Despite all the various points of view, I think we can all agree that the biggest hurdle in decent healthcare in the US are the pharmaceutical companies. Just sit down and watch 15 minutes of television and I'm sure you'll come across a disease you have all the symptoms of, all of which can be treated by some largely untested drug.
Originally posted by PVS
your mentallity of avoiding any turbulance in the economy whatsoever at the cost of ignoring the human condition at home warrants the same smilie. not to mention that your train of thought naturally leads to what i posted, and at its extreme ends: slavery. the sky is not falling and you are wrong to act like it is. the economy will have to adjust, some people will get laid off, but you want me to believe the next great depression is coming because businesses will be forced to give more livable wages for services rendered.
No its your extremist responses that I look to avoid because they are what if's. However based on an example I used to illustrate minimum wage I at least have an idea of what it can possible do and cost and examine the benefit.
Raising minimum wage isn't going to fix the income problem of the low earner and it has the possiblity of hurting small employers. Thats all, as I said also in a later post I think bypassing on minimum wage increases and instead incenting small business owners to do something would generate a faster and greater response. As it stands raise minimum wage we aren't going to see people taking home more money or benefits however we see a cost shift and a decrease in work hours benefits etc etc.....................
and will you be equally weary the next time minimum wage is raised to something even slightly MORE livable
maybe, especially if I don't think its worth while.
Despite all the various points of view, I think we can all agree that the biggest hurdle in decent healthcare in the US are the pharmaceutical companies. Just sit down and watch 15 minutes of television and I'm sure you'll come across a disease you have all the symptoms of, all of which can be treated by some largely untested drug.
I am not a fan of pharma companies either.
Health Care System is a shit subject...just wanted to say that.
I agree
Originally posted by Soleran
No its your extremist responses...
Originally posted by PVS
im sorry, but i cant get past this to address anything else
i suggest lack of panic for one of many simple adjustments in wages, all of which have not damaged the economy, and thats extremist. you declare that the economy will be so damaged by this, small business will crumble, women and babies will starve in the streets etc....i suppose thats a moderate view?
I didn't say the economy as a whole, I said as it would affect small employers. Simply raising someone's pay isn't nec going to help minimum wage earners take home more money when the govt decrees increase's in minimum wages.
Its simply going to make small employers and such cost shift the expense or reduce hours etc. Raising minimum wage as I said before isn't a viable fix for low income who would typically also qualify for state and federal income help. Its looking at the lowest common denominator and getting people excited about nothing essentially, in my opinion.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Despite all the various points of view, I think we can all agree that the biggest hurdle in decent healthcare in the US are the pharmaceutical companies. Just sit down and watch 15 minutes of television and I'm sure you'll come across a disease you have all the symptoms of, all of which can be treated by some largely untested drug.
Originally posted by Soleran
I didn't say the economy as a whole, I said as it would affect small employers. Simply raising someone's pay isn't nec going to help minimum wage earners take home more money when the govt decrees increase's in minimum wages.Its simply going to make small employers and such cost shift the expense or reduce hours etc. Raising minimum wage as I said before isn't a viable fix for low income who would typically also qualify for state and federal income help. Its looking at the lowest common denominator and getting people excited about nothing essentially, in my opinion.
Well, then keep the minimum wage where it is and reverse the effects of inflation. Or is that more punishing big buisness simply for being big?
You see what I'm saying? All of your perspectives might seem logical to you, but they simply give no quater and expect everyone else to do so. Keep healthcare privatized, stagnate the minimum wage, allow big buisness to drive up the price of living. But, as you said before, cut taxes. That seems to be the conservative idea of appeasing teh masses. Not that poor people pay a ton of taxes from which to get relief.
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Well, then keep the minimum wage where it is and reverse the effects of inflation. Or is that more punishing big buisness simply for being big?
Crack down on big business, I was only talking about the possible effects on small business. The dynamics change considerably in larger employers. Once again though raise the cost of doing business and benefits change, vacation etc for any size employer group, will change to offset the cost.
You see what I'm saying? All of your perspectives might seem logical to you, but they simply give no quater and expect everyone else to do so. Keep healthcare privatized, stagnate the minimum wage, allow big buisness to drive up the price of living. But, as you said before, cut taxes. That seems to be the conservative idea of appeasing teh masses. Not that poor people pay a ton of taxes from which to get relief. [/B]
My perspectives are also based on the region of the USA where I work. I lived in Northern Virginia for a long time and I thought differently when I lived there because the economics of the region were different from where I am located now.
I said cut tax's for the small employer (under 20.) I am not overly concerned with big business which is where most of your discussion is aimed at.
Originally posted by Soleran
Crack down on big business, I was only talking about the possible effects on small business. The dynamics change considerably in larger employers. Once again though raise the cost of doing business and benefits change, vacation etc for any size employer group, will change to offset the cost.My perspectives are also based on the region of the USA where I work. I lived in Northern Virginia for a long time and I thought differently when I lived there because the economics of the region were different from where I am located now.
