAA.

I don't think the Beyonder would necessarily be more powerful than the TOAA, even though Beyonder is millions of times more than the multi-verse. Sure, Beyonder may oversee or occupy more territory than TOAA....but, how does that make him stronger?. I kind of look at it like European nobility. Beyonder may be a Duke, owning vast property. TOAA, compared to Beyonder, may just be a lowly viscount....the lowest rank of hereditary nobility. Sure, the Duke may own more property, control a larger army, and have more political influence....but, that is the end of the differences between the two. Physically, they both may be equals.

The U.S. President has more influence than the leader of the Sudan. The president may not have as much individual power as the Sudanese president...but, the U.S. president's decisions and influence are well above the Sudanese leader's.

I guess what I'm trying to say with those examples...lol..is that they would both probably stalemate in a physical fight. Beyonder may own more territory..and have more omniversal influence...but, it doesn't mean he would be physically superior to the TOAA.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Even above the ALE, which is as powerful as trillions of universes. Darksied said that but the tiniest piece of it's power was like having Mr. Mxy's power.

"trillions of universes" huh...

"the tiniest piece of it's power was like having Mr. Mxy's power"

Really?

This is the Anti-Life Equation in it's most powerful form.

Dr Fate, Highfather, Orion, Darkseid and Etrigen trapped it, in it's own Dimension for EVER.

"The threat of the ALE is forever ended"....."how"

the bridging Dimension between our Reality and it's has been eradicated"

So much for "trillions of universes"

Originally posted by charlemagne9746
I don't think the Beyonder would necessarily be more powerful than the TOAA, even though Beyonder is millions of times more than the multi-verse.

I guess what I'm trying to say with those examples...lol..is that they would both probably stalemate in a physical fight. Beyonder may own more territory..and have more omniversal influence...but, it doesn't mean he would be physically superior to the TOAA.

TOAA created the Multi-verse.

Beyonder is millions of times more powerful than that Multi-verse.

And Beyonder is the SUM of EVERYTHING OUTSIDE that Multi-verse.

Thoughts?

The Beyonder during that time (Circa 84-86) was basically a card used by Marvel to portray in a grand manner what was at stake during the secret wars. I do believe however that the Beyonder was a manifestation of TOAA in graphic form...

I say TOAA is JAck Kirby and stan lee, since they were literaly drawn into the comic during that one FF arc/comic/s.

Secondly I think the key words as to why the Beyonder is greater then the presence is this

"And Beyonder is the SUM of EVERYTHING OUTSIDE that Multi-verse"

Not only is the Beyonder millions of times more powerful then all the marvel multiverse combined, but he is also the SUM of everything outside of Marvel, and whats outside of a comic? The world we are in right now, thus he is indeed greater then the presence, because I have never seen in any DC comic that the presence is a actual writter who is putting himself into the comic.

You can assume and speculate all you want but theirs no proof, unlike with the beyond their is proof, panel narration, and actual statements from the writter of Secret wars and the creator of the Beyonder "Jim Shooter."

Originally posted by RUNMAN
The Beyonder during that time (Circa 84-86) was basically a card used by Marvel to portray in a grand manner what was at stake during the secret wars. I do believe however that the Beyonder was a manifestation of TOAA in graphic form...

Possibly...

Originally posted by Jesse7
I say TOAA is JAck Kirby and stan lee, since they were literaly drawn into the comic during that one FF arc/comic/s.

Secondly I think the key words as to why the Beyonder is greater then the presence is this

"And Beyonder is the SUM of EVERYTHING OUTSIDE that Multi-verse"

Not only is the Beyonder millions of times more powerful then all the marvel multiverse combined, but he is also the SUM of everything outside of Marvel, and whats outside of a comic? The world we are in right now, thus he is indeed greater then the presence, because I have never seen in any DC comic that the presence is a actual writter who is putting himself into the comic.

You can assume and speculate all you want but theirs no proof, unlike with the beyond their is proof, panel narration, and actual statements from the writter of Secret wars and the creator of the Beyonder "Jim Shooter."

