Creation vs Evolution

Started by Nellinator221 pages

They are related in that common knowledge idea of the evolution of non-life to life. Abiogenesis does come up often my debating whether evolution could have occurred and that is fact. Theories may stand alone, but many work in succession to one another making them intertwined. If the preceeding theory is false than the succeeding one does not work unless a better theory/hypothesis is found. In many arguments that is how abiogenesis and evolution are related. I am not trying to debate the purer side of biological science because few here actually understand it. If talking as if that were useful to people who aren't educated in field makes you feel better about yourself then continue, I have no quarrel with you, but veiled attacks on my intelligence are pretty pathetic as they are invalid.

Originally posted by Up In Flames
Another term for "Creation vs Evolution" would be "God vs Satan"

Not really evolution is not evil it is just has evidence

Originally posted by Up In Flames
Evolution, as scientific as you may think it is, is just a theory. Living matter can not evolve from non-living matter as this theory proclaims. A big bang could not have caused life to occur. That would mean that supernovas would definitely create living organisms.

A theory is the highest position that science can give a belief (other alums include a=a and gravity) The big band was a sudden expansion of space and time not an explosion.

Originally posted by Nellinator
They are related in that common knowledge idea of the evolution of non-life to life. Abiogenesis does come up often my debating whether evolution could have occurred and that is fact. Theories may stand alone, but many work in succession to one another making them intertwined. If the preceding theory is false than the succeeding one does not work unless a better theory/hypothesis is found. In many arguments that is how abiogenesis and evolution are related. I am not trying to debate the purer side of biological science because few here actually understand it. If talking as if that were useful to people who aren't educated in field makes you feel better about yourself then continue, I have no quarrel with you, but veiled attacks on my intelligence are pretty pathetic as they are invalid.

I'm not attacking your intelligence, I'm attacking your understanding of concepts. I have no quarrel with you either, its just that you continuously bastardize, misuse, and quite frankly seem to simply not understand scientific concepts and terms.

You are right that few here understand biology. Maybe those people should refrain from discussing concepts they are nowhere near qualified to debate.

Not necessarily an attack on you, but it would solve the problem of this thread and me having to play Biology 101 professor.

You don't understand science. Science doesn't care about the big picture or how things are put together. Sociologists might, but the credibility of ANY theory is self standing. Hypotheses are dependant, Theories are not. Your assessment is wrong by definition.

This whole "preceding argument is false" argument is pathetic. Even if I entertain it briefly, Its like saying that if you got the first question wrong on a test, the student must have gotten every successive question wrong. Evolution does NOT need abiogenesis to be correct. It is correct and was long before the hypothesis of abiogenesis was proposed. There is no sort of domino effect in science as there is in religion. Science is not a holistic approach.

May I also point out that abiogenesis is BY DEFINITION not evolution at all. There is no "evolution of non-life to life." Another simply misuse to terms that while aggravating, more importantly has led me to sincerely question your knowledge of any of these topics.

Originally posted by Up In Flames
Another term for "Creation vs Evolution" would be "God vs Satan"

Must you flaunt your zealotry so strongly ? 😬

Originally posted by Up In Flames
Evolution, as scientific as you may think it is, is just a theory. Living matter can not evolve from non-living matter as this theory proclaims. A big bang could not have caused life to occur. That would mean that supernovas would definitely create living organisms.

How do you know all this ? You are arguing against centuries of research and evidense....

Originally posted by Up In Flames
Man did not evolve from monkeys (if we did, there would be no monkeys left) monkeys did not evolve from sea creatures (oh wait, i think thats how sea monkeys came to be).

Man did not evolve from monkeys, that is true. According to Evolution, Man and Ape shared a common ancestor, that from which both evolved.

What school did you attend ? You seem to heavily lack an education on Evolution.

Originally posted by Nellinator
They are related in that common knowledge idea of the evolution of non-life to life. Abiogenesis does come up often my debating whether evolution could have occurred and that is fact. Theories may stand alone, but many work in succession to one another making them intertwined. If the preceeding theory is false than the succeeding one does not work unless a better theory/hypothesis is found. In many arguments that is how abiogenesis and evolution are related. I am not trying to debate the purer side of biological science because few here actually understand it. If talking as if that were useful to people who aren't educated in field makes you feel better about yourself then continue, I have no quarrel with you, but veiled attacks on my intelligence are pretty pathetic as they are invalid.

There is no difference between life and non-life when you look at the universe from the subatomic level.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Radiocarbon dating is only used to determine the age of carbonaceous materials up to 45,000 years. For ages and materials outsied of this, radiometric dating is used.

I knows this.

Doesn't radiometric dating make that same assumption, however?

