Post Star Forge Revan & ROTS Obi-Wan vs. ROTS Mace & Kyle Katarn

Started by Advent17 pages
Originally posted by yettoh
obi wans has a defensive stance

And? Yes, he uses Soresu. Please, if you will turn your head to Defense Exhibit A:

Just a reminder for the court.

and he could hold of mace or kyle with it think of obi ani battle

1.) When I think of the Obi-Wan and Anakin duel, I think of Anakin beating the shit out of Obi-Wan, and resorting to tactics like lava skating, platform jumping, and plainly running away. He only won because he "has the high ground", and Anakin was clouded by the Darkside completely.

2.) By this logic, Obi-Wan should be able to hold off Count Dooku because Anakin killed him. But, guess what? He only lasted 20 seconds, LOL!

3.) Do you even know who Kyle Katarn is? I posted numerous information on him. He'd beat the shit out of Obi-Wan, just like Dooku - given Kyle's the superior Force user, and lightsaber user. As is Mace, who's considered on par - at the least - with Dooku.

obi wan can beat mace because ani can kill him

Bullshit. Obi-Wan could never beat Mace. Mace's only superior in the Jedi Order is Yoda. Anakin might be on par with him in terms of lightsaber ability, though not Force powers.

And Obi-Wan didn't beat Anakin evenly. By YOUR OWN LOGIC Obi-Wan could beat Dooku, because Anakin did. We saw in ROTS, this would never happen. As I explained, Obi-Wan had to resort to cheap tactics, luck, and so on. Anakin was not thinking clearly. We know that when he is, he's capable of owning one of the top five most powerful Force users in a minute.

ROTS novelization makes that clear.

even if they did have a fight even though mace has shatterpoint soresu can hold that off

How is Soresu, a lightsaber form, going to prevent Shatterpoint, a Force ability? And, what's even funnier is that Obi-Wan couldn't even withstand a Force push from Dooku. And what's even funnier than that is Darth "Friggin" Sidious, who's leagues above Obi-Wan in terms of Force power and dueling ability, wasn't able to prevent Shatterpoint.

When has Shatterpoint been blocked again? Never? Because it's practically something that can't?

And when I talk about that "Force push" - I'm talking about the very first time Dooku and Obi-Wan engaged lightsabers. Obi-Wan got tooled twice by the Force. One being a Force push, the other was a choke, toss, and collapse.

reven could kill kyle in that time

Yes, highly logical that someone on par - if not above - Dooku will be held up for that long. It's funny when you consider Obi-Wan only actually fought with Dooku for twenty seconds before getting owned.

And there's no possible way that Revan can even kill Kyle easily, if at all. Need I post all that information again?

The defense rests it's case.

1.) When I think of the Obi-Wan and Anakin duel, I think of Anakin beating the shit out of Obi-Wan, and resorting to tactics like lava skating, platform jumping, and plainly running away. He only won because he "has the high ground", and Anakin was clouded by the Darkside completely.

What the hell, he wasn't using cheap tricks. Anakin is the one who destroyed the playing field. They would have continued to fight on a flat surface had not he slashed the alarm. This would have prevented the lava skating and the higher ground scenario.

And Obi-Wan jumped on the platform because he was being pushed by Anakin's Djem So. He had no where else to go.

And Anakin was not beating the shit of Obi-Wan. Yes, he was winning in many parts of the duel, but he wasn't pawning his master. There wasn't any time during the duel that I thought Obi-Wan is getting destroyed.

2.) By this logic, Obi-Wan should be able to hold off Count Dooku because Anakin killed him. But, guess what? He only lasted 20 seconds, LOL!

Actually, he lasted 45 seconds before collapsing.

And? Yes, he uses Soresu. Please, if you will turn your head to Defense Exhibit A:

Didn't find your Exhibit quite useful. We only have a glimpse of Obi-Wan before he gets thrown.

Do you even know who Kyle Katarn is? I posted numerous information on him. He'd beat the shit out of Obi-Wan, just like Dooku - given Kyle's the superior Force user, and lightsaber user. As is Mace, who's considered on par - at the least - with Dooku.

