Originally posted by Validus
Almost every top tier/herald level hero has feats that put them beyond that level.
Actually, not true.
Superman is the only character that comes to mind, thats been shown thrashing multiple actual Gods solo, and beaten a tried and true Skyfather.
Heavens Ladder and other mondo feats are good, but i've never seen any character beat actual Gods, simultaneously.
Now if they were all as powerful as Balder, it wouldn't be worth noting.
But they were shown as decent threats, and worthy of the title of Godly.
Sometimes i do think Superman is a cut above, ala Jelly.
Panel evidence supports this notion.
Fact people.......Superman will more than likely beat the ass of your favorite character, as long as he's another hero.
And on panel feats legitly solidify his status as top of the barrel.
Originally posted by Validus
I'm not arguing that Superman won't be depicted as beating everyone's ass but I am saying that every top tier or at least every notable top tier has feats that put them above that level. Even Wonder Woman has beaten Gods and nobody gives her any credit at all.
But has she beaten multiple gods at once?? Superman has.
I never shirk on credit, at least i hope i don't.
I rate top tiers like this. everybody starts off at 0%. But feats and low showings raise their overall average.
Superman by default, will have more feats and less low showings than any other character in DC. Its in the Superman writers club clause.
So that effectively raises his average.
Black Adam may have a 88% average overall.
MM has a 75% average, though it shouldn't be so.
Superman has at least, a 95% average.
So imo, he is a cut above.
WW has a 85% average.
Originally posted by UniOmni
Herald level doesn't exist.
Cuz Silver Surfer is a herald, but not all heralds are the Surfer.Same for skyfather.
Not a level, since Zeus isn't as powerful as Odin. Its a title.Skyfathers should be head and shoulders above the rest of their pantheons.
Thats all thats required in my eyes.To Yahmy. Does this mean Superman is possibly skyfather level??Since he does have skyfather level feats??Like beating an actual skyfather, and thrashing teams of gods at once?
Last time i said Supes was on a Skyfather level i was slated by everyone, but he does have Skyfather feats. IMO he doesn't have the versatility to beat either the Surfer or any skyfather (Except Darksied), He is definitely on a Herald level
Originally posted by UniOmni
Same for GL?
Based on their best showings, Hal and Kyle are maybe on a Skyfather level. Now thats a comment that is going to piss a lot of people off.
Originally posted by Validus
She's triggered supernovas and black holes which in turn destroyed the solar system but never through her own energy.
Destroying a plannet taxes even the Surfer to the max. I know he has created black holes, but black holes can vary dramatically in size, the smallest ones are the size of electrons. 🙂
Originally posted by Validus
A cut above? Just like when Jelly tries that argument it falls apart because those guys are shown as his near equal way too much. A cut above would be guys like Fate and Strange (no prep), Genis-Vell, and Bronze Age Superman.
I totally agree .... but Uni, i think that power system is very cool way of illustrating power levels. Can you PM me if you got anymore idea of how a sytem like that would work.
Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Last time i said Supes was on a Skyfather level i was slated by everyone, but he does have Skyfather feats. IMO he doesn't have the versatility to beat either the Surfer or any skyfather (Except Darksied), He is definitely on a Herald levelBased on their best showings, Hal and Kyle are maybe on a Skyfather level. Now thats a comment that is going to piss a lot of people off.
To be honest, i was only playing the DA.
But like Vally said, every top tier has moments/showings that up their average.
Superman isn't the only one who has that ability.
But its not his average showing. Its not his everyday power levels.
Thats the fact of the matter.
Same with the GLs.
Kyle with the Heavens Ladder feat, and the Big Bang stuff, would be considered damn near abstract level.
But he's not, cuz he can't do that on a whim.
And for the record, Superman doesn't have what it takes to beat Darkseid.
OR any skyfather at this point in time.
He does, have the writers in pocket, and they have tools that Uxas cannot prevail against.
Supes could probably be called herald level. He could go toe to toe with any of the hearalds and hold his own , and maybe beat a couple. Any herald that fought smart. Not like a dumbass, could hand supes his ass though. Exploiting his weaknesses and such. So supes could be classified is a low leveal herald. Plus he doesnt manipulate any energy. Yes he is strong and durable and fast, but all his skill set puts him at a low level herald.
Im looking at this power wise. Not "oh - he beat skyfathers, and darkseid, ect"
Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
Destroying a plannet taxes even the Surfer to the max. I know he has created black holes, but black holes can vary dramatically in size, the smallest ones are the size of electrons. 🙂
Actually, thats not so. Surfer recently destroyed a planet to prove a point. With minimal effort.
And i was looking through some of the probes stuff from OWAW, and it took many of them to simply destroy one planet. Weird.
Originally posted by Inhuman
Supes could probably be called herald level. He could go toe to toe with any of the hearalds and hold his own , and maybe beat a couple. Any herald that fought smart. Not like a dumbass, could hand supes his ass though. Exploiting his weaknesses and such. So supes could be classified is a low leveal herald. Plus he doesnt manipulate any energy. Yes he is strong and durable and fast, but all his skill set puts him at a low level herald.
Im looking at this power wise. Not "oh - he beat skyfathers, and darkseid, ect"
Originally posted by UniOmni
Actually, thats not so. Surfer recently destroyed a planet to prove a point. With minimal effort.
Did that happen in Anhilation ? Hasn't he had a power increase ?
