Post Star Forge Revan & ROTS Obi-Wan vs. ROTS Mace & Kyle Katarn

Originally posted by zephiel7
It is rather funny that you ignore the fact that Bastila, despite being struck down thrice by Revan, rose up yet again empowered each time.
Also, Revan was already aware of the Star Forge's primary function. When Malak stated Revan was 'stupid' he was mentioning the ability of the Star Forge to empower a darksider with force energy. But of course Fohl, you can continue selecting those points from KOTOR that you want to see, instead of looking at what the game really states.

Oh wow. All we have seen the star forge do is healing people who were near defeat. Allright then. How does that make them "stronger in the force" ? Oh yes. It doesn't. If I can smack somebody one time and can use the force to fully replenish myself - what stops me from beating the same person down again ?

No thanks.

Clone Wars is bullshit. If Windu could defeat an army of droids with his bare hands, why didn't he just PWN all those droids in AOTC by himself?

Yes. Ignoring the source material is quite funny stuff. Don't argue what you don't know.

Um... your point? Yoda was caught of guard in that moment, and in their subsequent duel, deflected Sidious's lightning. Windu was not capable of reproducing that feat.
Also, it still does not diminish the sheer scale of Revan's storm. Neither does it support your argument, that somehow Windu can deflect Revan's lightning.

Lmao. Windu was confronted with force lightning from point black range while having his lightsaber in hand. Should he have dropped the saber to show you that he's possibly capable of blocking force lightning with his bare hands ? Dooku could do that and they are both considered to be almost equal.
And what "scale" of Revan's "storm" are you talking about ? Did somebody tell you that he "called lightning from the sky - in a radius of 2.5 kilometres" ? No ?

Ridiculous. If you only look at the back of KOTOR's cover, any dimwitted fool who possesses two functional organs called "eyes" can see that the "storm" comes from the fingertips. If you are going to be thickheaded about Revan's feat of calling lightning from sky, be my guest Fohl.

Yes. Because the visible force effects in KotoR are only there to show the player that the force is used. Since when does a force push create a visible force energy effect ? It doesn't in the movies - it does in KotoR. Ups. Or force choke anybody:

Did I miss the glowing around the neck of the multiple victims of Vader in the movies ? Obviously it's possible that the "victims" of the "Force Storm" ability in KotoR just perceive the lightning arches that come back from the sky and not the force energy coming from the hand of the user.

So killing more makes you stronger? I guess Darth Maul must be a ****ing god taking out the entirety of the Black Sun?

False analogy. Logical fallancy. If I can wipe out 500 people by snapping my fingers and you can do nothing compareable - are you more powerful. By the way: You really think Maul took down the entirety of the Black Sun at once ?

Explain how the Rakatan's were hyperbolyzing, especially when they recognize the appearance of conventional lightning attacks (the more civilized ones used lightning to defend their fortress from the primitive Rakatans). It is not too hard to distinguish a storm from some lightning coming from the fingertips.

Where do you get the "storm" from ? It's said that Revan "called lightning from the sky". Storm ? Oh my. For the rest see above.

How is it an assumption if there are witnesses who have seen the scouting party killed. If you want to argue the validity of this source, complain to Bioware, NOT to me.

You don't get it, do you ? The magnitude of Revan's lightning from the sky is not mentioned other than the comment he killed one scout party with it. This can be done with the Force Storm ability as it's shown in the games. This can be done by weather manipulation we see Kyp using in Leviathan. Obliterating more than 500 Stormtroopers clearly needs some large scale lightning attack.

Wow, how much do you need to know about force powers to identify lightning as coming from the sky and not from the "fingertips?" Your rebuttals are becoming ridiculous fast.

See above. Game mechanics.

LOL, wtf? How f*cking difficult, Fohl, is it to recognize lightning coming from the sky and not the fingertips?

Again: See above.

If I started stomping on 100 ants with my feet alone, does it mean I can win in a fight against someone with a bazooka who decided (maybe stupidly) to blast one ant?

False analogy. Logical fallancy. Imagine the space needed to fit 500 Stormtroopers in it. Now: If Revan used something of a similar magnitude he should have wiped out some nice part of the Rakatan island shown in KotoR instead of one scout party.

