The Black Rider vs. the White Rider: the Debate

Originally posted by Nellinator
The human rings were not as powerful as the elvish rings.
Also, they were not afraid of Glorfindel in this situation because there was nine of tem. I was referring to the meeting of Glorfindel and the Witchking in the appendix of ROTK.

Ost-in-Edhil suprassed all (smiths) that they had contrived before; and they took thought, and they made Rings of Power. But Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance.
--Of the Rings of Power

All the Rings of Power were made by the same people. Sauron placed the One Ring on and quickly the Elves removed their Rings of Power and they fled saving three Rings and Sauron gathered the others and gave seven to the Dwarves and nine to the Men.

The Rings of Power that the Nazgûl had were made by the same people who made the Elven Rings of Power. So there is NO proof or evidence to say that the three Rings the Elves had was any stronger then those given to the men.

Actually there is proof they were more mightly, allow me to quote the Silmarillion, "Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age"

'Now these were the Three that had last been made, and they possessed the greatest powers. Narya, Nenya and Vilya,they were named, the Rings of Fire, and of Water, and of Air, set with ruby and adamant and sapphire; and of all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to posses them, for those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the the weariness of the world. But Sauron could not discover them, for they were given into the hands of the Wise, who concealed them and never again used them openly while Sauron kept the Ruling Ring"
(Emphasis mine)

Also the Three we're not made by the same people as made the others, they are credited to one Elven Smith and he forged them away from any hand or device of Sauron he forged them alone and he was called Celebrimbor. Whilst they also fell under the dominance of the one they were greater than the other works.

'Therefore the Three remained unsullied, for they were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron had never touched them; yet they also were subject to the One."

Of course Eregion was laid waste and Celebrimbor slain and the other rings gathered, perverted by Sauron and distributed to those seeking power beyond their measure of which men were most easily corrupted. Eventually all bearers of the Nine over time, depending on how good or evil their intentions were at the beginning fell to the power of the Ring and became Nazgul. "And they cried with the voices of death"

ward off the decays of time and postpone the the weariness of the world

That means time doesn't effect them not that they wield greater power then the other rings. And Gandalf never used the Ring of Fire.

I think the line "Possesed the greatest powers" still would mean they were mightier in power no matter what effects that power took, Elrond and Galadriel as you know used their rings to maintain the kingdoms of Rivendell and Lorien and after the destruction of the one, and the loss of power of the three the kingdoms would fall into grey somewhat. To maintain such kingdoms shows much power. I do think Gandalf wore the Red Ring however there is a relevant quote but I am late for work and shall search later.

Originally posted by thefallen544
I think the line "Possesed the greatest powers" still would mean they were mightier in power no matter what effects that power took, Elrond and Galadriel as you know used their rings to maintain the kingdoms of Rivendell and Lorien and after the destruction of the one, and the loss of power of the three the kingdoms would fall into grey somewhat. To maintain such kingdoms shows much power. I do think Gandalf wore the Red Ring however there is a relevant quote but I am late for work and shall search later.

But yet it was said that the Elves feared to use their rings because they would become slaves to the One.

And power just doesn't mean strength.

Yes they feared to use them when Sauron held the one they were still subject to the will of the one ring even though they were the most powerful. And is there any reference to what the other rings did what powers or strength they gave? All I'm saying is the Elven rings where the greatest in power the may not have given the greatest physical strength.

Originally posted by thefallen544
Yes they feared to use them when Sauron held the one they were still subject to the will of the one ring even though they were the most powerful. And is there any reference to what the other rings did what powers or strength they gave? All I'm saying is the Elven rings where the greatest in power the may not have given the greatest physical strength.

The men who wielded them became kings, sorcerers, and warriors and it seemed they had unending life. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in the world beneath the sun, and they could see things in the worlds invisible to mortal men.

Glorfindel is bad ass.

"There are few even in Rivendell that can ride openly against the Nine; but such as there were Elrond sent out.." Glorfindel can ride openly against the Nine.

"You saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the First-born. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes. Indeed there is power in Rivendell to withstand the might of Mordor, for a while."

there was another passage about the nazgul being caught between the rushing water and "an Elf-lord revealed in his wrath" and they chose the waves. nuff said!

Yes they became Kings, Warriors and Sorcerers. Its a pretty wide list there it seems more person specific. And they had unending life seemingly because they were Wraiths neither living nor dead it seemed their life was bound to the ring and through their days they were nothing but slaves to it. Would you wish to live forever in the shackles of a slave? This seems more like a curse than a blessing, invisible to the world, corrupted past what you once where.