We all know who Katarn is, and we all know he's greater than Obi-Wan.

And when I talk about that "Force push" - I'm talking about the very first time Dooku and Obi-Wan engaged lightsabers. Obi-Wan got tooled twice by the Force. One being a Force push, the other was a choke, toss, and collapse.

He didn't get tooled by the Force. He got pushed. And the second scene, he would have gotten up had not Dooku threw that thing on him.

So you're saying that Kyle will tool Obi-Wan is about thirty seconds and then wipe the floor with Revan.

I think Obi-Wan will fight a long match, even if he's getting tooled. By it all depends how long Revan can take out Kyle or Mace so he can save Obi-Wan and then go back to his original target. I am not quite sure about this. He'll probably have a long duel with either of them, so it depends on Obi-Wan. And Obi-Wan will lose to either of them, so yeah.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Which is as I stated before, bullshit. Revan already knew how to use that function of the Star Forge. The second function is to strengthen a powerful dark side user with force energy, which Malak reveals.

No. You are simply assuming he's talking about that without it being mentioned. They only used the SF for starship production, then the officer comes up and says that they are producing 3 times as many starships as they did when Revan was in charge and then Malak comes up with the statement that "if Revan had discovered all the power of the SF he would have been invincible". Yeah. What were they talking about ? Starship production - not some other power which is never mentioned and never used.

If the SF makes somebody powerful then you might tell me why Malak did install those Jedi there to heal himself up and - despite of the fact that Revan and him were almost equal and he now had the SF and the Jedi to heal himself as additional resources - had his ass handed to Revan again...


Because he has not shown this ability, and neither has he shown sufficient strength in the force as to pull off the same feat that Yoda did.

WTF ? Read Shatterpoint, the CW era novels / comics and watch the CW cartoons and then come up with the "Mace has not shown sufficient strength in the force" bull again...


Really, he was barely able to block Sidious' lightning. Again I am waiting for proof that he can deflect Revan's "miniature storm" (which was described as being far greater)

Wow. He was only barely able to block a sustained wave of force lightning at point blank range when we saw a single blast of it having enough energy to push Yoda through Sidious office ?


Unvalidated, and an utterly false assumption. Revan's storm was not described as something coming from his fingertips, then going towards the sky and crashing down on the Rakatans. It was actually described as coming from the sky. It appeared as multiple bolts of lightnigng that appeared from the sky to slaughter "raiding/scouting" parties. In the Star Wars films (highest authority) Sidious' lightning was not shown to be anywhere near this magnitude.

Oh wow. What people can make out of the sentence that he "pulled lightning from the sky"...
It is possible that none force users don't see the force energy coming from the hand but only that, which comes down from the sky in form of lightning. Hence they exactly saw this and nothing more.

And Sidious obliterated a Battalion of Stormtroopers with force lightning. A batallion, according to the information given about the Republic army, consisted of 576 Clones commanded by a Major. So ups...he actually killed far more people than Revan did.


Revan is stronger than ROTS Sidious, but not his DE incarnation. Do not intentionally be vague.

Proof ?


Only as much as you do not possess the faculties for logical thought. Revan's lightning was described visually as far superiour than Sidious'. If you look at the movie (the highest authority for Star Wars, Sidious' lightning was comparitevely pussy). Revan's was described as something far larger in magnitude.

How can something, that you have never seen, be "visually descriped" as far superior to something that the guy, who gave the description has never seen before, huh ? Fallible third party sources are nothing to base an argument on.


Of course, because a single bolt of lightning can defeat multiple opponents (from the scouting parties). Obviously there were multiple bolts which indicate something of a storm like nature. Revan's manifestation was clearly different than Kyp's.

Oh it was ? Kyp used his force powers to summon a thunderstorm and then fried the Leviathan with it. And he called a sustain lightning bolt from the sky that fried the Leviathan for several seconds. Uh...you were saying ?


Other than the fact that it is far greater in magnitude then typical force lightning, and that it does not originate from the said users fingetips, which you have yet to prove it does.

