The Black Rider vs. the White Rider: the Debate

I think hes referring to the fact that the Maiar are meant to keep their power veiled and not show vast amounts of power in order to dominate men and elves and force them to their will. Instead they were to direct them and kindle in them the urge to protect themselves. It is also possible in theory that by taking on a fixed Mortal form that the power of the Maiar's spirit would be lessened somewhat but this is debated quite often and no set decision has ever really been made.

Originally posted by thefallen544
I think hes referring to the fact that the Maiar are meant to keep their power veiled and not show vast amounts of power in order to dominate men and elves and force them to their will. Instead they were to direct them and kindle in them the urge to protect themselves. It is also possible in theory that by taking on a fixed Mortal form that the power of the Maiar's spirit would be lessened somewhat but this is debated quite often and no set decision has ever really been made.

Gandalf did not hold anything back. Gandalf the Grey couldn't even defeat the spiders in The Hobbit. Why would he have held back anything then?

But only a woman can kill the lord nazgul not man ! So how can gandalf kill him ?

Technically Gandalf isn't a man, he is a Maiar spirit in the garb of an old man. I'm assuming Gandalf the Grey went through certain evolutions between the Hobbit and Lotr conquered a certain amount of fear, seeing as he was able to face the Nine in lord of the Rings as the Grey and at least hold them off until he could escape in the morning (and no I'm not going over this again as it will just be a reharsh of old points, I'm going by the texts here). Regardless I did not state that when he showed his power he held back, nor did I state he held back when it was in defence you misread me. I am saying is that the Istari were not allowed to ue their power to force the free peoples of Middle-Earth to their will, for example he couldn't go into an Elven encampment and use the fullest of his power to incite fear ie start burning things so that they cooperated.

They were diplomats, councilors foremost Gandalf himself quotes "For I am also a Steward, did you not know" or words to that effect to Denethor II.

Gandalf Gandalf (the witch king= loser)

just my oppinion

The whole no man can kill me thing was a prophecy, not a curse or something. If a man were to do what Eowyn did, the WK would indeed have died. However the prophecy was that it would be a women who would eventually due the WK in.

Originally posted by Blax X
The whole no man can kill me thing was a prophecy, not a curse or something. If a man were to do what Eowyn did, the WK would indeed have died. However the prophecy was that it would be a women who would eventually due the WK in.

Actually it was because of Merry the Witch-king was killed. All Eowyn did was deliver the final blow. But I guess that's what you are talking about.

Yeah, t3h stab in zee face.

the white rider doh! 😊 no coment

Originally posted by ESB -1138
That was Glorfindel that drove the Nine Nazgûl back from the Ford. And come on, a giant flood would have whipped out anyone and yet the Ringwraiths were not killed. Glorfindel had the help of the magic of Rivendell as well.

Quote you were referring to with the Nazgûl and the retreating knights:

The Nazgûl screeched and swept away, for their Captain was not yet come to challenge the white fire of his foe.

It was Glorfindel that aided Frodo, but I was pretty sure that the magic was Elrond's, with a little help from Gandalf.

I keep thinking of the battle at weathertop, and it leads me to believe that Gandalf was more powerful.

gandalf would prolly melt face

what happened to the seven rings given to the Dwarves

Some of the Seven were lost, some were recovered by the Dark Lord. The ones that were lost were probably consumed by the dragons of old, their fire was hot enough to melt the lesser rings of power yet not strong enough to unmake the One Ring.

didn't Thrain have one of them?

He may have done at one point but to my knowledge all of the Seven were either destroyed or reclaimed by Sauron.

Tolkien leaves it deliberately unclear as to who would win between Witchy and Whitey. As has already been quoted here, Gandalf is very much unsure if he can beat him, though nor is he in despair.

Also remember that Tolkien never engaged in trying to rate how pwerful different things were against each other. it;s not like a comic book and it often does not follow any direct logic, with the myth and spirit of the piece being more important than anything literal. Odd things like the fight against the Balrog compared to the Spiders in the Hobbit illustrate this, excuses about not being able to use all their power are a. pretty weak and b. irrelevant to the argument anyway, because you can't start arguing about powers they cannot use, the argument revolves around what they can. I never bought that argument anyway, drama destroying as it is.

As part of this fuzzienss, the Witch-King that takes the field at Pelenor seems to be in a kind of battle mode, like the Witch-King of old in Angmar, as opposed to the fast-moving shade on Weathertop. There is no specified difference but definitely an implied one- possibly relating to purpose, distance from Mordor, the growing power of Sauron, taking new purpose after dissolution at the Ford etc.

This kind of thing makes these comparisons of various different events almost impossible.

('cept I know Witchy said "Do you not know death when you see it?"😉 (Cause that's like my favorite line.)

personally I feel that Gandalf takes this