Originally posted by Soleran
Nope which is why I also specified the [b]small employeer.More specifically to the point I CHOOSE to not work for someone for minimum wage or anywhere near that amount of money. However lets say we are a small employeer we are a daycare! All of our people make minimum wage five dollars an hour and all of a sudden it goes up to 6.50 an hour.
Where does the money come from? That means the daycare's costs go up over 2,000 dollars(assuming 35 hours a week from each employee) a month (minus the increase in payroll tax's the employer has to pay to employee those people.) Now add health benefits, vacation time etc etc did the cost of daycare go up to offset these costs? Probably not in the short run so what happens? Alot of people get laid off and either cannot find employement or they go on social security etc.
You DESTROY the small employer economy and get alot of folks fired. Sounds awesome doesn't it, lets raise minimum wage (wrong!) [/B]
so, lets drop the wage to $2.00 an hour and EVERYONE will be employed (and starve)
you do realise that not everyone can just 'choose' to make more than minimum wage? im sorry, but this whole economic doomsday scenario of raising minimum wage has been argued with every single raise in minimum wage.
Originally posted by SoleranHmm well apparently approximately 5% of the U.S. workforce is comprised of illegal immigrants, at least what is reported. While 13% (in 2003) of the workforce earned between $5-8/hour.
no, but slightly comical none the less.It's also conversations like these that make me have disdain for some "liberal" (read socialist) ideologies as beliefs.
So I guess not "mostly" but a large amount nonetheless. Unless one wants to believe illegal immigrants are earning huge sums of money/hour.
Originally posted by PVS
so, lets drop the wage to $2.00 an hour and EVERYONE will be employed (and starve)
Since this is so much nonsence we'll just walk right around this hunk of shit
you do realise that not everyone can just 'choose' to make more than minimum wage? im sorry, but this whole economic doomsday scenario of raising minimum wage has been argued with every single raise in minimum wage.
Yup I agree that somethings will change and markets will fold that cannot handle the economic burden. Not everyone deserves to make more then minimum wage either so thats not my concern. My concern is with the undue burden placed on the SMALL EMPLOYER we'll say under 20 fully employed compared to the benefit of 1.50$ more an hour.
That one daycare I mentioned alone with fica tax and the increase would have its cost go up 27,000 dollars a year. Do that to 10 business's and now its 270,000 a year etc etc. Raising minimum wage is a weak link to "fixing" the economy.
Originally posted by Soleran
Since this is so much nonsence we'll just walk right around this hunk of shitYup I agree that somethings will change and markets will fold that cannot handle the economic burden. Not everyone deserves to make more then minimum wage either so thats not my concern. My concern is with the undue burden placed on the [b]SMALL EMPLOYER
we'll say under 20 fully employed compared to the benefit of 1.50$ more an hour.That one daycare I mentioned alone with fica tax and the increase would have its cost go up 27,000 dollars a year. Do that to 10 business's and now its 270,000 a year etc etc. Raising minimum wage is a weak link to "fixing" the economy. [/B]
Well, if the minimum wage hike is going to shut down the small buisness owner, then you'd think all those big buisness lobbyists would support a hike in the minimum wage. But it isn't. The reason you've been led to believe that the wage increase is going to bankrupt the small buisness owner is that it's good for the political system in this country to get you to believe that the American way is still mom and pop corner shops where you can get a nickle coal and a slice of resh apple pie for a dime. Well, those bullshit days are over. If you up the minimum wage by a buck and a half, it's going to cost Wal-Mart with it's hundreds of thousands of employees a hell of a lot more than it's going to cost the little guy with 20 employees. And if he can't afford that hike, he's not operating in the black anyway.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Well, if the minimum wage hike is going to shut down the small buisness owner, then you'd think all those big buisness lobbyists would support a hike in the minimum wage. But it isn't. The reason you've been led to believe that the wage increase is going to bankrupt the small buisness owner is that it's good for the political system in this country to get you to believe that the American way is still mom and pop corner shops where you can get a nickle coal and a slice of resh apple pie for a dime.
Now after reading this I hope you have something to plop down as proof to substaniate your claims. I can tell you the cost because I work with small business's everyday. I know how much it costs them do you? I can talk about tons of cases of small employers and the real impacts they have, can you?
Well, those bullshit days are over. If you up the minimum wage by a buck and a half, it's going to cost Wal-Mart with it's hundreds of thousands of employees a hell of a lot more than it's going to cost the little guy with 20 employees.
