Well, I had problems w/ self-injury b/c I thought I wasn't good enough 4 God 2 love me. When ever I did something wrong I'd hurt myself and feel like I wasn't worthy 2 B alive. But when I learned that Jesus didn't expect us to be good enough 4 heaven, he'd suffered already 4 all we did wrong and wanted 2 4 give us, my life was changed. I don't have that problem anymore b/c I kno I am 4given. Jesus helps me resist temptation when I have urges to go back 2 it too! He knows everything about us and STILL loves us! That's incredible! He also gave me hope of heaven, so I don't have 2 B afraid of dying.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
All positive things were brought about by myself, the people around me, and the situations of my life, and then how I let those things affect me. For a time I simply attributed these things to the Christian God, not realizing that I was in control of my demeanor and fate.
And yet you're a firm believer in determinism . . . you can never be in control of your fate.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
And yet you're a firm believer in determinism . . . you can never be in control of your fate.
On the contrary, determinism means that I am always in control of it, because it is everything that makes me who I am that contributes to the decisions. the fact that the decisions couldn't be any other way than what they are, doesn't mean I'm not the one controlling it. My control is determined, sure, but it's still my own.
Determinism, imo, is the only way to have anything like free will, because the amorphic "it could be more than 1 way" free will of most religions involves some element of uncontrollable randomness that is outside a human being. If they alone controlled their decisions, there could only be one outcome. The fact that it "could" be more than 1 outcome (which is logically impossible in the first place) means something is happening that transcends the person altogether, and therefore actually strips them of control.
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A lot of people (not saying Sym is, because he doesn't seem to be) associate determinism with fatalism. Everything is determined, so what does any perceived choice matter? I could never understand such sentiments. Objective facts don't inherently carry with them subjective value judgements, unless we allow them to by letting it affect us as such.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
On the contrary, determinism means that I am always in control of it, because it is everything that makes me who I am that contributes to the decisions. the fact that the decisions couldn't be any other way than what they are, doesn't mean I'm not the one controlling it. My control is determined, sure, but it's still my own.
That's pretty weak reasoning. If you're "picking" the only possible option you're not actually picking anything, you're just a puppet on strings.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
That's pretty weak reasoning. If you're "picking" the only possible option you're not actually picking anything, you're just a puppet on strings.
View it as such if you must. Again, it's assigning a value judgement (in this case negative) to causality, which is neutral in terms of intrinsic value. It can be viewed as negative, or it can be viewed as something that promotes tolerance, acceptance, and love of all existence, because there is no way it could be any differently and each thing is a result of the causes that preceded it. Any situation, any act, is perfectly inevitable, and so it allows for universal acceptance of life. And determinism doesn't take away the joy of experiencing life, nor the exciting unpredictability of the choices we make (which indeed would be predictable in theory, but we haven't the knowledge to do so).
Free will, then, is when we aren't impeded in our desires. If I want to go to the store, but am forced to stay at home by a robber who keeps me at gunpoint, my free will (the choice, desire, that I wish to make) is being taken from me. Without any restrictions on such things, we are free in a determined system.
A term I'm fond of is "no-fault determinism." In it, no one is "at fault" for their bad/illegal/etc. decisions, because in a deterministic system it could be no other way. An act may be unfortunate, but is perfectly logical given the preceding causes of it. Such systems still advocate prisons, the law, etc. but for the protection of other human beings, not as punishment for the criminal, which would imply wrongdoing. As uncharacteristic for many of us as it is, it promotes an understanding and acceptance of any act, while still taking steps to ensure that others aren't robbed of their freedom, as defined above.
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Puppet implies a puppet master, so I dislike the analogy. We're simply a part of a universal system. People generally have no qualms with conceding determinism for, say, inanimate objects. How is it that we, made of the same stuff, matter/energy, are exempt from the same rules?
