The Black Rider vs. the White Rider: the Debate

Okay this debate has been going on for a long time and no one seemed to make it into a thread so... *drum roll* ...I made a thread. This is the Black Rider (Witch-king of Angmar) vs. the White Rider (Gandalf the White). The two confront one another within the Gates of Minas Tirith as shown in the Siege of Gondor.

In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl. A great black shape against the fires beyond he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face.
All save one. There waiting, silent and still in the space before the Gate, sat Gandalf upon Shadowfax: Shadowfax who alone among the free horses of the earth endured the terror, unmoving, steadfast as a graven image in Rath Dinen.
'You cannot enter here,' said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. 'Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!'
The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. The red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.
'Old fool!' he said. 'Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!' And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade.

Indeed they do meet, but I always see the Witch-Kings speech as confidence rather than a state of fact, in his letters Tolkein states that the Nazgul rely primarily on the irrational fear that they instill in men. Gandalf the White however does not show this fear. In fact it can be argued that if Pippin had not rushed to Gandalf and asked for him to aid Faramir then Gandalf would have perused the Witch-King and Gandalf seems quite confident of victory, however it may be speculated that it would have destroyed them both.

My quotes
"Gandalf looked through the gaping Gate, and already on the fields he heard the gathering sound of battle. He clenched his hand. 'I must go,' he said. 'The Black Rider is abroad, and he will yet bring ruin on us. I have no time.'

"Now he dismounted and bade Shadowfax return to his stable. 'For, my friend,' he said, 'you and I should have ridden to the fields long ago, but other matters delay me. Yet come swiftly if I call!'"

To me and many others both these demonstrate Gandalfs almost frustration at not being able to face the Black although he's aware Faramirs fate hangs in the balance.

On a side note it is also possible to argue that Gandalf is the greater even if we do not draw combat into it. It was he who commanded the last defence of Gondor with many seeking his advice, it was also he that urges Lord Denethor II to send for aid to Rohan (I believe) so by these acts he summons the aid to the city, he musters the defence and the fact that he never beats the Witch King in combat or visa versa is irrelevant as Gandalf had the Witch King beaten already by his organisation of the defence.

It is also interesting to note that Gandalf the Grey makes reference to defending himself for a long period of time against the Nine upon Amon Sul in FOTR, The Council Of Elrond.
"I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second from Bree-and they were there before me. They drew away from me, for they felt the coming of my anger and they dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky. But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top, in the old ring on Amon Sul. I was hard put to indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old. At sunrise I escaped and fled towards the North. I could not hope to do more. It was impossible to find you, Frodo, in the wilderness, and it would have been folly to try with all the Nine at my heels. So I had to trust Aragorn. But I hoped to draw some of them off, and yet reach Rivendell ahead of you and send out help. Four riders did indeed follow me, but they turned back after a while and made for the Ford, it seems. That helped a little, for there were only five, not nine, when your camp was attacked"

Witchy, duh. ermm

witchy

Gandalf knew he would be the only one capable of standing against the Lord of the Nazgûl in single combat. If anyone had a chance to slay him it would be him.

'Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you,' said Denethor. 'For myself, I have long known who is the chief captain of the hosts of the Dark Tower. Is this all that you have returned to say? Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?'
Pippin trembled, fearing Gandalf wound be stung to sudden wrath, but his fear was needless. 'It might be so,' Gandalf answered softly. 'But our trial of strength is not yet come.'

It seemed that Gandalf himself had doubts about the strength of the Lord of the Nazgûl and was not sure whether or not he could stand against him.

'No,' said Gandalf. 'But he still lived when I left him. Yet he is resolved to stay with the rearguard, lest the retreat over the Pelennor become a rout. He may, perhaps, hold his men together long enough, but I doubt it. He is pitted against a foe too great. For one has come that I feared.'

Gandalf knew that even the great captain of Gondor was facing a foe that outclassed him clearly. The white wizard seemed to have known that he would be the best chance to face the Lord of the Nazgûl.

