I don't really think Tia is controlling the Jack and Liz relationship...and IMO I hope she is not...cuz I like the fact that Jack and Liz are acting on their impluses...also, I didn't really notice the ring till Lovelyone pointed it out...still haven't noticed it the ending scene...i'll keep looking...but like "jack sparrow" i just assumed the spot reappears cuz his three days are up...it can reapear in that way...that was davy jones' pact with jack....
they are acting on their own impulses...I doubt that she is controlling their emotions..she's just making certain events take place in order for them to realize their love to. There is the whole fact that Tia knew Jack was going to die..she had the means to bring him back before any of the events took place...the ring has to mean something in the movie otherwise it would be incredibly pointless for him to wear it..ans what was the point of making it obvious in only 3 instances in the movie? All revolving around Liz and Jack realizing they are beginning to love l each other....the ring has a fat black spot in the middle of it....and its also really suspicious that Becket says "wedding stopped or fate intervening" to Liz. I think that Tia has been speaking to him..he is the only one with the legal power to stop the wedding...and thus the Will/Davy crap can start..
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Jack sparrow doesn't need to learn to love someone SaprrowSavvy..I'm pretty sure he is capable of it..and he doesnt need to learn to put himself before others..he does that anyway...he's been doing it since before we even met him..He just needs to learn to let someone in, close to him for once and keep them there..
Tia even gives him a hint of what not to do with Liz now that he has won over her heart..when he puts the heart in the jar foolishy thinking that it's safe and that he has it to himself..then realizes its not in there (its been taken)...he is terrified..In movie 3 apparently Jack hands liz over to sao feng thinking she will be safe for one night and that he will see her again..but she gets kidnapped AGAIN by Norrington and the EITC...thats gonna make him realize DAMN IT I cant keep doing this to Liz if i want to keep her...
It sounds exciting, though...it will be great to see him panic over Liz and try to figure out how he is going to get her back....I think Norrington could make a deal with Liz...maybe he tell her something, Like Marry Me and we will Let Jack Sparrow go free....she will sacrifice herself for Jack...but then Jack finds out and he tells Norrington the deal is off and springs Liz from Jail and tells her to go off and be with Will where she is safe and she begs him not to....at this point they both realize how much they love each other...but is willing to sacrifice that love so that the other one can be free...Jack is willing to turn himself into Beckett and Norrington in exchange for Liz's freedom...but somehow in the end...it all works out...Norrington finally getting fed up with Beckett and deciding to let Liz and Jack both go free....now that would be great...but I know it's way off course...so I'll just continue to dream about things I would like to see take place in POTC 3....
There was a competition winner who won the first 56 pages of the draft script...he put them on myspcace and Disney made him take them off 😂.I thought to myself why would they let people see this?..Iget the feeling that they gave those out is because there are already hints at the end of movie 2 as to what is going to happen with Liz at the beginning of movie 3..they match up perfectly with what happens in those first few pages they released.
I also think that its been confirmed by the director that this happens to Liz..there are confirmed spoilers and there are just plain theories..I think the whole sao leaked script thing was confirmed to be true..
form wikipedia:
The first fifty-seven pages of an early draft of the script have leaked online. Co-writer Ted Elliot confirmed on the website KeepToTheCode.com that this is a portion of an extremely early "budget draft" of the script, and while some of the broad strokes of the story are consistent with the final version, specific events and dialogue are very rough when compared with the final film, and these pages do not reflect the final film's writing or quality.[5] This early, rough version of the script shows Will Turner, Elizabeth Swann, and Barbossa traveling to the Orient and confronting Captain Sao Feng in search of charts that lead to "World's End". Feng is captain of the red-sailed pirate ship Empress, and hosts a mysterious "dragon lady" onboard his ship. Another element of the ride is represented in this version of the script, when Will, Barbossa and their crew sails their ship; an oriental junk named Hai Peng; off the "end of the world" a huge, straight drop in the middle of the ocean, mimicking the large drops found on the Pirates of the Caribbean theme park attraction. Jack Sparrow and the Black Pearl are found in Davy Jones' Locker, a kind of purgatory made up of nothing but sand and strange crabs with swords. Will is intent on retrieving the Black Pearl as it is the only ship with the speed necessary to overtake the Flying Dutchman and therefore rescue his father Bootstrap Bill Turner. This version of the script shows that Commodore James Norrington has Davy Jones and his crew at his command, having captured his heart in the second film.
