Creation vs Evolution

Started by ushomefree221 pages
Originally posted by Bardock42
And what does the increase mean to you?

I am speaking in terms of "brand new" information that was "previously" non-existent.

Originally posted by Bardock42
How would you measure that?

Good question! DNA information is not measure. It is observed through microscopes (via the human eye).

Originally posted by Bardock42
I suppose you'd have to compare it to the parent generation...wouldn't a mutation of any kind be an addition to that genome though?

First, genetic mutations are merely errors of "pre-existing" genetic information. Genetic mutations does not produce new information. Genetic mutations are virtually identical to corrupted software.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I am sorry I can't just answer yes or no to your question, it is likely due to my lack of understanding of biology.

Hey man... no problem! Hopefully I can help.

Did I help at all?

Let me elaborate, please.

Originally posted by ushomefree
I am speaking in terms of "brand new" information that was "previously" non-existent.

I suppose the potential of every information is existent already.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Good question! DNA information is not measure. It is observed through microscopes (via the human eye).

I am still not sure how you would count this information.

Originally posted by ushomefree
First, genetic mutations are merely errors of "pre-existing" genetic information. Genetic mutations does not produce new information. Genetic mutations are virtually identical to corrupted software.

I believe that is not quite accurate. I know there are useful mutations and they do bring on new information not previously available in the type of organism. Obviously they were potentially in there all along as DNA is only made up of 4 pieces anyways.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Hey man... no problem! Hopefully I can help.

I am always happy to learn.

Originally posted by Bardock42
And what does the increase mean to you?

What I mean by the increase of an organism's genome, refers to the addition of "previously" non-existent genetic information. For example, let us pretend that an earth worm contains 10 bits of genetic information, I am implying "by increase," that the genome will sum to 11, 12, 13, 14, or 15. This does not occur in nature.

Originally posted by Bardock42
How would you measure that?

Again, very good question; but genetic information is not measured, much like you would in terms of value. Genetic information is "information." Each "bit," if I may state so plainly, is simply an "instruction." This has nothing to do with numeral values, in terms of cost and effect.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I suppose you'd have to compare it to the parent generation...wouldn't a mutation of any kind be an addition to that genome though?

As previously stated, genetic mutations are errors within and/or of "pre-existing" genetic information. Again, genetic mutations are virtually identical to corrupted computer software. If "bits" of computer software information becomes corrupt, it becomes useless; and it renders the software (over all, because all information compliments one another) dead. The same phenomena applies to genetic information with an organism's genome.

Nature does not have customer services and hot-lines in the event of errors and complications; and organisms do not have Norton Utility and re-write scripts to correct information in error. The organism simply dies and/or mutates. Either way, it is not beneficial. It spells doom.

In any case, genetic information in error does create/produce information that was "previously" non-existent. Genetic mutations are simply errors within existent information--a dead end.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I am sorry I can't just answer yes or no to your question, it is likely due to my lack of understanding of biology.

I appreciate your honesty, I failed to tell you that.

I will wait for your next response, I do not want to get ahead of you or myself.

Originally posted by ushomefree

[b]First question: in conjunction with countless theories regarding Darwinian theory--specifically Natural Selection--has the genome of an organism and/or single celled organism been shown to increase?
[/B]

oh, let me answer please!

I do not see why not, but let Bardock42 give the go-ahead.

I'm sure he wont mind, I'll make sure I don't ruin the surprise for him though

the answer is

Spoiler:
yes

LOL (ha ha ha)! OK.

whats the next question then?

This question is similar--in some respects--to the first regarding genome information; but this focuses on the organism as a whole: has a pre-existing organism ever been documented in nature evolving into--after billions of years or even a week, for the sake of argument--a new "previously" non-existent organism by means of random genetic mutation?

Think it over, if need be. I simply must go to bed. It is mid-night, and I have to get up in 4 hours for work! Ouch!!

lol, yes

EDIT: this is, forgiving the terrible wording of your questions

Give me an example, quickly! I am brushing my teeth (ha ha ha)!

thats not a yes/no question... :/

Originally posted by ushomefree
Okay Shaky... I will try and keep that in mind. Almost, always, in posting an opening video, it is to stimulate conversation. Moreover, when someone has a question and/or statement--that "may" need addressing, I provide an internet article. This is not because I lack an answer. As for all of you, I sometimes have a hard time communicating my views, and so I let the article (or whatever) do the talking. You can understand that, right?

Yes, that is fine, but I want your words first.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Outstanding! But first, are you willing to discuss reasons as to why and how you came to the conclusion that Charles Darwin knows as much as Molecular Biologists do today? If your response is no, than so be it; we will move on. No harm done. Otherwise, we can begin on your initial opinion: no, Molecular Biologists (today) do not know more than Charles Darwin did in his day. I really think it is imperative to know why and how you came to such conclusions. Such will help me understand--put into perspective--latter discussion (not to mention, you views of my original question). What is your verdict?

What Darwin did not know is not relevant to evolution. Darwin did not invent evolution; Darwin discovered evolution.

Originally posted by ushomefree
This question is similar--in some respects--to the first regarding genome information; but this focuses on the organism as a whole: [b]has a pre-existing organism ever been documented in nature evolving into--after billions of years or even a week, for the sake of argument--a new "previously" non-existent organism by means of random genetic mutation?

Think it over, if need be. I simply must go to bed. It is mid-night, and I have to get up in 4 hours for work! Ouch!! [/B]

Evolution cannot be recreated in the lab, because it is far too complex. However, research into robotics has made robots that can evolve in a limited way.