And on the accounts of Gandalf vs. the Nine when he was Gandalf the Grey, it seems that we do not know how the fight actually happened expect that Gandalf managed to hold his own against the Nine and fled in the morning.

When the dark shadow at the Gate withdrew Gandalf still sat motionless.

He wasn't too eager to give chase to the Witch-king.

I think that Gandalf could match the Witch-King. The light from his staff managed to banish 3 Nazgul that were terrorizing the fleeing knights and rangers. In the book, he ambushed all nine with that flood (Peter Jackson had Arwen do it, but it was actually Gandalf) (I think). Anyway, that's nothing really, seeing as they didn't know what was coming. I think that Gandalf could easily face off against the Witch-King if he were on a horse, but not a fell-beast.
The Witch-King is tough though. Saruman was afraid of him. But then, Saruman was a coward who was beginning to lose his powers.

Originally posted by Council#13
I think that Gandalf could match the Witch-King. The light from his staff managed to banish 3 Nazgul that were terrorizing the fleeing knights and rangers. In the book, he ambushed all nine with that flood (Peter Jackson had Arwen do it, but it was actually Gandalf) (I think). Anyway, that's nothing really, seeing as they didn't know what was coming. I think that Gandalf could easily face off against the Witch-King if he were on a horse, but not a fell-beast.
The Witch-King is tough though. Saruman was afraid of him. But then, Saruman was a coward who was beginning to lose his powers.

That was Glorfindel that drove the Nine Nazgûl back from the Ford. And come on, a giant flood would have whipped out anyone and yet the Ringwraiths were not killed. Glorfindel had the help of the magic of Rivendell as well.

Quote you were referring to with the Nazgûl and the retreating knights:

The Nazgûl screeched and swept away, for their Captain was not yet come to challenge the white fire of his foe.

Yeah, we know that Gandalf could stand against the lesser Nazgul at that moment he is described as a white flame once again unveiled with the brialliant white light shining from his upraised hand, bore by Shadowfax outriding them all.

Originally posted by thefallen544
Yeah, we know that Gandalf could stand against the lesser Nazgul at that moment he is described as a white flame once again unveiled with the brialliant white light shining from his upraised hand, bore by Shadowfax outriding them all.

He can stand against the lesser Nazgûl as well as many others. But the Lord of the Nazgûl seems to be another story. Sauron's greatest servant who has been enchanced by his master's dark powers.

Indeed it is the ultimate struggle in a way, Gandalf the White enhanced by the grace of Eru Vs the greatest of the Nazgul enhanced by the dark powers of Sauron. The only two people I know of mentioned in the books who the Nazgul feared without the ehahcement were Gandalf and Glorfindel.

Originally posted by thefallen544
Indeed it is the ultimate struggle in a way, Gandalf the White enhanced by the grace of Eru Vs the greatest of the Nazgul enhanced by the dark powers of Sauron. The only two people I know of mentioned in the books who the Nazgul feared without the ehahcement were Gandalf and Glorfindel.

Shame Tolkein never had the two actually clash at Minas Tirith. He really built up the confrontation between the two at the beginning of the Return of the King with Denethor and Gandalf speaking about the Lord of the Nazgûl.

The other eight Nazgûl fled before Gandalf the White but the Witch-king alone rode to race him before the archway.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
The other eight Nazgûl fled before Gandalf the White but the Witch-king alone rode to race him before the archway.

Okay, I'm no LotR expert, and I don't want to make Witchy look bad, but of course Witchy was going to ride up and try to face Gandalf. Personaly, I think the old Witch King of Agmar or where ever had a bit of an ego on him. He would have ridden up to anyone that dared to challenge his greatness.
Gandalf, I think, is much wiser, and knew he had other things to take care of that were way more important than just prooving to Witchy that Gandalf was better. Gandalf was like "Let the Witch King think what he wants, I've got better things to do."
So Witchy assumed that Gandalf not ever coming out and challenging him head on probably meant that Gandalf was a tad bit scared of him, which gave him a mega ego boost, and he went and rode into to Minas Tirith.
Now, I haven't read RotK for some time, and I don't remember exactly how everything went down to be able to say what happens next and who does what and who thinks what.