Originally posted by LovelyOne
There was a competition winner who won the first 56 pages of the draft script...he put them on myspcace and Disney made him take them off 😂.I thought to myself why would they let people see this?..Iget the feeling that they gave those out is because there are already hints at the end of movie 2 as to what is going to happen with Liz at the beginning of movie 3..they match up perfectly with what happens in those first few pages they released.
Really, I saw a script too somewhere but don't remember the part about Jack handing Liz over to the Chinese guy...oh well...guess all we can do is wait and wait and wait and see....Gosh, LovelyOne I sure hope all your theories are right...I sure hope I'm right about all the clues pointing to Jack and Liz....or I will be sorely disappointed...if it all goes screwy...I guess we can have a pity party on here and Jessigm (?) can laugh at all of us....I sure would hate to think that everything that happened in POTC 2 was just a waste of time...gosh, if you think about POTC 2 - there are really no WIll/Liz moments...except the jail scene and when he shows up at the island....she doens't even run to Will when he falls from the cargo net...instead she climbs up the stairs and hangs on to Jack's leg...I don't know about everyone else...but that is a very intimate moment...to cling to someone's leg like that....and then what about at the end...course I know what...so Liz can kiss Jack (that's the way it is suppose to be)...but you would think that the character of Will would have made sure that Liz got into the longboat before anyone else...he just starts getting in himself and then he looks up and sees Liz kissing Jack...and again, as we have said time and time again....if Jack really wanted to get off that boat...he could have hollared down to Gibbs to come help him...he could have pleaded with Liz to please don't leave him there....he would have cowared from the Kracken as he had been doing the entire movie...but now that he has been kissed by Liz...it's like all of a sudden he faces the Kracken with all the power and might that he can muster...facing it with sword in hand ready to conquer....if it had not been for the kiss...he would have tried to jump overboard or something...throughout the whole movie he is scared to death of the Kracken..now he faces it like a Warrior...love it.
I know you know all this LovelyOne - I just like rehasing all this to keep reminding myself what this movie is all about..and to let the non-believers try to see where this is headed....how can anyone not notice all these things about the development of jack and liz's characters....
Originally posted by lovethemtigers
Really, I saw a script too somewhere but don't remember the part about Jack handing Liz over to the Chinese guy...oh well...guess all we can do is wait and wait and wait and see....Gosh, LovelyOne I sure hope all your theories are right...I sure hope I'm right about all the clues pointing to Jack and Liz....or I will be sorely disappointed...if it all goes screwy...I guess we can have a pity party on here and Jessigm (?) can laugh at all of us....I sure would hate to think that everything that happened in POTC 2 was just a waste of time...gosh, if you think about POTC 2 - there are really no WIll/Liz moments...except the jail scene and when he shows up at the island....she doens't even run to Will when he falls from the cargo net...instead she climbs up the stairs and hangs on to Jack's leg...I don't know about everyone else...but that is a very intimate moment...to cling to someone's leg like that....and then what about at the end...course I know what...so Liz can kiss Jack (that's the way it is suppose to be)...but you would think that the character of Will would have made sure that Liz got into the longboat before anyone else...he just starts getting in himself and then he looks up and sees Liz kissing Jack...and again, as we have said time and time again....if Jack really wanted to get off that boat...he could have hollared down to Gibbs to come help him...he could have pleaded with Liz to please don't leave him there....he would have cowared from the Kracken as he had been doing the entire movie...but now that he has been kissed by Liz...it's like all of a sudden he faces the Kracken with all the power and might that he can muster...facing it with sword in hand ready to conquer....if it had not been for the kiss...he would have tried to jump overboard or something...throughout the whole movie he is scared to death of the Kracken..now he faces it like a Warrior...love it.I know you know all this LovelyOne - I just like rehasing all this to keep reminding myself what this movie is all about..and to let the non-believers try to see where this is headed....how can anyone not notice all these things about the development of jack and liz's characters....