Other than your assumption that it's far greater in magnitude based on the comment of a fallible source it's pretty obvious, that something able to kill 576 Stormtroopers trumps the ability that killed one Rakatan scouting party (small Rancor, some Rakatans).


Oh right, assumptions galore. You assume that the technique used by Darth Revan in his peak was the same one as described in KOTOR where Revan has not yet fully recovered his memory(and is consequently not as strong), despite being told by the Rakatans that the force lightning came from the sky. Since the threadmaker has stated that it is Post Star Forge Revan, (Revan in outer regions) then he has fully regained his memory. Get it through your skull that it did not come from his fingertips, arch slightly upwards, and towards the Rakatans.

Get it through your skull that the Rakatans are fallible third party source who don't know jack shit about force powers. Get it through your skull that none force users might only see the lightning coming from the sky. Get it through your skull that the said ability is the strongest incarnation of force lightning in KotoR hence Revan could have recovered his memory as much as he wanted - more than "strongest ability" isn't possible.


If you would like to discuss Rakatan psychology with me, and how these bloodthirsty idiots could potentially turn on Revan in the DS side, then be my guest. It is possible the "One" could have continually sent raiding parties, each of which were slaughtered. He referred to Revans attacks as "slaughtering us".

This would still not come even close to Sidious obliterating more than 500 stormtroopers with a single use of force lightning.


Regardless in either case scenario, it does not dimish the nature of the attack.

Regardless...since we have seen Mace being able to block Sidious force lightning, which is more powerful than whatever Revan used, I don't see Revan being able to kill Mace using the force.


Wow, more assumptions. You assume first that the two types of precognition work exclusive of each other, when in KOTOR2 the two types of precognition are actually shown to be synergistic of one another. Your point is moot.

You are obviously as stupid as somebody can be, huh ? If I have one ability, that allows me to forsee what happens in the next 10 seconds (Echani Precog) and another ability that allows me to forsee what happens in the next 20 seconds (Jedi precog) how would it help me to have both abilities ? How can precognition be "synergistic" ? Either you know what happens in the next 10 seconds or you don't. Two abilities that make you know what happens in the next 10 seconds aren't better than one ability that does the same - because in either way you would know what happens in the next 10 seconds.


Um, I guess you missed my point that Obi Wan was using the force agressively, and using an agressive lightsaber stance, hence he got pwned. If he used his defensive techniques fully, then obviously he can prolong the fight for Revan to arrive.

Since when can a lightsaber form directly stop force attacks, huh ? It can't. He can use Soresu until he's blue in the face - that won't stop Mace or Kyle to wipe the floor with him using their superior force powers.


Speak for yourself, you are pulling wild assumptions about Revan's abilites out of your ass in order to support your meager points.

I do ? I just use the description of this ONE ability from the KotoR games and compare what Revan had used to the power of Sidious force lightning which - oh noes - was greater and blocked by Windu.

And even in the worst case scenario (Mace going down against Revan, Obi-Wan in the same moment going down against Kyle - something that won't even happen) Kyle on his own would still destroy Revan.

So...Mace and Kyle always win this - no matter what you do, Revan fanboy.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
What the hell, he wasn't using cheap tricks. Anakin is the one who destroyed the playing field. They would have continued to fight on a flat surface had not he slashed the alarm. This would have prevented the lava skating and the higher ground scenario.

And Obi-Wan jumped on the platform because he was being pushed by Anakin's Djem So. He had no where else to go.

And Anakin was not beating the shit of Obi-Wan. Yes, he was winning in many parts of the duel, but he wasn't pawning his master. There wasn't any time during the duel that I thought Obi-Wan is getting destroyed.

Wow. I'm pretty impressed that you didn't think Obi-Wan would get destroyed, knowing perfectly well that he has to win this duel before even seeing the movie for the first time, given, that you know Vader got a lava bath while Obi-Wan was perfectly ok 2 decades later.


Actually, he lasted 45 seconds before collapsing.

Yes. Because he didn't fight Dooku for the entire time and not one on one.


He didn't get tooled by the Force. He got pushed. And the second scene, he would have gotten up had not Dooku threw that thing on him.