('cept I know Witchy said "Do you not know death when you see it?"😉 (Cause that's like my favorite line.)

Originally posted by ESB -1138
That was Glorfindel that drove the Nine Nazgûl back from the Ford. And come on, a giant flood would have whipped out anyone and yet the Ringwraiths were not killed. Glorfindel had the help of the magic of Rivendell as well.

Quote you were referring to with the Nazgûl and the retreating knights:

The Nazgûl screeched and swept away, for their Captain was not yet come to challenge the white fire of his foe.

Right, well I read the book like 7 years ago. Can't remember it that well. I think I'd better go read it again.

Originally posted by Nazgulinthedark
Okay, I'm no LotR expert, and I don't want to make Witchy look bad, but of course Witchy was going to ride up and try to face Gandalf. Personaly, I think the old Witch King of Agmar or where ever had a bit of an ego on him. He would have ridden up to anyone that dared to challenge his greatness.
Gandalf, I think, is much wiser, and knew he had other things to take care of that were way more important than just prooving to Witchy that Gandalf was better. Gandalf was like "Let the Witch King think what he wants, I've got better things to do."
So Witchy assumed that Gandalf not ever coming out and challenging him head on probably meant that Gandalf was a tad bit scared of him, which gave him a mega ego boost, and he went and rode into to Minas Tirith.
Now, I haven't read RotK for some time, and I don't remember exactly how everything went down to be able to say what happens next and who does what and who thinks what.

('cept I know Witchy said "Do you not know death when you see it?"😉 (Cause that's like my favorite line.)

And the Witch-king had nothing better to do? Gandalf left to save Faramir and the Witch-king left to face the Rohirrim. The Witch-king was like, "okay the old man could wait, I've got 6,000 Rohirrim to deal with."

The eight Nazgûl dared not face Gandalf without their Captain and their Captain alone came to face Gandalf. The Nazgûl are not mindless beings. They have been around for thousands of years and they know a lot about Middle-earth.

And the Witch-king doesn't have an ego. For he had been increased in strength by his dark master and everyone (but Gandalf) fled before him when he entered Minas Tirith. Ally and enemy feared the Lord of the Nazgûl. He rode forth into the gate to battle Gandalf but left because of a bigger threat.

A-ha, indeed but Tolkein himself states in Letter #210 "[The Black Riders] peril is almost entirely due to the unreasoning fear which they inspire (like ghosts). They have no great physical power against the fearless..."

Gandalf shows that as Gandalf the White he is not afraid of the Nazgûl not their Captain standing steadfast against him, even with the WK's enhancement I would only give him even odds against the White he may be able to duel him and it would be luck of the battle and will that would dictate the winner I don't think it would be clear cut that he would be more powerful as the power of fear was not with him.

The Witchking is apparently afraid of Glorfindel who Frodo describes as creature of light in the wraith world. Gandalf or Elrond (can't remember which one) explains this as being because Glorfindel was from Valinor and the power of the Light of the Two Trees was feared by the Ringwraiths. Since Gandalf is also from Valinor it can be deducted that Gandalf also has this power. In addition, this is Gandalf the White who was stronger than Gandalf the Grey. Gandalf the Grey was able to defeat the a Balrog which is slightly less powerful than Sauron in his weakened state. And Sauron is obviously more powerful that the Witchking. Therefore Gandalf the White is much more powerful than the Witchking. Even, further, the Witchking controls the power of a human ring while Gandalf was the Elven Ring of Fire which is more powerful than the human rings. Gandalf seems to have every advantage in this fight.