I TOTALLY agree with you!
LOl I know I wont be right with all of the theories..but the obvious 1 is the development of Jack and Liz..people seem to find it SO hard to see Jack possibly changing in character...THATS WHAT ALL GOOD CHARACTERS DO IN TRILOGIES! 😂 and no he's not just gonna learn to put people before himself..he does that ANYWAY..See what i notice is that Jack can be in love with one person and still be an ass to everyone else so he still has his good old personality traits..he just cares more for Liz...thats exactly what he does in this movie..he tries so hard not to hurt her or make her scared of him..he handles her as if she is precious to him...she's the only one he will give his beloved objects to to look after..she's the only one HE was looking at just as everyone was discussing leaving the pearl..he was deciding to stay for HER..and I think he would have stayed no matter WHAT..she just chained him up to STOP him from showing he loved her AGAIN and to remove him from her life..because he is one MOTHER of a tempting threat to her..and its ALL because he came back for HER...and SHE SAW IT.
Yes Will betrays Jack and ambushes him with Sao feng because of what he saw Jack do to Liz he says he does it because he doesn't want to see Liz give her heart away to "someone who cant love her" When we all saw that he COULD by the end of movie 2. (put the heart close to his to protect it from the baddies) So will is basically trying to get rid of Jack so that he can have Liz to himself
This symbolizes the part where Jack smacks Will round the head with an oar in movie 2 where Will is about to grab the chest(no heart inside) meaning that he's lost her to Jack
So Jack sends Liz away with Sao Feng for one night so that Will cant have her either (Jack puts the heart into the jar of dirt to hide it) He thinks its safe in there (Jack thinks Liz will be safe for one night on Sao Feng's ship)
Norrington kidnaps the heart from the Jar (sao fengs ship) and takes it with him in a sack to the EITC...
Jack thinks the heart is safe but CRASH..the jar is empty and he is absolutely, bloody terrified..
Jack is probably gonna find out that Liz has been kidnaped and be like "OH MY GOD LIZZIE!!!!" as in HE CARES FOR HER and realizes how STUPID it was to leave her in an unsafe place just so he could win one over on Will..
Oh also!! Jack may have done that to piss both characters off because Liz being confronted with the whole situationgoes into her typical denial and says "oh its not like that Will!"..and Jacks probably thinking.."OMG I showed you that I loved you and you cold sholder me? and for WILL? that little weakling who cant ever seem to save you? Well fine i'll pretend I dont care about you EITHER! and and leave you in danger for a while see how YOU like it!..and YOU will..YOU cant have her either HA HA!!!"
but when he realizes that she's actually missing and in BIG danger he will probably go after her...He looks as if he is about to cry when thet Jar smashes and the heart isn't there
Originally posted by LovelyOne
Oh also!! Jack may have done that to piss both characters off because Liz being confronted with the whole situationgoes into her typical denial and says "oh its not like that Will!"..and Jacks probably thinking.."OMG I showed you that [b]I loved you and you cold sholder me? and for WILL? that little weakling who cant ever seem to save you? Well fine i'll pretend I dont care about you EITHER! and and leave you in danger for a while see how YOU like it!..and YOU will..YOU cant have her either HA HA!!!"but when he realizes that she's actually missing and in BIG danger he will probably go after her...He looks as if he is about to cry when thet Jar smashes and the heart isn't there [/B]
i COMPLETELY agree with this 100%... and i think this is where the difficulty will come in. By the time Jack realizes he loves Liz, will it be too late? Will he have to opt out and be noble? ya know?
i definately think Jack is a very FAIR person and he likes to be even with people (i saved your life you saved mine we're square, tracking down barbossa after the mutiny, that sort of thing) so even though i dont think the kiss betrayal bothered him at all (he loved it) i still think he wants to do something similar to her, ya know?