I said cut tax's for the small employer (under 20.) I am not overly concerned with big business which is where most of your discussion is aimed at.
So you think that the exceptions made for small buisness won't be challenged by big buisness? And who's going to win in such a case?
Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Despite all the various points of view, I think we can all agree that the biggest hurdle in decent healthcare in the US are the pharmaceutical companies. Just sit down and watch 15 minutes of television and I'm sure you'll come across a disease you have all the symptoms of, all of which can be treated by some largely untested drug.
I partly agree with you on this one. I think there is a cottage victimization industry in this country that cuts across several industries. The marketing idea behind some of these pharmaceutical companies is to make the American public discover the heretofore unrealized fact that they are in desperate need of their drugs...for any variety of ailments. The culture at large promotes this mindset as well, and seems to promote the idea that Americans are sick, slovenly people who are a stone's throw away from utter physical ruin and/or death. Unfortunately, this is a sort of a self-fulfilling prophesy as more and more Americans take less responsibility for their personal health, stop trying to take care of themselves through proper diet and exercise, and then try to use pills as a stopgap to stave off that next heart attack and/or bout of erectile dysfunction. I, for one, would like to see a shift in the American mindset concerning personal health away from the appalling willingness to self-brand oneself a victim.
Actually, I would award the number one culprit in high medical costs in this country to the insurance companies--and those who don't know how to use their coverage properly and/or are not afraid to defraud the American consumer. As a general rule of human nature, people will abuse what they perceive as "free." Low deductible coverages encourage people to go to the doctor regularly for non-emergency treatments. Insurance companies don't mind this, because they know they can ultimately recoup expenses from the premium holder in the form of higher rates. The hospitals love this mentality too, since they figure they can "sock it" to the insurance companies and charge exorbitant prices, since the actual patient will never see the real bill. The problem with this system, and will all types of blanket, low deductible plans, is that it discourages discretion and accountability in the selection and payment of services.
High premium insurance is affordable to almost anybody. Its lone "drawback" is that it actually forces you to only go to get treatment or surgery if its a dire emergency. Oh no! Isn't that what insurance should be for anyway? Catastrophic events? Unless you're elderly, have special conditions, or have young children, I would venture to say that a high-decutable plan would fit everybody's realistic needs. Minor sickness can be addressed by paying out of pocket. It's cheaper than paying the higher price for a low deductible plan!
People need to be honest with themselves. Nothing is free. Nationalized care would be mucho expensive and wouldn't necessarily provide better service--in all likelihood, overall service would decline. As with most things, I believe the best and most efficient way to create effective service and care for people is to give the market free reign. Big insurance and the near universal belief in low-deductible coverages has allowed a pricing system to grow in place that is not sensitive to real world conditions. Introduce more personal accountability on the patient side, and watch prices come down! Health care providers would be forced to accommodate a more budget-minded consumer who, in the absence of low prices, would fail to avail themselves of the service.
Originally posted by PVS
so, lets drop the wage to $2.00 an hour and EVERYONE will be employed (and starve)you do realise that not everyone can just 'choose' to make more than minimum wage? im sorry, but this whole economic doomsday scenario of raising minimum wage has been argued with every single raise in minimum wage.
PVS, you're arguing from the assumption that prices are arbitrarily set from on high and that they do not reflect real supply/demand conditions.
Unskilled labor is just like any other commodity. From the employer's perspective, nothing differentiates one unskilled laborer from the next. If one quits, the employer can merely go and find another one. In short, unskilled labor is cheap because anyone can do it. The price should be allowed to reflect this fact. Why? Because artificially raising the price of an otherwise cheap commodity causes one of two things to happen--either the employer hires less unskilled help, or he goes to the black market to secure a cheaper commodity. In either scenario, the legal, unskilled laborer is left with less options.
The lesson to the unskilled laborer should be to acquire a skill to become more valuable to the market, not seek increased subsidization for remaining unskilled.
This observation brings up another point. The U.S. needs to create a better trade school infrastructure for itself, one that will allow high school graduates to learn valuable skills without having to matriculate at a university.
Originally posted by FeceMan
No, the conservative justification is that the system doesn't need to change. Just because some people go without doesn't mean that the system is broken.
I thought Jesus said to watch over every sheep, not just a select few....
Oh wait...Conseratives only pay attention to the discriminatory scriptures, they ignore the "unity" part of Jesus' teachings...my bad, I forgot. Sorry.....
The system is very much broken as long as someone suffers.....It is not impossible to provide everyone with proper health care. The United States treasury holds more than enough to supply healthcare and food for EVERY fkn citizen, and even some to spare for the illegals who sneak thier asses in here.....
60% of the United States wealth is possessed by the top 20%......the other 40 percent goes to the rest of us "Americans" who scramble and fight for the share......instead of just supplying each citizen with a fair share of security, a large # of ppl have to suffer and die, so the others can live comfortably......wow.....Conservatism is so positive ! 😱