Originally posted by Nellinator
The Witchking is apparently afraid of Glorfindel who Frodo describes as creature of light in the wraith world. Gandalf or Elrond (can't remember which one) explains this as being because Glorfindel was from Valinor and the power of the Light of the Two Trees was feared by the Ringwraiths. Since Gandalf is also from Valinor it can be deducted that Gandalf also has this power. In addition, this is Gandalf the White who was stronger than Gandalf the Grey. Gandalf the Grey was able to defeat the a Balrog which is slightly less powerful than Sauron in his weakened state. And Sauron is obviously more powerful that the Witchking. Therefore Gandalf the White is much more powerful than the Witchking. Even, further, the Witchking controls the power of a human ring while Gandalf was the Elven Ring of Fire which is more powerful than the human rings. Gandalf seems to have every advantage in this fight.

The human rings of powers were forged by Sauron and the elves. The elves learned of the One Ring and took them off and Sauron managed to steal all but three and he gave nine to man.

None of the Nazgûl were afraid of Glorfindel

'Go back!' he cried [Glorfindel]. 'Got back to the Land of Mordor, and follow me no more!' His voice sounded thin and shrill in his own ears. The Riders halted, but Frodo had not the power of Bombadil. His enemies laughed at him with harsh and chilling laughter. 'Come back! Come back!' they cried. 'To Mordor we will take you!'

'Go back!' he whispered.

'The Ring! The Ring!' they cried with deadly voices; and immediately their leader urged his horse forward into the water, followed closely by two others.

'By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair,' said Frodo with a last effort, lifting up his sword, 'you shall have neither the Ring nor me!'

Then the leader, who was now half way across the Ford, stood up menacing in his stirrups, and raised up his hand. Frodo was stricken dumb. He felt his tongue cleave to his mouth, and his heart labouring. His sword broke and fell out of his shaking hand. The elf-horse reared and snorted. The foremost of the black horses had almost set foot upon shore.

The human rings were not as powerful as the elvish rings.
Also, they were not afraid of Glorfindel in this situation because there was nine of tem. I was referring to the meeting of Glorfindel and the Witchking in the appendix of ROTK.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
The human rings of powers were forged by Sauron and the elves. The elves learned of the One Ring and took them off and Sauron managed to steal all but three and he gave nine to man.

None of the Nazgûl were afraid of Glorfindel

'Go back!' he cried [Glorfindel]. 'Got back to the Land of Mordor, and follow me no more!' His voice sounded thin and shrill in his own ears. The Riders halted, but Frodo had not the power of Bombadil. His enemies laughed at him with harsh and chilling laughter. 'Come back! Come back!' they cried. 'To Mordor we will take you!'

'Go back!' he whispered.

'The Ring! The Ring!' they cried with deadly voices; and immediately their leader urged his horse forward into the water, followed closely by two others.

'By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair,' said Frodo with a last effort, lifting up his sword, 'you shall have neither the Ring nor me!'

Then the leader, who was now half way across the Ford, stood up menacing in his stirrups, and raised up his hand. Frodo was stricken dumb. He felt his tongue cleave to his mouth, and his heart labouring. His sword broke and fell out of his shaking hand. The elf-horse reared and snorted. The foremost of the black horses had almost set foot upon shore.

It wasn't Glorfindel who yelled "Go back", it was Frodo. That's pretty clear when it says "but Frodo did not have the power of Bombadill" after that line. It would be pretty stupid if Glorfindel spoke, then they commented Frodo's power....
He also comments "follow me no more". It was Frodo they hunted, not Glorfindel. He would still have no reason to say that more than Frodo...

Just wanted to say that^

But Glorfindel rode up then on his white horse, and in the midst of his laughter the Witch-king turned to flight and passed into the shadows. For night came down on the battlefield, and he was lost, and none saw whither he went.

Angmar was defeated and it was said that not a man nor orc remained west of the mountains. The Witch-king singled out the Captain of Gondor for the fullness of his hatred. But his horse could not endure the terror and fled.

Saying the Witch-king was afraid of Glorfindel would be like saying Sauron was afraid of the Last Alliance. His army was crushed and he knew he was defeated so he fled.

Yeah, nothing says that he was afraid of Glorfindel, the book says he was the only one might of even riding against the black riders...