I dont think he would have done that to her until she showed "no love" towards him for saving her..
It either hurt him and he wanted to hurt her back for a split second without thinking properly OR he wanted to make it even like you said..so there would be NO HARD FEELINGS between them and their relationship could grow a bit more..I mean she wont be feeling all "unworthy of jack now" will she?he THOUGHT he was going to get her back safley either way..so he still WANTED her to be safe...and I think Liz will still have the feelings for him because she knows that Jack didnt put her on there to get kidnaped..she knew that he only put her on there for one night...
there was no possible way for him to make a deal with the EITC to gain her for their own reasons..since he was DEAD and has only just come back..
I never said that I didn't think he could change. On the contrary, I believe him to be an incredibly dynamic character that will continually surprise us, showing and doing things that go against his initial persona, even when we look at his past canon. He does make a large effort to maintain a certain persona despite all the colours beneath. Changes that drastic, or changes in that direction don't quite fit into that dynamic.
I believe we'll be surprised in another way. Think of it this way; the claim is that he'll do something we don't expect... you're all expecting him to get together with Elizabeth, ultimately. I don't think this is the huge big surprise if he doesn't, though it may be part of something larger and more unexpected.
I also never said that he needed to be taught to love. I saw that that was what the majority of people here seemed to be implying. I fully understand that it will be difficult for me to maintain my case surrounded by people who vehemently support this pairing, no matter how good my evidence is. The evidence presented to me so far in favor of this pairing has seemed weak to me, at times going radically overboard, depending too much on material things, and as such my case is against it. I don't ignore the theory threads, many of them contributed to my opinion. I do believe that Elizabeth is developing feelings for him, and vice versa, and that the feelings Jack has for her are different than what's normal for him. He can and may well fall in love with Elizabeth, though any actual 'getting together' will be short-lived. That's not to say I support her returning to Will. In fact, I believe she'll end up with neither man. I'm convinced, based on the characters, that this 'love triangle' will end in a dead end, though it won't be for naught. Because a story line or plot bunny is started that doesn't end in the way we want or expect, that doesn't mean it's been swept under the rung as filler. This is where character development happens, even if it's not a classic Disney ending (Disney ending... made all the more amusing to me by the fact that this is a Disney movie).
I heard that someone here is/was in a film studies class-- my own taught me right off the bat not to look at things that weren't meant to be looked at; some items or scenes or lines are meant just as they are presented, and the director meant them to have no deeper meaning. I think that this ring of Tia Dalma's is such a thing, and a number of other things that many believe to be strong implications are being looked at in a biased light. Jack wears more than one ring on that hand, last I checked. He wears rings on his other hand too. In the first movie he wore nothing on his left hand, but that's equally as much of a non-issue. It was never addressed, and likely never will be. Actors have some say over how they wear their costume, and what he wears and how he wears it changes some over the course of the film. His acquisition of a ring at Tia Dalma's hut is little more than what it's been presented as- he likes to steal shiny things, it's not a doom he brought upon himself, Tia didn't intentionally lay out things for him to steal. She would have watched him, but she didn't. There'd be some other mention, but there wasn't. We'd have seen the ring more clearly, but we didn't.
However, I can agree that with her words Tia has perhaps nudged certain individuals in a particular direction, and likely has an ulterior motive. I doubt her motive is to get back with Jones, or turn someone else into him. Thus far her character has been left wide open, though, so we'll be unable to come to any conclusions until installment number three. I can accept that she's manipulative, though not to such an extreme as to make someone take the same path as the demon of sailors.
It's clear Davy Jones wants her back, but she may not want to have him back. Hence the heart-tearing. If she accepted him, there'd be no reason to tear out his heart. Loving what one cannot have is where such devastating emotion and desperate action come into play.
For now, that's all I can scrape out of my brain. Work was monotonous and lengthy. I am not being intentionally antagonistic, if some think I'm here just for the sake of making you angry o_o. When my view differs from the norm, I find debating the subject frustratingly enjoyable. =)
(And is there any reason you seem to be referring to me as 'Jack Sparrow', quotes and all? ._. )
The ring is meant to look obvious when he takes it..so its meant to look obvious that he is wearing it on his thumb and basically shoving it into the lens of the camera..