Right Fohl, you have seen Sidious lightning by ROTS in the movies (highest authority) and it is nothing like a storm of lightning bolts originating from the sky.

We see force choke and force push not having visible effects in the movies while they do have in KotoR. That tells you what ? And obviously an ability aimed against one target doesn't look like an ability used against multiple targets because it doesn't make any sense.
A force storm also doesn't look like "lightning called from the sky" but does have the appearance of a "wormhole".

Lets just take a look at KOTOR 2 kid. The Jedi Exile, when he discovers Echani precognition not only has the benefit of his jedi precognition, but also that of his newly found Echani precog as well. You can see, (although slightly gameplay based) that what happens is that the Exile's wisdom modifier stacks with the AC bonus granted from the Jedi precognition. Thus the abilities are synergistic of one another.

Now I am not trying to bring in gameplay into this, but it is easily observed that Echani precognition stacks with Jedi precognition. Now if you want an example of how this translates into the argument: I can sense an attack 30 seconds before it happens. Since I have Jedi precognition, I can sense it say, 40s before it happened. Echani precognition makes me even more aware to what happens around me, giving me an added awarenesss bringing it up to 50s for me to react how I want to an attack . The two types of preconition are described as working together to make the Jedi even more aware.

You are trying to establish game mechanics as canon against common sense. The highest level of Echani precog was granted the user the ability to predict wars. The highest ability of Jedi precog obviously enabled the user to look into the future over millenia (see Kreia). Precognition is simply the "knowledge of a future event or situation through extrasensory means". So two forms of precognition can't "stack". And if you really want to assume this Brianna should be unbeatable once she became a Jedi (being the only source the Exile can learn Echani precog from and having Jedi precog) and still she gets her ass handed to Kreia.

You are missing the point entirely. The most important fact is his state of mind. He is not going to try and take down the opponent (using the force offensively), but prolong the duel. It doesn't matter how much stronger Kyle is, it is still going to take him some time to cut through Kenobi's defence.

No. You are missing the point entirely. The most important fact is that Obi-Wan isn't able to defend against force attacks from superior force users hence Mace and Kyle are clearly both able to throw him around like a ragdoll if they want to do so.

I'm sorry, but your NJO and PT "gods" are not going to survive this battle.

Nope.

Originally posted by Borbarad
The events happening after the destruction of the Star Forge don't belong to the Jedi Civil War any longer. Got it now ?

It did ? Name some ! The only planets that were kind of "destroyed" are Telos (almost complete surface destruction), Dantooine (surrounding of the Academy) and Malachor V.

During the Clone Wars you have some planets pretty much wasted by the Dark Reaper, some colonies exterminated by "swamp gas", several planets with CIS HQ's almost glassed (like Muunilinst). You have the nice "Bassadro Massacre" on Coruscant, the ruling families of Ord Cestus wiped from existance by orbital bombardment, the complete surface destruction of Parcellus Minor. The live on Honoghr was pretty much wiped from existance when the Gahenna carrying a load of a deadly toxin crashed on the planet. We have multiple planets taken down by Stone Mites. Grievous melted the crust of Humbarine and unleashed the Loedorvian Brain Plague in the Weemell Sector killing almost the entire human sector population.

See above. And my point about what Revan did was that - unlike the Clone Wars - the Jedi Civil War was not a war that was coined by the usage of brute force.

What does the current amount of Jedi in the Galaxy at Kreia's time have to do with history ? Sion and Nihilus believed that they have killed all but one Jedi (the Exile) and they were obviously wrong.
And if we are at that topic: We know that Bastilla survived. They kill off all Jedi and "forget" the greatest threat ? If Bastilla managed to do this it's quite plausible that Juhani and Jolee survived too. We know that Vima Sunrider (possibly Nomi herself too) also survived (since a direct descendant is alive in the PT era), we know that at least one member of the Baas family survived (Bodo as descendant alive in the PT) and I doubt the Sith were able to lay hands on Thon.

The amount of surviving Jedi is simply unknown.

See above and stop boring me. If somebody relies on "stealth tactics" rather than brute force I doubt this can really be called a "war".

Anakin was cocky and therefore was defeated. What about citing examples that actually fit if you want to argue with me ?

You see Revan beating Dooku based on what exactly ?

I think that I already deduced that Dooku > Malak. So ?