Oh he would ? Would he have been alone, Dooku would have slaughtered 5-10 seconds after he threw him. And Obi-Wan wasn't even moving before Dooku brought that metal thing down on him. So how did you reach that conclusion ?


So you're saying that Kyle will tool Obi-Wan is about thirty seconds and then wipe the floor with Revan.

He's able to tool Obi-Wan in 5 seconds using the force given his far superior force powers (I guess this is post-NJO Kyle).


I think Obi-Wan will fight a long match, even if he's getting tooled. By it all depends how long Revan can take out Kyle or Mace so he can save Obi-Wan and then go back to his original target. I am not quite sure about this. He'll probably have a long duel with either of them, so it depends on Obi-Wan. And Obi-Wan will lose to either of them, so yeah.

Nice. Except for the small facts that Obi-Wan won't last longer against Kyle or Mace than he did against Dooku and I don't see any proof that Revan would even be able to take down Mace or Kyle on his own.

Nai, what the hell is this bullshit about Revan and Malak being "about equal"? Since when were they EVER "about equal"? That's some unsubstantiated bullshit on your part. And when did Sidious kill the stormtroopers. Was it in ROTS or a lot later? And if it was a lot later how the hell can you say "ROTS Sidious had far more powerful lightning than Revan", when that's also unsubstantiated(assuming Sidious didn't kill the Stormtroopers in ROTS). Stop calling people fanboys, you are obviously having a rough month or are angry about something.

'No. You are simply assuming he's talking about that without it being mentioned. They only used the SF for starship production, then the officer comes up and says that they are producing 3 times as many starships as they did when Revan was in charge and then Malak comes up with the statement that "if Revan had discovered all the power of the SF he would have been invincible". Yeah. What were they talking about ? Starship production - not some other power which is never mentioned and never used.

If the SF makes somebody powerful then you might tell me why Malak did install those Jedi there to heal himself up and - despite of the fact that Revan and him were almost equal and he now had the SF and the Jedi to heal himself as additional resources - had his ass handed to Revan again...'

1. Both Malak and Bastilla continuously mention that the SF powers up the individual controlling it, I can't give you the exact quotes because I haven't played the game for a while, but IIRC:

(I)Bastilla mentions that Revan was a fool for not harnessing the full power of the SF (something like that), and sparks fly into her from the SF, and she seems stronger - seemingly she has been powered up.

(II) Malak repeatedly states similar things to what Bastilla says, and at one point even states that he can use the power of the SF to drain the life energy of the jedi and make him stronger (something along those lines).

(III) Once Revan has defeated Malak, he states something like 'Impossible. I have all the power of the SF on my side yet you still beat me' (something similar to that). Now he is clearly referring to combat power here, as he is amazed that Revan was able to defeat him in a combat situation, even though he had all of the power of the SF on his side.

(IV) Malak states to Revan [once Revan has defeated him by the way, not casually as he was talking about the SF's ability to mass produce starships like you just said] that if he had learnt the true power of the SF (True power - different function, nothing about being able to control the SF's ability more efficiently), he may have become invincible. Now seeing as Revan already knew of the SF's ability to produce ships, it definitely can't be that; Malak repeatedly states that Revan was never able to harness the true power of the SF - he also makes it clear that he is referring to the powering up of the SF. It's clear that Malak is referring to the powering up of the SF.

Now the fact that he states that Revan would have become invincible means that either the powering up of the SF is immense, or Revan was already near invincible. Either way, it speaks incredibly for Revan as he was either close to invincible in Malak's eyes (Malak would have had no need to lie, he knew much about the SF and Revan, and would likely be aware of how powerful Revan would have grown with that added power) or the powering up of the SF was immense, and Revan was able to defeat someone who was already extremely powerful, yet had the added power of the SF (which was so immense that it could have possibly made Revan invincible).