Jacks compass was pointing to liz..it was pretty much confirmed by Tia..and Liz resembles the chest that he's really after..there are loads of hints..so Jack WANTS to love liz..and she wants to love him..after all he DOES gain the key to the chest, protects the chest from the baddie and then gains the prize of the heart fair and square..that was how he DID win Liz over in the movie..when he came back for her..protected her from the kraken and Jack won her over because of it.
There are about umpteen hints in the movie that they are soul mates..
She is suddenly wearing Jack's missing hat as soon as she bumps into him... he emerges from the tavern after trying on lots of different ones feeling unsatisfied..leaving with nothing then the missing part of his life basically strolls right up to him..
Also..you aren't meant to spot things straight away with this film..you are supposed to spot the hints the second or third time you see it..the obvious doesn't need to be so obvious that you pick it up straight away..thats what makes the movie so compelling and enigmatic..thats why so many people are talking about it..On the surface it looks one way but beneath..its a whole different story.
SparrowSavvy
they could very well shock us..but most people WANT there to be a Jack/Liz thing.
The script writers will also have to think about what the audience will gain from the overall trilogy..its a summer, block buster movie series. Its not an independent film/trilogy where they can end it in a weird way and get praise for it..if they do that with pirates then it will go down as a pretty disliked movie/franchise....they NEED to please the mass audience..who are expecting a happy fun blockbuster movie/trilogy.
They know how to capture an audience with a single film their "kiss rule" they mentioned in movie 1 commentary being the main thing:..
Beginning: are the ever gonna hook up?...
Middle: OH THEY ARE!!! WAIT!! damn it they didn't kiss!!! oh COME ON!🙁
End😮H YES THEY HAVE!!! ULTIMATE HAPPY!
So they use their "Kiss rule" over the trilogy too as its GOT to please the mass audience
Movie 1:..OH no chance Jack will ever get her..
Movie 2😮H WAIT WHATS THIS JACK/LIZ? 😱....damn there might not be chance 🙁
Movie 3: YES THEY HAVE GOT TOGETHER..ultimate HAPPY for the mass audience!
The ring is meant to look obvious when he takes it..so its meant to look obvious that he is wearing it on his thumb and basically shoving it into the lens of the camera..(etc)
So you've said on a number of occasions, LovelyOne, but I'm still thoroughly unconvinced that that's any more than fan speculation, and reading too much into things.
The compass wasn't pointing at Liz, the compass pointed erratically between several (three or more) different places in rather opposing directions. He does not place the ring on during the talk of women being what vexes all men, he takes it right when she leaves the room. The other two rings (one of which has a black stone set into it, coincidentally) are equally as obvious, even in the teaser scene. They're all huge and gaudy.
All the ideas for saving the ship from the Kraken came from Will. Jack redeemed his fleeing the ship by returning and being the one to complete the plan. The plan was not his, so I think some credit should go to Will here. Going back to help did win Jack points, but I'm still not convinced that it was only, or even mostly for Elizabeth's sake.
As for the hat, her entire attire was different from when she was on the merchant ship, so it's more likely that she chose a different disguise so she wouldn't be recognized by the crew of that ship that went ashore. She's wearing different clothes from the 'ghost' scene to when she steps into the tavern when Norrington starts to fight. While being a tricorne, it was not Jack's hat.
As for the majority... I know what the majority is for young women, and that's reflected by this forum which seems to be composed of nothing but. The majority in terms of the actual majority of the POTC audience... it's all across the scale, but overall, I've gathered from family and coworkers, and friends alike that Jack/Elizabeth is a no go, and she'll end up with Will. Sparrington and Shipshipper fans are a minority, and I believe that in the end taking all the audience into account, Elizabeth/Jack fans are also a minority, though probably not by much. Sparrington and Shipshipping will remain in the realm of fanfiction, and will not show at all in the movie. A happy ending with Elizabeth and Jack... I think will also remain in fanfiction and dreams.