Heaven/Afterlife, what's the point?

Originally posted by debbiejo
If energy cannot be destroyed, then where do we go?

Peices of our energy may scatter and form the energy of another person, animal, plant, etc.

Maybe we become magma lol who knows...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I sort of beleive that if Reincarnation is indeed true, then much of what we learn stays with us from one life to another.

I'm skeptical of this, it would show a lack of progress greater than I believe should exist. Progress would be exponential in such a situation.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Do you ever beleive that Morality can be intuitive, and not just subjective or taught ? If so, it may be possible that the morals you hold true to yourself, that did not spawn from your religion, could come from lessons you may have learned in a previous life.

I do not. I do believe it is possible, and I see how such a belief fits this discussion, but I doubt it. I believe morals are totally learned. I believe some are learned by the individual without another teaching them, through experience with the consequences of action.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I think if Reincarnation is true, then we are not supposed to remember our past lives, because then we could not focus on this one...we would be too caught up with what we didn't finish in our past lives....u know...broken heart, failed relationships, dead relatives, etc.

Yes, but then how could you learn from that? Progress could be hampered by the lack of such knowledge as well.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
But if Reincarnation is true, then what I don't like about it is you may not see your current mother, father, lover, etc. in the next life, and that's heartbreaking. 🙁

If reincarnation is true, such relationships hold no real value. One would have an infinite number of each of these entities.

Originally posted by Regret
I'm skeptical of this, it would show a lack of progress greater than I believe should exist. Progress would be exponential in such a situation.

But do you imagine that a human being can progress THAT MUCH in one lifetime? That is what troubles me about "this is the only life" hypothesis...

Heaven and Hell are the reward and punishment for either progressing or NOT progressing in this life, essentially...

How can ONE LIFETIME be enough for our soul to truly mature ?

Originally posted by Regret
I do not. I do believe it is possible, and I see how such a belief fits this discussion, but I doubt it. I believe morals are totally learned. I believe some are learned by the individual without another teaching them, through experience with the consequences of action.

I can see where you are coming from, because if you notice children can be very cruel at a young age (you know the way kids tease and mock other kids) but as we get older, we tend to realize the pain caused by such behavior, so most of us try to stop ourselves from engaging in it any further...

Originally posted by Regret
Yes, but then how could you learn from that? Progress could be hampered by the lack of such knowledge as well.

Not necessarily...if morality is intuitive, then what we learned can exist within our unconcious mind....u know that only 10% of our brain/mind/psyche is conciously being used and accessed, while the other 90% is not being accessed fully.

You do not have to remember a past life to hold on to its "lessons"...if that even exist....

Originally posted by Regret
If reincarnation is true, such relationships hold no real value. One would have an infinite number of each of these entities.

Untrue....

Monogamy is another human construct, that only has as much power and value as WE give it....

It makes a lot of sense to me, if Reincarnation exists....perhaps we are meant to unite with EVERY SINGLE human soul in some way, and perhaps our multiple lives are the ways we unite and learn from every other individual.

The idea of Heaven and being with your "loved ones" again, but never really getting to know the rest of the world extensively, because we only have one life, seems way too limitted to me....sorry

Would I want to give up my family to learn to love other people ? Hellz no...but it would make sense that if we are going to truly all love one another, then we must have more reason and motive that just "oh there humans like us"....

When someone is your lover, or your freind or family, you will love them much more than someone else, on average.

How can you truly say you love human kind, and you love everyone on this Earth, when you only know less than 1% of this world's population?

Call this a crazy theory, but if the goal of life is to learn to love everyone here, then you have to know everyone here...and reincarnation makes the most sense in terms of being a method successful in getting you to grow up with and live with new people every life...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
But do you imagine that a human being can progress THAT MUCH in one lifetime? That is what troubles me about "this is the only life" hypothesis...

Heaven and Hell are the reward and punishment for either progressing or NOT progressing in this life, essentially...

How can ONE LIFETIME be enough for our soul to truly mature ?

Mormons view "Heaven" as just the next step in an eternal progression. Man will always progress. Mormons believe that man may become a God. By the time we reach that point, God will be at a point relative to his current from our position, although, at this point I am unsure of how such could be if he is what we believe him to be. But, this life is a small period in the maturation of man.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I can see where you are coming from, because if you notice children can be very cruel at a young age (you know the way kids tease and mock other kids) but as we get older, we tend to realize the pain caused by such behavior, so most of us try to stop ourselves from engaging in it any further...

Then we can see this concept from each others perspective. I would say that realization comes from experience, while it seems you would attribute it to "intuition."

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Not necessarily...if morality is intuitive, then what we learned can exist within our unconcious mind....u know that only 10% of our brain/mind/psyche is conciously being used and accessed, while the other 90% is not being accessed fully.

You do not have to remember a past life to hold on to its "lessons"...if that even exist....

I do not believe that knowledge without context is often useful. Given this, without the remembrance the "lessons" may be misinterpreted. But then, perhaps this would explain the atrocities that occur.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Untrue....

Monogamy is another human construct, that only has as much power and value as WE give it....

I wasn't referencing monogamy, but I understand your position here. I do not believe man capable of maintaining that many relational ties, over time they would become of less value. Value is determined by supply and demand, and many laws of economics apply to psychology, this is one of them.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
It makes a lot of sense to me, if Reincarnation exists....perhaps we are meant to unite with EVERY SINGLE human soul in some way, and perhaps our multiple lives are the ways we unite and learn from every other individual.