Oh please.
I've said that Malak was far away from being one of "the most powerful Jedi had produced in the last centuries" (see the TOTJ era people) and for lightsaber combat there is still the damn fact that the PT people trained with that weapon from infancy on. Are Malak or Revan shown to beat opponents on the level of Jedi Council Members without using the force - if not Dooku > them. Are Revan or Malak shown to have mastered more than four styles and invented a new one ? No ? Mace Windu > them.

The entire point is that Revan for almost a year was wiped from his memory. Than he "recovered" his memory during his second quest to find the Star Maps. How would he be much more powerful than he was before ? He went through basic Jedi training - which he had done before. He again searched and found the Star Maps - which he had done before.
I'm not questioning that the SF gave some additional abilities to Malak but by sheer logic it obviously didn't much.

No, because facts = facts. And I know you're going to chuckle at that one too.

And for the LAST time, it is quite clear that the lightning comes from Revan's hands, goes up, and arcs back down at his enemies.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Except for the fact that Kreia mentioned that the Jedi Civil War resulted in the near extinction of the Jedi, so the Jedi Civil War would be before the destruction of the Starforge. Stop mentioning the events after the destruction because I'm not.

What do you call "near extinction" then ? Atris said that there were hundrets of Jedi on Katarr and (due to the fact that some force lines weren't extinct) we know that even this weren't all the Jedi left after the Jedi Civil War.

Again I ask you, where is it specified that the Clone Wars were the most devastating war up to date? Because as I recall, the JEdi Civil War left billions dead, planets in rubble, and the Jedi order near extinction, which was a little more effective than the Jedi Purge.

The statement is in the NEC as far as I recall. Even if not. Did you just read what I typed down ? The Loedorvian Brain Plague wiped almost the entire human population of one of the Core Sectors from existance. A "sector" in Star Wars consists of at least 50 inhabitable planatary systems (so at least 50 planets) which are normally rather dense populated (see Coruscant with 1 Trillion beings on it - normal Core Worlds like Corellia still have 7 billion inhabitants).
Now if you assume that those world have an average population matching that of earth (6 billion people) that single action would have wiped out almost 300 billion beings.

And the Sith Empire under Revan simply didn't have the needed weapons to cause destruction on a scale that we've seen happening in the Clone Wars. I mean what - look at Taris when Malak commands Saul to "wipe that pathetic planet from the Galaxy". Even the hangar with the Ebon Hawk takes multiple turbolaser hits. Compare that to a this picture of a Star-Destroyer (which were introduced during the Clone Wars) carrying out a Base Delta Zero command:

With that sort of fire power nobody should have escaped from Taris and nobody should have survived on Telos - still both things did obviously happen.

Wasn't coined by the usage of brute force? Care to explain that? Or should I mention Malak laying waste to Dantooine and Telos just to find some Jedi?

Telos was specifically targetted because it was the "last retreat" for the Jedi at this time so this was a symbolic action to show the Jedi that there is no place were they can hide. Still many people on Telos did survive. On Dantooine Malak just attacked the Academy rather then glassing the entire planet and we again have survivors here.

And given that Revan prefered "stealth tactics over brute force" the "war" he was leading was most likely not coined by brute force which is bolstered by the fact that we know precisely no planet that was simply glassed completely by Revan and Malak. You really want to compare this to the armies of the CIS and Republic who both used weapons of Mass Destruction to render entire planets uninhabitable - even for future generations ?

LOL.. If I'm boring you then stop responding with bullshit. And apparently you are anaware of certain concepts such as an "invisible" or "stealth war". Not that it has anything to do with the Jedi Civil War, which was clear to everyone but you to be a war of devastating proportions. But arguing with facts is fun huh?!

It was clearly not even coming close to the Clone Wars !

I guess Yoda was cocky, Mace was cocky, and Dooku were cocky too huh?

False analogies. Logical fallacies. Shall I explain the concept again ?
The "strength" of a Jedi in terms of combat is determined by:
a) potential / talent for force use / lightsaber action
b) actual training time
c) actual combat experience
d) other stuff (artifacts, personal limitations etc.)

I did just state that individual X being superior in all categories compared to individual Y will most likely bring individual Y down. Examples: Dooku VS Obi-Wan, Mace vs Asajj, Sidious vs Maul (before TPM). Yet none of the examples you have listed did fit that concept.