Ur logic is still silly. He was stated as being the sum of everything outside of the multi verse by whom? On whose authority does he get this power? now does this authority thatgave him his power, have any power WHAT SO EVER over the presence? NOT! You have used up ur third life line.

Originally posted by Jesse7
I say TOAA is JAck Kirby and stan lee, since they were literaly drawn into the comic during that one FF arc/comic/s.

"God" is without doubt the Artist, Jack Kirby the premiere Artist of Marvel, and it resembles him too.

He get's a phone call, they give him ideas..then "God" (the Artist) says, "I'll draw up some paper and ink and get right to it."..something to that effect.

That heavily suggest a Writer was on the phone.

Stan Lee was the premiere Writer of Marvel and he created the FF no less where the whole event took place.

Originally posted by Jesse7
Not only is the Beyonder millions of times more powerful then all the marvel multiverse combined, but he is also the SUM of everything outside of Marvel, and whats outside of a comic? The world we are in right now, thus he is indeed greater then the presence, because I have never seen in any DC comic that the presence is a actual writter who is putting himself into the comic.

😮‍💨

"Sum of everything outside TOAA's multiverse"....now, what does that really mean? I think it was mentioned before that the Beyonder can enter a new reality..and displace that reality's Supreme Being. Well, over countless eons in the past.....Beyonder, at one time, was not the Sum of Everything outside TOAA's multiverse. He had to gain that position. "Sum of Everything" would also imply that Beyonder was already in control of the DC universe as well.....since, TOAA's multiverse, it seems, is all that is left.

In eons past, Beyonder and TOAA may have been pretty much identical in terms of power held.....and influence. Beyonder just overstepped his bounds and became an omniversal conqueror.

That is my argument....Beyonder may not be any more powerful than the TOAA....we may never know. If Beyonder displaced other Supreme Beings, then..apparently he was more powerful than they. However, that doesn't mean Beyonder is more powerful than the TOAA....again, Beyonder just owns more property...lol.

The Roman Empire forged one of the largest empires in history. Yet, their empire crumbled....and barbarians invaded and occupied the western parts of the empire. Sure, Rome was not as powerful as she once was at that time......but, Rome still had most of it's influence...and all of its territory....yet smaller tribes like the Huns put Rome on her knees.

Power and influence do not necessarily mean everything. As powerful as you are....there is always a superior or equal...at least I find that to be the case in comic books. It's just my opinion that Beyonder and TOAA would stalemate if anything. lol...then again...maybe not...omnipotence has degrees in Marvel comics.....how silly is that?....so, Beyonder may well be more powerful.....theoretically...that makes no sense.....i have to look at things naturally....in this forum at least....omnipotence = omnipotence....stalemate.

Concerning the earlier argument about the Beyonder being a writer...or something along those lines...well, the TOAA is supposed to be also. Remember...some force was powerful enough to ret-con the Beyonder....ret-con = defeat..lol....could it have been TOAA(ret-con decision maker(s) at Marvel. In this sense, TOAA>>>>Beyonder

THe Editorial staffs at both companies are infinitely more powerful than the writers. The Editor in chief of both companies run the show. No writer can ever match that power. In the end, if the beyonder was a writer, he was a small thing compared to the larger frame work of marvel. Stand lee is still at marvel. Rich as hell and doing absolutely nothing for it. Where is this writer who lost control of his own creation, the beyonder?

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Ur logic is still silly. He was stated as being the sum of everything outside of the multi verse by whom?

Molecule Man (the second most powerful being in the Multi-verse at the time.
"here we are, OUTSIDE Earth's Universe and ALL the INFINITE Adjacent Dimensions which make up the Multiverse...BEYOND ALL KNOWN Existence"

"In other words, the Beyond Realm"

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
On whose authority does he get this power?

No one gave him his power, he always was.

Even Bacteria bows down to the Beyonder.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Molecule Man (the second most powerful being in the Multi-verse at the time.
"here we are, OUTSIDE Earth's Universe and ALL the INFINITE Adjacent Dimensions which make up the Multiverse...BEYOND ALL KNOWN Existence"

"In other words, the Beyond Realm"

No one gave him his power, he always was.