Originally posted by thefallen544
Yes they became Kings, Warriors and Sorcerers. Its a pretty wide list there it seems more person specific. And they had unending life seemingly because they were Wraiths neither living nor dead it seemed their life was bound to the ring and through their days they were nothing but slaves to it. Would you wish to live forever in the shackles of a slave? This seems more like a curse than a blessing, invisible to the world, corrupted past what you once where.

And do you think those who held the Three Rings would have managed to endure the will of Sauron? Or would they too fall into his grasp and also be Wraiths.

They would fall into his grasp if he had the one ring, I'm not arguing this. You just seemed to make out the ability to walk unseen by man as a gift I'm arguing it as a curse not a point against the Nine and for the Three or that those who wielded the Three were better in any. My opinion that I think the three possesd more raw power in whatever form it came across is obvious and I will stand by that as we are all entitled to our own opinion. Anyway the three didn't fall because the Elves sensed Saurons plan through the three the second he put on the one ring and removed their rings so.

Originally posted by thefallen544
They would fall into his grasp if he had the one ring, I'm not arguing this. You just seemed to make out the ability to walk unseen by man as a gift I'm arguing it as a curse not a point against the Nine and for the Three or that those who wielded the Three were better in any. My opinion that I think the three possesd more raw power in whatever form it came across is obvious and I will stand by that as we are all entitled to our own opinion. Anyway the three didn't fall because the Elves sensed Saurons plan through the three the second he put on the one ring and removed their rings so.

The Nine were worn by Sauron's Ringwraiths until he recovered them. Once enslaved, Sauron no longer needed the Nazgûl to wear the rings. The fate of the Nine rings was likely the same as that of the remaining Dwarven rings.

Sauron didn't need the Nazgul to wear them but he did keep them, there would be no use in throwing them away or destroying them as they were servants to the one and they (the Nazgul) yearned for the Nine. The nine were probably lost or destroyed when Barad-Dur fell but Sauron would not have destroyed them willfully. He actually recovered some of the Dwarven rings so why he'd do that and then destroy the nine I don't know.

Originally posted by thefallen544
Sauron didn't need the Nazgul to wear them but he did keep them, there would be no use in throwing them away or destroying them as they were servants to the one and they (the Nazgul) yearned for the Nine. The nine were probably lost or destroyed when Barad-Dur fell but Sauron would not have destroyed them willfully. He actually recovered some of the Dwarven rings so why he'd do that and then destroy the nine I don't know.

Perhaps Sauron kept them to enslave others. Or use them as gifts to gain others to his ranks.

Indeed maybe so, although full corruption to wraith form takes a very long time. Would be quite funny if he could just corrupt more
Nazgul: Hey we're the Nine, who are you?
Nazgul 2: No, WE'RE the Nine who the hell are you?
Moderate Nazgul: Can't we just meet in the middle?

Later

Witch-King: None can stand against the errrrm...Eighteen!

Originally posted by thefallen544
Indeed maybe so, although full corruption to wraith form takes a very long time. Would be quite funny if he could just corrupt more
Nazgul: Hey we're the Nine, who are you?
Nazgul 2: No, WE'RE the Nine who the hell are you?
Moderate Nazgul: Can't we just meet in the middle?

Later

Witch-King: None can stand against the errrrm...Eighteen!

I think it would take some time for anyone to completely fall into the wraith world. It never says how long the Nine did take to fall but it took different lengths of time depending on the good or evil of one's heart. It may have taken some time. Who knows.

Indeed, I was kinda implying that to corrupt others with the Nine would have taken a long time.

What I think that this comes down to is that Gandalf is a higher order or being, as is Sauron and the Balrogs. The 9 Nazgul were just bumped up men.

As to using the Rings, that IIRC is how Elrond and Galadriel preserved their domains and Elrond used his Ring to command the waters against the 9, after Glorfindel held them at the shore.

I think in an all out battle, Gandalf defeats anyone of the 9 rather easily but I think that would violate the "code" that the wise operate under which is to say that they can only use their power to deal with things that elves, dwarves and men could not such as Balrogs.

gandalf would beat the witch king

Originally posted by thtadthtshldntb
I think in an all out battle, Gandalf defeats anyone of the 9 rather easily but I think that would violate the "code" that the wise operate under which is to say that they can only use their power to deal with things that elves, dwarves and men could not such as Balrogs.

Mind telling where you got this code from.