Originally posted by UniOmni
And i was looking through some of the probes stuff from OWAW, and it took many of them to simply destroy one planet. Weird.
Its not that weird, infact when Superman performed his infamous planet moving stunt, everyone was very Suprised he had that kind of power. Infact most of his 'Cosmic Feats' have involved help from other characters. I still have him at Herald level, as i think he could punk the likes of Air Walker and Nova. Silver surfer is generally depicted as more powerful than the reast anyway.
Originally posted by Validus
In overall formidability and power he is herald level despite not being as versatile. Without giving every herald the benefit of doubt and saying they all have the same abilities, I would say Surfer and Stardust are the only ones who could really clean his clock.
Agreed .... I'd also have Capatain Atom, the M.M, Kyle and Hal in that category.
Well, to be back on topic, i reiterate that there is no true herald level, or skyfather level.
Only different levels of formidability within each title range.
But yeah, i do agree with Vally.
I see Stardust and Surfer as sure bets to beat his ass, while perhaps Firelord and Fallen One have the potential to stalemate him. Both need more feats.
MM imo, isn't in the range. His energy output isn't anywhere near the heralds range, imo.
Superman wouldn't be either, if not for the hv warming earth feat and the powering a planet sized ship showing.
MM should be able to thrash a fair bit of heralds though.
Firelord, Terrax, Nova, Redshift and Morg should all come up short against Jonn.
Firelord would have the best chance though.
IMO there are too many criss cross feats that hopelessly interwine what should be herald and skyfather levels.
Surfer, Superman, and GL are 3 great examples of this.
Surfer pisses me off because he pulls off things that Galactus should be doing, and to top it off, Galactus is shown jobbing most of the time needing SS help when together.
GL's can do anything they want according to their will. That says it all, and we've seen it...from low end to high end. Kyle didn't need a counterpart in DC 1M...why? Because he can basically do whatever he wants...how do you really upgrade that?
Superman. For someone with a deceptively simple powerset, he pulls off a lot of things that most of us think he shouldn't.
Originally posted by UniOmni
Well, to be back on topic, i reiterate that there is no true herald level, or skyfather level.Only different levels of formidability within each title range.
But yeah, i do agree with Vally.
I see Stardust and Surfer as sure bets to beat his ass, while perhaps Firelord and Fallen One have the potential to stalemate him. Both need more feats.
MM imo, isn't in the range. His energy output isn't anywhere near the heralds range, imo.
Superman wouldn't be either, if not for the hv warming earth feat and the powering a planet sized ship showing.
MM should be able to thrash a fair bit of heralds though.
Firelord, Terrax, Nova, Redshift and Morg should all come up short against Jonn.
Firelord would have the best chance though.
You've have hit the nail on the coffin !!! The problem is when everyone thinks Herald level, they think of Surfer and his various displays even though the other Heralds have not nearly been as formidable. When everyone says Skyfather level, they think of Odin punking Surfer and holding his own against Thanos. When you analyse other Skyfather performances you realise they have done little to suggest they are far beyond the JLA's finest. Take King Thor for example, he maxed out after remaking the moon, and was Ko'ed by a Nuke. And Superman put up a better fight against normal Thor than Zeus did. Bare in mind that King Thor and Zeus are both considered powerful Skyfathers. 🙂
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
IMO there are too many criss cross feats that hopelessly interwine what should be herald and skyfather levels.Surfer, Superman, and GL are 3 great examples of this.
Surfer pisses me off because he pulls off things that Galactus should be doing, and to top it off, Galactus is shown jobbing most of the time needing SS help when together.
GL's can do anything they want according to their will. That says it all, and we've seen it...from low end to high end. Kyle didn't need a counterpart in DC 1M...why? Because he can basically do whatever he wants...how do you really upgrade that?
Superman. For someone with a deceptively simple powerset, he pulls off a lot of things that most of us think he shouldn't.
Agreed. 🙂
Originally posted by R.O.T. Yahman
You've have hit the nail on the coffin !!! The problem is when everyone thinks Herald level, they think of Surfer and his various displays even though the other Heralds have not nearly been as formidable. When everyone says Skyfather level, they think of Odin punking Surfer and holding his own against Thanos. When you analyse other Skyfather performances you realise they have done little to suggest they are far beyond the JLA's finest. Take King Thor for example, he maxed out after remaking the moon, and was Ko'ed by a Nuke. And Superman put up a better fight against normal Thor than Zeus did. Bare in mind that King Thor and Zeus are both considered powerful Skyfathers. 🙂
Do you mean "nail on the head"? Or nailed the coffin shut?
😮
Just wanted to know.
But Odin isn't widely considered the most powerful skyfather in either company due to that stuff.
It's the galaxy destroying and multiverse shaking that nominates him.
And Zeus had the fight well in hand.
Didn't blink to Mjnollir to the face, and supposedly fought for months.
I view the Zeus/Thor fight like i see the Thanos/Odin fight.
A decent stamina showing for Thor/Thanos, but the battle was clearly in the skyfathers hand.
Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
IMO there are too many criss cross feats that hopelessly interwine what should be herald and skyfather levels.Surfer, Superman, and GL are 3 great examples of this.
Surfer pisses me off because he pulls off things that Galactus should be doing, and to top it off, Galactus is shown jobbing most of the time needing SS help when together.