When first learning about evolution, the entire process made sense to me, and I “sketched out” an example of the evolutionary process in my mind that I found to be helpful in understanding it. However, I haven’t had a biology class in two years now and, even in my AP class, we did little with evolution.

Please note that I am not saying that the following example is what happened or even could happen. I am merely using it as an example of the (simplified) evolutionary process. (I am making this clear so that I do not receive any “rofldoodle stupid” comments.)

Let us say there is a savannah. It is vast and has a variety of herbivorous creatures upon which any carnivores may dine. Now, in this savannah, there is a carnivore that is the top of the food chain. It is a very generic carnivore; its features include teeth, four legs, a tail, and fur. It cannot really be classified because of these indistinct features.

Now, in this savannah flows a river, effectively dividing the savannah in two. It is not impossible to cross, but it is certainly inconvenient. At some point in time, some of the carnivores are forced to cross this river due to a shortage of prey due to natural phenomenon. Some, however, do not cross, splitting the groups. Upon the other side, one group finds food and makes that place its permanent residence.

Over time, genetic variation and the rare beneficial mutation cause a change in characteristics. The carnivores on the famished side of the river have developed shorter, broader muzzles, they have sharp claws, and their bodies have adapted to chasing after lone herbivores—they are quick but only in short bursts. As the food source was scarce, they began hunting solitarily rather than as a group.

The other group, the one on the abundant side of the river, has developed longer, narrower muzzles, stubbier claws—as they weren’t necessary—and their bodies have adapted to long runs. Since there were plenty of herbivores, there was a greater chance that the carnivores would be spotted in hunting alone and thus had to resort to tiring out their prey in groups.

In short, one group is feline and the other is canine.

At some point in time, for whatever reason—perhaps a drought, another shortage of food, etc.—the groups mix. They both cross the river, but, as so many years have passed and their physiologies changed so much, they no longer resemble one another. In fact, they are completely incapable of sexual reproduction between the two groups. Thus, there are two groups, canines and felines, sharing the same habitat.

Now, is this or is this not correct?

Originally posted by Up In Flames
Another term for "Creation vs Evolution" would be "God vs Satan"

Evolution, as scientific as you may think it is, is just a theory. Living matter can not evolve from non-living matter as this theory proclaims. A big bang could not have caused life to occur. That would mean that supernovas would definitely create living organisms.

Man did not evolve from monkeys (if we did, there would be no monkeys left) monkeys did not evolve from sea creatures (oh wait, i think thats how sea monkeys came to be).

Damn... gotta leave the office now. I'll continue this later....

Your logic is shocking.

Originally posted by lord xyz
Your logic is shocking.

Agreed... My favorite part of the rant was "if we did [evolve], there would be no monkeys left"... I seriously think he thinks Evolution is a 'chimpanzee changing and growing into a man over the period of it's life'.

Originally posted by Alliance
This whole "preceding argument is false" argument is pathetic. Even if I entertain it briefly, Its like saying that if you got the first question wrong on a test, the student must have gotten every successive question wrong. Evolution does NOT need abiogenesis to be correct. It is correct and was long before the hypothesis of abiogenesis was proposed. There is no sort of domino effect in science as there is in religion. Science is not a holistic approach.

May I also point out that abiogenesis is BY DEFINITION not evolution at all. There is no "evolution of non-life to life." Another simply misuse to terms that while aggravating, more importantly has led me to sincerely question your knowledge of any of these topics.


I think you are misunderstanding my point. I am stating that a common argument about evolution is that it would be impossible for evolution to have started without abiogenesis. I did not say that the whole theory crumbles, what I said is that if abiogenesis was proven false, a better hypothesis is needed to replace it. I am also saying that is argued that evolution (I am, of course speaking of macroevolution not microevolution) would be impossible without abiogenesis and therefore, if abiogenesis is false, the evolution of early life is on shaky ground which is where someone might argue that a Creator started the process of evolution. I am not saying this is correct, or valid, I am saying that is the way it works in the real world.

I do understand evolution and biology in the terms that you do as I do have university education in the field. However, I choose not to talk in the accepted scientific way because only you would really understand it. I am willing to accept that you probably have a deeper education of the subject as you are in molecular biology, but do not go so far as to say that I do not understand because I do.

I used evolution as a verb in that instance, I was not referring to the theory of evolution 😉

Originally posted by FeceMan
When first learning about evolution, the entire process made sense to me, and I “sketched out” an example of the evolutionary process in my mind that I found to be helpful in understanding it. However, I haven’t had a biology class in two years now and, even in my AP class, we did little with evolution.