2. You seem to think that Malak needing to drain the life off of the captive jedi to keep up with Revan says something bad about Malak. This just says great things about Revan and the SF.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
(III) Once Revan has defeated Malak, he states something like 'Impossible. I have all the power of the SF on my side yet you still beat me' (something similar to that). Now he is clearly referring to combat power here, as he is amazed that Revan was able to defeat him in a [b]combat situation, even though he had all of the power of the SF on his side.[/B]

Well then, Sidious, as of ROTS is the most powerful Sith ever. Look how well Mace did against him. In Dark Empire it says something along the lines of "Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith" and it it clearly referencing to a combat situation.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Well then, Sidious, as of ROTS is the most powerful Sith ever. Look how well Mace did against him. In Dark Empire it says something along the lines of "Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith" and it it clearly referencing to a [B]combat situation. [/B]

You would be reffering to the NEC, which is an in-universe guide. In other words, the narrator is fallible. Basically, it means jack. Unless you can show me where it says this in DE.

Wow. I'm pretty impressed that you didn't think Obi-Wan would get destroyed, knowing perfectly well that he has to win this duel before even seeing the movie for the first time, given, that you know Vader got a lava bath while Obi-Wan was perfectly ok 2 decades later.

Do you even understand what you're saying??? I know Obi-Wan is not going to get destroyed!!!! I said to advent that Anakin wasn't pawning his master. I said that while Anakin was winning for some parts of the duel, it was a close duel, not one-sided.

Yes. Because he didn't fight Dooku for the entire time and not one on one.

Yeah, and the time he was fighting, he was attacking with Ataru or Shii-Cho, something NOT Soresu. The made him even more vulnerable to get himself tooled.

Oh he would ? Would he have been alone, Dooku would have slaughtered 5-10 seconds after he threw him. And Obi-Wan wasn't even moving before Dooku brought that metal thing down on him. So how did you reach that conclusion ?

If he had been alone, that wouldn't have happened until perhaps a minute later.

He's able to tool Obi-Wan in 5 seconds using the force given his far superior force powers (I guess this is post-NJO Kyle).

I don't care how good Kyle is, he won't be able to defeat Kenobi in 5 seconds or 10 seconds.

Nice. Except for the small facts that Obi-Wan won't last longer against Kyle or Mace than he did against Dooku and I don't see any proof that Revan would even be able to take down Mace or Kyle on his own.

Mace and Kyle might win. My only problem is that I feel that Kenobi is being underated.

just cos he ran dosent mean he was getting killed if u was in the army u would use tactis not run straight in and try and ram em to deth and i know who kyle is but he carnt kill jaden and if he carnt kill jaden he **** kill reven and obi wan ran to get the advantage it dosent seem that ulearnt the words tactics they do help

But dude, this is lightsaber combat. And it's a flat surface so you can't do any bullshit like jumping on a platform and running away.

u underestimate obi wan by alot he dunt get pwned he just defends find a weak spot hes masdtered his teqnice and really hes more canon then mace or kyle and kyle runs from desann he can hold out on a flat suface to he about even with katarn obi wan could probaly beat jaden and jadens bets kyle put the facts together from star wars jedi knight sereis

First of all, you're saying I underestimate Obi-Wan, wtf?

Second, Jaden cannot beat Kyle.

Third, Kyle is good, he'll beat Kenobi, but I would say it'll be like a minute or two.

dude in jedi academy jaden pwns kyle i beta him without getting hit and jaden knows lightside and darkside force moves so does kyle but jaden as i posted in a difrent thread can not beat obi and if jaden can beat kyle obi wan will do

are we forgeting about reven herehe lead the jedi civil war enogh about obi wan reven would kill them in a matter of minutes he left the council shattered

darth reven could force strom and hit everyone around him if kyle almost dies in one to lighting on jediknight outcast 2 if you dont have lightsaber assualt and force strom hits above and reven uses 2lightsabers

Even Yoda was out for quite a while due to Sidious' lightning. Revan uses one lightsaber. By the way...:

dood mac wins bcuz hecan beet liek every1 at the sam time in bf2 i toally pwned empr palpatin greevus nd dookoo all at teh sam time and then i beet jeyngoh fet and anukin ez on live i beet asajjjj and greevus and dooku ad boba all atthe sam time so macee toalyypwns revun u noob

fine nerf herder noob

...Nice.

and mace dint pwn palp he acted weak as tho mace was trying to murder him and turn ani to the dark side 😠