Even Bacteria bows down to the Beyonder.

it's still on a DAMN marvel comic PAGE. there for this beyond space is still in the wrealm of THE MU. It can be implied all day that the beyonder is beyond DC. But it can never be so until he shows up on panel on DC paper and kicks some ass. He gets his power from the one who created him. the writer. Period. This argument has been one. on both counts. THe beyonder is no more powerful than mxy. He certainly isn't messing with DC's presence. The presence hasn't even been retconned. The beyonder isnt' infallible. He got the air let out of his balloon by a truly higher power. The editorial staff.

All these are just circular arguments however...lol. You can basically prove whatever theory you want to prove when you say the Beyonder or TOAA is part of the writing staff. With this theory I can say that Pre-Retcon Marvel Brother is more powerful than the Beyonder. The Brother is the embodiment of Marvel Comics itself. Without Marvel, the company, no one would have a job...no writers, no editors, no body. In that sense, the Marvel Brother would be greater than any being in Marvel. Then you can say that the Beyonder is the sum of everthing outside TOAA's multiverse.....that is beyond the scope of the Marvel Brother....so, in this sense..it can be said that the Beyonder is more powerful. If the TOAA is the editor(s) in chief...then they can retcon Beyonder....making TOAA above the Beyonder. But, if the Beyonder is the sum of everything outside TOAA's multiverse....then Beyonder is more powerful.......you see how circular these arguments are. I don't think you can argue one above the other. Ret conning Beyonder and the Marvel Brother was the best possible solution to clear up the Marvel heirarchy

Stan Lee (TOAA) fires the writer(Beyonder). TOAA wins.

Except the brother argument wouldnt work, because it was later explained that they were not all powerful, but rather they were forever fighting and their rank is shown when LT holds each on a different hand and orders them to each watch over a seperate univere, point being they are below LT, and LT is below the Beyonder.

This is Pre-Retconned Beyonder, their is no marvel comic character beyond the beyonder.

Originally posted by Jesse7
Except the brother argument wouldnt work, because they were retconned and LT was seeing holding each on in a different hand.

This is Pre-Retconned Beyonder, their is no marvel comic character beyond the beyonder.

Well even if we accept pre retconned brother, it wouldnt really matter, I edited my previous post to explain why.

They weren't exactly retconned, it was more of that it was never cannon because both DC and marvel didnt agree on it and both had different views on it, for some thing to be cannon in a cross over both companies have to include it in their comic contiuity and acknowledge that it happened equaly on both sides, which is not the case here.

Originally posted by Jesse7
Well even if we accept pre retconned brother, it wouldnt really matter, I edited my previous post to explain why.

They weren't exactly retconned, it was more of that it was never cannon because both DC and marvel didnt agree on it and both had different views on it, for some thing to be cannon in a cross over both companies have to include it in their comic contiuity and acknowledge that it happened equaly on both sides, which is not the case here.

well, beyonder was retconned to be less powerful also....that's why I used the Marvel Brother. Beyonder may be ouside the realm of the Marvel multiverse...but he originated in Marvel Comics...and the Brother is the Sum of Marvel Comics....so, in that sense....the Brother is above the Beyonder.

I realize all of this is theory and just speculation on my part. In the actual comic book....if you just take it and nothing else...then, yes....it would appear that the Beyonder is the most powerful. However, the writers have given clues as to the identities of the TOAA/God....which leaves the readers free to speculate. Using logic..outside of the comic book....then the Beyonder can not be more powerful. Beyonder is only more powerful from a comic book only point of view. Anyway, this forum does away with the PIS or CIS of the comic books....and the forum allows for more speculation...lol...so, these theories can be relevant here.

Originally posted by darthgoober
You don't realize that you just killed your argument. Because if DC didn't acnowledge the Beyonder's power it's not cannon.

I didn't kill my argument in anyway, The beyonder was acknowledge by Marvel thats all that matters here, why? Because the Beyonder was never in a cross over and never had anything to do with DC.

Why does DC's word matter for the brothers? Because the brothers was a cross over with DC and since it was a cross over both companies need to agree as I explained earlier.