Please note that I am not saying that the following example is what happened or even could happen. I am merely using it as an example of the (simplified) evolutionary process. (I am making this clear so that I do not receive any “rofldoodle stupid” comments.)

Let us say there is a savannah. It is vast and has a variety of herbivorous creatures upon which any carnivores may dine. Now, in this savannah, there is a carnivore that is the top of the food chain. It is a very generic carnivore; its features include teeth, four legs, a tail, and fur. It cannot really be classified because of these indistinct features.

Now, in this savannah flows a river, effectively dividing the savannah in two. It is not impossible to cross, but it is certainly inconvenient. At some point in time, some of the carnivores are forced to cross this river due to a shortage of prey due to natural phenomenon. Some, however, do not cross, splitting the groups. Upon the other side, one group finds food and makes that place its permanent residence.

Over time, genetic variation and the rare beneficial mutation cause a change in characteristics. The carnivores on the famished side of the river have developed shorter, broader muzzles, they have sharp claws, and their bodies have adapted to chasing after lone herbivores—they are quick but only in short bursts. As the food source was scarce, they began hunting solitarily rather than as a group.

The other group, the one on the abundant side of the river, has developed longer, narrower muzzles, stubbier claws—as they weren’t necessary—and their bodies have adapted to long runs. Since there were plenty of herbivores, there was a greater chance that the carnivores would be spotted in hunting alone and thus had to resort to tiring out their prey in groups.

In short, one group is feline and the other is canine.

At some point in time, for whatever reason—perhaps a drought, another shortage of food, etc.—the groups mix. They both cross the river, but, as so many years have passed and their physiologies changed so much, they no longer resemble one another. In fact, they are completely incapable of sexual reproduction between the two groups. Thus, there are two groups, canines and felines, sharing the same habitat.

Now, is this or is this not correct?

Yes, that is a general overview of evolution to the point of speciation.

But there is so much detail that is missing. Its just a general model, but its already a better understanding than some people on these forums.

Originally posted by Nellinator
I think you are misunderstanding my point. I am stating that a common argument about evolution is that it would be impossible for evolution to have started without abiogenesis. I did not say that the whole theory crumbles, what I said is that if abiogenesis was proven false, a better hypothesis is needed to replace it. I am also saying that is argued that evolution

The common man has no concept of evolution. His arguments based on nothing but lack of knowledge and opinion carry no weight. Abiogenesis is independent of evolution. Period. Nothing about the Theory of evolution changes on e bit. Evolution does not discuss, require, nor predict abiogenesis.

If you feel differently, point out where it does.

Originally posted by Nellinator
(I am, of course speaking of macroevolution not microevolution)

Of course, in your complex understanding of this issue you understand that macroevolution and microevolution are a distinction without a difference and these terms have not been used in the accepted model of evolution since the 1960s.

Its something resurrected by IDers because they feel it presents a gaping hole in the Theory. Of course, the general populous is so willing to absorb whatever their preacher says, but is unwilling to actually be educated on the subject, leading to our current predicament in society and in science.

Originally posted by Nellinator
would be impossible without abiogenesis and therefore, if abiogenesis is false, the evolution of early life is on shaky ground which is where someone might argue that a Creator started the process of evolution. I am not saying this is correct, or valid, I am saying that is the way it works in the real world.

There is no shaky ground. See my earlier example. There are other hypothesis besides abiogenesis. Creationism is a non-scientific possibility as well.

Originally posted by Nellinator
I used evolution as a verb in that instance, I was not referring to the theory of evolution 😉

That may be true, but I don't accept it. If your comment had concerned the "evolution" of a political system or architecture, that would have been fine, but you referenced the evolution of life. That references biological evolution which directly references the Theory.

Originally posted by Alliance
The common man has no concept of evolution. His arguments based on nothing but lack of knowledge and opinion carry no weight. Abiogenesis is independent of evolution. Period. Nothing about the Theory of evolution changes on e bit. Evolution does not discuss, require, nor predict abiogenesis.

If you feel differently, point out where it does.

Of course, in your complex understanding of this issue you understand that macroevolution and microevolution are a distinction without a difference and these terms have not been used in the accepted model of evolution since the 1960s.

Its something resurrected by IDers because they feel it presents a gaping hole in the Theory. Of course, the general populous is so willing to absorb whatever their preacher says, but is unwilling to actually be educated on the subject, leading to our current predicament in society and in science.

There is no shaky ground. See my earlier example. There are other hypothesis besides abiogenesis. Creationism is a non-scientific possibility as well.

That may be true, but I don't accept it. If your comment had concerned the "evolution" of a political system or architecture, that would have been fine, but you referenced the evolution of life. That references biological evolution which directly references the Theory.