Just because we cannot duplicated something in a laboratory does not mean it is something that can't happen in nature. We have not yet duplicated a black hole in the lab, but they do exist in space.

After reading the last few pages I now want to shoot myself for the stupidity of this conversation and his reasoning. I don't say this often but that was probably the dumbest and most arrogant thing I have seen in all my time in this forum.

suicide1wa

Originally posted by ushomefree
What I mean by the increase of an organism's genome, refers to the addition of "previously" non-existent genetic information. For example, let us pretend that an earth worm contains 10 bits of genetic information, I am implying "by increase," that the genome will sum to 11, 12, 13, 14, or 15. This does not occur in nature.

The way I understood it (from High School biology), would be that there are two answers to that. One that DNA is similar to an anagram (I quickly wikipedia'd an anagram for my example). For example you might have the words "Eleven plus two", now when mutations happen it likely becomes gibberish like "lvepeen sul wot" which is obviously not useful in any way, but it might possibly in some rare cases (if I had listened to my Maths prof I could even tell you the likelihood of that event) turn into "Twelve plus one", which, if it is more useful than the code "Eleven plus two" is likely to be successful and in time will possibly become the new standard of the organisms.

As for just an additional information. Don't people with down syndrome have a whole additional chromosome, isn't that an increase in the amount of information at least? I don't think that's the way evolution happens, but I believe it fits your question.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Again, very good question; but genetic information is not measured, much like you would in terms of value. Genetic information is "information." Each "bit," if I may state so plainly, is simply an "instruction." This has nothing to do with numeral values, in terms of cost and effect.

To come back to my last argument. There are at least two methods of "new" information I can think of. To give another example, if there was a binary code called "1101" and this would now (by what means ever) be changed into either "1101001" or "1110" that would both be "new" information. In one case the old might still be there and there'd be additional information and in the other the old information would have transformed into new one. I believe both has been observed, inimalist at least says so and I trust him to have an acceptable knowledge of Evolution.

Originally posted by ushomefree
As previously stated, genetic mutations are errors within and/or of "pre-existing" genetic information. Again, genetic mutations are virtually identical to corrupted computer software. If "bits" of computer software information becomes corrupt, it becomes useless; and it renders the software (over all, because all information compliments one another) dead. The same phenomena applies to genetic information with an organism's genome.

I think that is a pretty good example. Just that Software does not "corrupt" as often as organisms copy each other and that the code used is probably less useful to form new good software. But I generally agree, I think if there was a way to make Software "corrupt" itself (i.e. add or subtract errors) and there was a way that makes the corrupter software lose out to more useful software then, just as in evolution, the software would, over time, even though most the "corruptions" decrease the value of the software, get software that is superior to the one started out with.

For example. If there is a line in the software that says "Count to 100", then most corruptions will lead to gibberish in the software, but every once in a while there would be superior code, that would be more useful than all the other codes and by that standard "survive" and "pass it on", so that, after a very long time, this code might have turned into "Count to 100, unless user says otherwise".

In this example neither the invisible hand of "survival of the fittest" nor how it is passed on is present. But I think it gives a pretty good view of what evolution is about, at least as I understand it.

Originally posted by ushomefree
Nature does not have customer services and hot-lines in the event of errors and complications; and organisms do not have Norton Utility and re-write scripts to correct information in error. The organism simply dies and/or mutates. Either way, it is not beneficial. It spells doom.

Usually yes. But in those rare cases where the error makes the program more powerful it becomes a trait that is likely to be passed on.

Originally posted by ushomefree
In any case, genetic information in error does create/produce information that was "previously" non-existent. Genetic mutations are simply errors within existent information--a dead end.

I think my anagram example is relatively good in showing that even an error can produce advantage. If, in the first example, there would also be a mechanism that would make each letter being at the new position more likely, it would relatively fast morph into the new sentence.

Originally posted by ushomefree
I appreciate your honesty, I failed to tell you that.

Thank you. I don't think it is necessary to claim proficiency in a field that I don't have it in. Others do and I try to participate as well as I can.

Obviously everyone that wants to answer your questions can do so, if it is up to me. Like inimalist said, I don't mind. I likely angered DigiMark and inimalist with my layman version of biology and probably Da Pittman with my example in binary code...damn people knowing better about what I try explaining!!

I'll add my 2 cents to this cluster **** now... then leave this to the professionals, I was in agreement with Bardock however, I was very interested in seeing where the yes/no questions went

Originally posted by ushomefree
DigiMark007-

May I ask you a series of questions, and have you answer them in "yes or no" fashion?

This was all the way back at the top of page 185. You were so determined to get "straight answers" from people that you refused to answer their points.

So, when we finally play along, the ruse is simply to make the "we can't observe macro-evolution" argument, which has been evidenced against ad nauseum in this thread and in multiple places throughout the internet.

However, that isn't the most ridiculous part of this exercise. The fact that after only 3 yes/no questions you revert back to points of discussion is so... I don't even know the word I want. Its insulting to me for you to do that, but more so, it is insulting to everyone else who was debating you 5 pages ago.

You said you didn't want long thought out answers, then demand them. You ignore the people making thought out posts in order to try and direct the debate as if you are some sort of host. This is childish, immature, and really, you should be ashamed for such idiocy.

also, more the the point, both of the questions I answered were worded in a way that shows very limited understanding of the concepts involved, as if we didn't know that. For example, a mother birthing a child is sufficient to answer your last question.