The first thing that will happen employee benefits will disappear, then you could come back and whine about something else🙂 A cost shift will occur and the little guy won't be any better for it.
In a cost benefit analysis, I'm sure it looks good for the big guy and bad for the little guy. That's because the big guy has a hell of a lot more money than the little guy. But, thew cost of operating would be overwhelming for the little guy if the big guy wasn't making it that way. How is a 20 man operation going to compete with a Wal-Mart?
I'm not "whining" about anything. I'm looking at it realistically.
What's shutting down more small buisness owners operations? The minimum wage, or Wal-Mart? Get over your sick fasciantion with the little guy...he doesn't exist anymore. And by all means, wow us with your facts....I'd love to know what you do for the little guy.
For soma reason this reminds me of the Roman's back in Republican times. To serve in the army your average pleb had to be above the "poverty line." However as the Republic went on more and more fell below it, thus the manpower of the army started to drop. Now, instead of restructuring the Roman economy that had, for some time, been shifting towards benefiting the small land holding aristocracy at the detriment to the masses, the Romans simply lowered the "poverty line"...
Genius of course. The poor weren't getting any more money, but plenty were now no longer classified as poverty stricken, and thus could be recruited into the army.
What I find ironic are people who complain about poor people being a drain on our economy because our taxes pay for everything they get, while wanting to keep the minimum wage down. And let's look at that word, "minimum"...sure, living in a house with no airconditioning and over due bills won't kill you, but you live that way because you live at the minimum standards of living.
A cost shift will occur and the little guy won't be any better for it.
The little guy I spoke of here was the employee with the new "pay raise" not the small employer. Cost shifting will be first to overcome the new increase should it be required.
And by all means, wow us with your facts....
If you didn't think that the cost past on to the small employer in the daycare example is out of whack then there isn't alot that can be done for you, I'm guessing you don't own a business either.
I'd love to know what you do for the little guy.
Legislation for one, more specifically how it affects the cost of employee benefits(health etc) and availabilty from 2 life groups to 3000 life groups. So I feel fairly confident when I look at cost to benefit of wages and what it potentially will do for these groups.
What is your area of expertise/experience again?
Well, Soleran, let me tell you something.
In Ontario, Canada, the minium wage is $7.45 an hour. With conversion, that equals roughly around $6.65 in the US. We have alot of small business and we still have a higher min wage and they dont go down the drain.
So tell me, why would an increase of $1.65 really going to hurt small businesses when companies in Canada are doing quite well.
I think its a human right to allow people to eat and have shelter, so 5 bucks an hour wont do that considering inflation is raising (evidence in Canada where min wage has increase by .45 in past year or so)
And really, you dont have to look out for min wage to destroy small businesses, you have to look for Wal-Mart who lower the prices to the point of undermining the small mom and pop shop.
Originally posted by Soleran
Legislation for one, more specifically how it affects the cost of employee benefits(health etc) and availabilty from 2 life groups to 3000 life groups. So I feel fairly confident when I look at cost to benefit of wages and what it potentially will do for these groups.What is your area of expertise/experience again?
WOW! You mean, health care is an issue for those on minimum wage?!!!! I seem to recall having that conversation with you too....and you had an issue with socializing medicine like they have in Canada! So, which way do you want it? You gotta give some where. Make health care affordable for everyone or raise the minimum wage! WTF!
Do tell us your "expertise". What roll do you play in legislation? I've been the head of a department where I had to hire and fire people, set pay scales and get them subsidized benefits and health care. Does that make me an expert, no. But I do have some measure of logic.
Originally posted by Smasandian
And really, you dont have to look out for min wage to destroy small businesses, you have to look for Wal-Mart who lower the prices to the point of undermining the small mom and pop shop.
Thank you for telling me that! MY point isn't that I am raging against increasing minimum wage, I said this on the first page of this discussion.
I am against raising minimum wage because it's an easy target for the layman as the lowest common denominator. How about we give small business owners a tax break for whatever they contribute to employee health benefits (realizing they have to contribute at least 50%.) Now that looks like it does something rather then increase minimum wage for popularity contests that oh by the way won't change where you are at in the income bracket anyway.
Not to mention if you're living on minimum wage thats the point, you're living on the minimum wage, time to make some changes to get away from that income.
they do get some tax break still however my point is to reward the small business guy for taking care of the employee without hitting up for double the penalty with a miniscule pay increase that isn't going to have an effective "change" on the recipient.
If they are minimum wage earners they more then likely also qualify for state income assistance or federal.