I think that abiogenesis and evolution discussions are often related when talking about how life began. Evolution is based a genetics and some might argue that DNA and the proteins in chromosomes are not naturally forming substance in nature. To that it can be argued that the atmospheric composition was much different 3.5 billion years ago, to which some would argue that the theoretical conditions still would not have allowed the formation of amino acids and so on. Therefore they are somewhat related. That said, evolution is a valid theory on it own based on the evidence of genetics and the fossil record, however, without abiogenesis there is a hole in the theory of the evolution of life (which is not the same as the theory of evolution which is as I said an independent theory).

Of course macroevolution is no longer used, as macroevolution would simply be the result of millions of years of microevolution basically making both terms useless. I do understand this and I was using the term to make the point that many people believe that macroevolution is impossible if abiogenesis is impossible.

I am aware, I am not stating my opinion, I am speaking of some commonly held opinions. I am not trying to defend that. On your side note, I sometimes wonder why preachers talk about evolution (I have never heard anything on it in church, but I am under the impression that it does) when that is not their purpose. Preaching against evolution in an uneducated manner does not serve God's will in any way I have seen.

As you quoted, I am not saying that it is valid.

Perhaps using evolution as a verb was not the best choice of wording in a discussion, but that was my intent. I do not make the mistake of equating the evolution (verb) of life with the theory of evolution.

Originally posted by Nellinator
I think that abiogenesis and evolution discussions are often related when talking about how life began. Evolution is based a genetics and some might argue that DNA and the proteins in chromosomes are not naturally forming substance in nature. To that it can be argued that the atmospheric composition was much different 3.5 billion years ago, to which some would argue that the theoretical conditions still would not have allowed the formation of amino acids and so on. Therefore they are somewhat related. That said, evolution is a valid theory on it own based on the evidence of genetics and the fossil record, however, without abiogenesis there is a hole in the theory of the evolution of life (which is not the same as the theory of evolution which is as I said an independent theory).

Abiogenesis explains the chemical origins of life.

Evolution explains speciation.

They do not explain related phenomena.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Of course macroevolution is no longer used, as macroevolution would simply be the result of millions of years of microevolution basically making both terms useless. I do understand this and I was using the term to make the point that many people believe that macroevolution is impossible if abiogenesis is impossible.

I am aware, I am not stating my opinion, I am speaking of some commonly held opinions. I am not trying to defend that. On your side note, I sometimes wonder why preachers talk about evolution (I have never heard anything on it in church, but I am under the impression that it does) when that is not their purpose. Preaching against evolution in an uneducated manner does not serve God's will in any way I have seen.

As you quoted, I am not saying that it is valid.

Perhaps using evolution as a verb was not the best choice of wording in a discussion, but that was my intent. I do not make the mistake of equating the evolution (verb) of life with the theory of evolution.

If the argument in question is not your argument, and you have not been trying to defend this argument, then what have you been doing in your last seven posts besides back-peddling?

Originally posted by Nellinator
I think that abiogenesis

Of course macroevolution is no longer used, as macroevolution would simply be

As others have said: FAIL!

Originally posted by Alliance
Yes, that is a general overview of evolution to the point of speciation.

But there is so much detail that is missing. Its just a general model, but its already a better understanding than some people on these forums.


Right. I didn't want to go in-depth, as that would be...lengthy. I do, however, want to make sure the example would be correct if I were to explain to others how evolution worked--especially since that is a little more than "bird beak one, bird beak two," what with the entirely different family.
Originally posted by FeceMan
Doesn't radiometric dating make that same assumption, however?

Originally posted by FeceMan
Doesn't radiometric dating make that same assumption, however?

What assumption would that be?

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Abiogenesis explains the chemical origins of life.

Evolution explains speciation.

They do not explain related phenomena.

If the argument in question is not your argument, and you have not been trying to defend this argument, then what have you been doing in your last seven posts besides back-peddling?


Evolution explains more than speciation. They are related and I already explained why. Abiogenesis is a hypothesis for the origin of life. After life has started, evolution is a theory on the rest. Therefore, they are related in explain the succession from non-life to the complicated forms of life that exist today. Because the theory of evolution is independently valid it does not mean that it is not related to other theories and hypothesis. Just as the theories of gravity and lift are individually valid does not mean they are not related because they can be.

I have been trying to explain how they are related.

If I told you my car created itself, would you laugh at me?

Probably.

Originally posted by BigRed
If I told you my car created itself, would you laugh at me?

Probably.

If I told people that I honestly believed God created my car would I be considered insane?

You need to pick your analogies with more care.

Now I have a challenge for the Creationists. Provide one piece of evidence for creation (ie not evidence against evolution, I want actual evidence in support of creation).