Logical deduction.. Normal Malak=Dooku... Revan>Empowered Malak.. Revan>>Dooku

Oh yea, with your "omg he had 80 years of training he MUST be better than Malak" logic. Right..

Again. Just for you.

a)
Dooku is stated to have been one of the most powerful force users the Order had produced over the last centuries meaning the only persons superior to him in the PT might be Yoda, Mace, Anakin (potential) and Sidious. And then he became even more powerful by joining the Dark Side. Yoda even thinks that Dooku was the temples most gifted student (putting him above Mace).
Malak in the contrary is always descriped as being beyond Revan in terms of force powers and actually what we've seen from him (torturing a helpless Bastilla with force lightning, killing the two Jedi on the Star Forge with choke / lightning) isn't really that great. How is that compareable to Dooku who took the likes of Obi-Wan (ROTS), Anakin (AotC) Sora Bulq and Asajj Ventress out easily with force attacks ?

Then we have lightsaber skills. Dooku mastered the "ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat" to an extend that he was able to overcome Council Members without using the force himself and only Yoda being superior to him in terms of lightsaber combat. Dooku was also the Orders head instructor for advanced lightsaber combat (meaning anything beyond form I) and it's even stated that he was able to hold his own against three or four lightsaber wielding opponents.
How is Malak compareable ? From his movements Malak might be a Makashi practioneer but, in contrary to Dooku, he didn't have decades to perfect his style and I doubt that he did possess Dooku's extensive knowledge on the lightsaber forms and their weaknesses (see ROTS novel again). Aside of that he was just the second best in an Order that pretty much excluded Jedi Masters and Sith War Veterans like Vrook or talented lightsaber wielders like Kavar.

b)
Unlike all Jedi in prior eras the PT Jedi were trained from infancy on and that should give them the edge handling lightsabers and force powers.

If you just have a look at the description of the Master - Padawan relation given in the ROTS novels (Obi-Wan + Anakin) it states that the two spend several thousand hours of practicing lightsaber combat against each other. Given that Dooku trained at least two Padawans + Dooku + his Dark Acolytes his "training" time can be summed up to several thousand hours easily + practice fights happening because of his position in the Order.
For real combat action: Dooku faced Yoda twice, Mace Windu, Asajj Ventress, Obi-Wan + Anakin (together), Tholme and Sora Bulq (together).
Again: How is Malak compareable. For all we know Malak just personally fought Revan (lost), Bastilla (had at least some problems) and Kavar (who went to kill Malak and escaped) and whoever cut his jaw off.

We don't know if Revan or Malak beat people without the force, because all you have is a video game. But I guess Dooku>Yoda because he beat people without the force? Astounding logic Nai. And apparently Mace>Luke because he knew four styles too? Again Nai, your logic is a joke in this situation, please stop.

Why is it so hard to simple read my arguments instead of intentionally missunderstanding them ? It is the combination of more potential (for all we know), far greater training time, far more battle experience and putting most efforts into mastering lightsaber combat that puts Mace and Dooku above Malak and Revan and not just one of that aspects.
And I'm pretty sure that when Dooku and Yoda decide to fight without any force assistance, Dooku would win - because Yoda would only hardly be able to move. And I'm also pretty sure Mace would crush Luke before Luke discovered the Chu'unthor.

You have no point Nai because Malak himself stated Revan is more powerful now than he was as a DLOTS, so stop trying to point that out for whatever reason.

The point is that you are trying to pass an unknown as argument. For all we know Revan's "additional power" and the "SF effect" were just minor increasements. Want to compare this to the Valley of the Jedi which power would turn it's wielder to "a creature such as the universe has never seen. A supernova of stars in a fleeting thought. The eradication of life from a star system in a whisper..."
And given that Kyle first defeated Jerec who had absorbed some nice amounts of power from the Valley, and later absorbed another part of it's power himself I'm almost inclined to say that he can win this fight on his own by schooling Obi-Wan in seconds and then destroy Revan.

So, as I've said before and will say again: There is no reason to argue this further because of the mere reason that Kyle would WTFdestroy Obi-Wan no matter if Revan is above, below or just "in the same league" with Mace.