Also, why try to imply that I'm trying to give myself multiple possible outcomes? I'm not. All of our decisions are determined, but it's the physical forces that make up "me" that lead to the decision. I make my own decisions. We all have multiple choices that we could take. The fact that we will only take one, and could have taken no other, makes the choice no less exciting, or rewarding, or interesting.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
So? That doesn't make it any less predetermined.
Predetermined implies a prediction. Nothing is destined, but all is determined. there's a difference.
But as you're using it, no, it makes it no less determined. So you're right. That's just not a bad thing. many people simply see it as a bad thing because it's so opposed to consensus cultural opinion in the Western world.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
View it as such if you must. Again, it's assigning a value judgement (in this case negative) to causality, which is neutral in terms of intrinsic value.
I'm not giving a value judgment on anything. I'm simply saying that it's ridiculous to say that a determined choice is still a choice without using some manner of double-think.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Free will, then, is when we aren't impeded in our desires. If I want to go to the store, but am forced to stay at home by a robber who keeps me at gunpoint, my free will (the choice, desire, that I wish to make) is being taken from me. Without any restrictions on such things, we are free in a determined system.
In a determined world you never have actual free will. The inability to see the script doesn't change that, it just makes the determination meaningless from an internal perspective. If you watch a movie do the actors pretend to make choices but instead they're following the script for their character, a script that existed before they began the scene and won't change no matter how many times you watch the movie.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
A term I'm fond of is "no-fault determinism." In it, no one is "at fault" for their bad/illegal/etc. decisions, because in a deterministic system it could be no other way. An act may be unfortunate, but is perfectly logical given the preceding causes of it. Such systems still advocate prisons, the law, etc. but for the protection of other human beings, not as punishment for the criminal, which would imply wrongdoing. As uncharacteristic for many of us as it is, it promotes an understanding and acceptance of any act, while still taking steps to ensure that others aren't robbed of their freedom, as defined above.
That sounds like a desperate way to reconcile determinism and the desire to have free will by doing nothing but changing the outward reasons for doing things.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Puppet implies a puppet master, so I dislike the analogy. We're simply a part of a universal system.
There's no equivalent to a puppet that I can think of and it expresses the concept perfectly.
Are you denying that the system itself determines everything? A "puppet master" doesn't have to be sentient it just has to be within a deterministic system. If you decide to replace a deity with the idea of a "universal system" you still have a puppet master, it's just spread out through the entire universe.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Also, why try to imply that I'm trying to give myself multiple possible outcomes? I'm not. All of our decisions are determined, but it's the physical forces that make up "me" that lead to the decision. I make my own decisions. We all have multiple choices that we could take. The fact that we will only take one, and could have taken no other, makes the choice no less exciting, or rewarding, or interesting.
Of course it doesn't make anything less interesting or exciting but it still makes it cease to be a choice.
free will is not congruent with modern neuroscience
namely, anything referred to by the word "I" (as in the experience of thinking/feeling) has little control over the preparation and motivation behind action (unless in a very indirect way), and can be entirely oblivious to the reasons underlying both simple object identification or even more complex moral decisions.
Much of the "non-conscious" (and I hate that term) planning and initiation of action is based on long term connections based on stimuli encountered in the outside world, in a very simple cause and effect type manner (simple as in A happens then B happens, complex in the way that there are hundreds of billions of these simple things happening at any time).
The brain is very deterministic, though for some reason it does not feel that way. Full disclosure, the way drugs affect your brain and your experience does somewhat call this into question, but that probably goes beyond the scope of this thread, and is fairly easily incorporated into this line of reasoning.
I guess all that being said, there is evidence that the "I" has control over preventing action that is prepared without its control. Again though, whether that is conscious or just a more complex deterministic system is contentious, and personally I feel, when applying Occam's Razor, that the later is much more likely.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
How is it that we, made of the same stuff, matter/energy, are exempt from the same rules?
Exactly, so why is puppet and master a bad analogy? My car is a puppet and, I'm the master. So what makes me so special and unlike my car, there's no man behind the curtain for me?
Unless you're like Han Solo and think "There's no mystical energy field controlling my destiny".