It is an interesting concept, some form of entire familial linking is required to pass into true enlightenment. Mormons believe that the entire genealogy of Adam must be linked, this will be the main purpose of the thousand years following Christ's return. I believe the concept is similar, although not the same, as your idea.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
The idea of Heaven and being with your "loved ones" again, but never really getting to know the rest of the world extensively, because we only have one life, seems way too limitted to me....sorry

I do not know what type of "getting to know" people occurs in the Mormon view of Heaven, so I can't comment on this, although if you desire such, I am sure it is in some way possible.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Would I want to give up my family to learn to love other people ? Hellz no...but it would make sense that if we are going to truly all love one another, then we must have more reason and motive that just "oh there humans like us"....

Makes sense, although, I believe that men should love one another because one wants to love one another. I believe that having a mandate/motivation/reason for loving others demeans that love. I find Heaven and the promise of it, and Hell and the escape from it, to be the wrong motivation, due to the selfish nature of such. I believe a person should love another because he loves them, not for any other purpose. I don't fit this, but it is the goal I have for my existence, I just may never reach it.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
When someone is your lover, or your freind or family, you will love them much more than someone else, on average

How can you truly say you love human kind, and you love everyone on this Earth, when you only know less than 1% of this world's population?

If you love people for the sake of loving them, you do not need to know them to achieve this, imo.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Call this a crazy theory, but if the goal of life is to learn to love everyone here, then you have to know everyone here...and reincarnation makes the most sense in terms of being a method successful in getting you to grow up with and live with new people every life...

It makes sense, but I cannot get over the forgetting aspect of the idea of reincarnation, that seems too limiting to me.

Originally posted by Regret
Mormons view "Heaven" as just the next step in an eternal progression. Man will always progress. Mormons believe that man may become a God. By the time we reach that point, God will be at a point relative to his current from our position, although, at this point I am unsure of how such could be if he is what we believe him to be. But, this life is a small period in the maturation of man.

It's a very interesting, but not totally original concept. A nice one though...Certain forms of Buddhism also beleive in becoming one with the creation force through a series of cycles, progressing to become one with the unifying force....

I can definately buy, however, your assertion that this life is a "small period in the maturation of man"...because this life is too short, any way you look at it. There has to be SOME POINT....atleast I thnk there does.

Now, as for your idea of us becoming a "God" or "one with God"....it this is true, then I beleive God embodies ALL, the way Lil Bitchiness believes it...

I thnk we are all God, aspects of him(or her) who must unite to become complete...I honestly think the ONLY thing keeping us away from this supreme being is DISUNITY, not the myth of "sin"

Doing anything good or bad, that aims at disunifying people, whether it be propaganda, lies, rumors, gossip, murder, rape, insults, offenses, cliques, discrimination, etc.....are the things taht keep us away from this "God"

I think once we learn to Love and ACCEPT eachother, then we become united, and then we become one with each other, and one with creation....call me idealistic, but to make that makes the most sense.

To me, in terms of morality, anything that aims to unite us all is good, and anything that aims to separate us is bad.

Originally posted by Regret
Then we can see this concept from each others perspective. I would say that realization comes from experience, while it seems you would attribute it to "intuition."

I think it could be both....even when you are young and naive, you don't have to have proir moral experience to know that your father beating up your mother is "wrong"...somehow you just know it is.

Originally posted by Regret
I do not believe that knowledge without context is often useful. Given this, without the remembrance the "lessons" may be misinterpreted. But then, perhaps this would explain the atrocities that occur.

Knowledge without context can be more useful than an entire textbook....there are many people who claim thier "gut instinct" or "intuition" has solved problems that thier logic could not handle....

I believe we need to rely on BOTH logic AND emotion, not just one or the other...

You who beleives so much in the Bible, yet you must realize how little logic the Bible contains.....yet you dont really NEED that logic to have Faith, now do you ???? Doesn't something inside you already trust the Bible without needing logical proof of it ? (i know this sounds ironic for me to state that, but think about it....)

Originally posted by Regret
I wasn't referencing monogamy, but I understand your position here. I do not believe man capable of maintaining that many relational ties, over time they would become of less value. Value is determined by supply and demand, and many laws of economics apply to psychology, this is one of them.

IT depends...some people can value another person forever, while most of the time we outgrow each other.....

Originally posted by Regret
It is an interesting concept, some form of entire familial linking is required to pass into true enlightenment. Mormons believe that the entire genealogy of Adam must be linked, this will be the main purpose of the thousand years following Christ's return. I believe the concept is similar, although not the same, as your idea.

Sounds cool, but what if we truly evolved from apes ? Does that lessen our connection or origin ? It shouldn't...since when are we so much more important than Apes ? Why would it be an insult to have come from them ?

I don't think Human Beings are separate from the Animal Kingdom....we all inhabit this world, from the tiny insects, to human beings, to giant whales, etc. We all belong to this world, and we are ALL related....

Originally posted by Regret
I do not know what type of "getting to know" people occurs in the Mormon view of Heaven, so I can't comment on this, although if you desire such, I am sure it is in some way possible.

I don't truly desire it, but if that's the way it is, then I guess I have to deal with it....

If Heaven and Hell are our final destinations, then what a waste i think....how do we get to know everyone else in life ?

Originally posted by Regret
Makes sense, although, I believe that men should love one another because one wants to love one another. I believe that having a mandate/motivation/reason for loving others demeans that love. I find Heaven and the promise of it, and Hell and the escape from it, to be the wrong motivation, due to the selfish nature of such. I believe a person should love another because he loves them, not for any other purpose. I don't fit this, but it is the goal I have for my existence, I just may never reach it.

I beleive Love happens on its own...I agree that love should not require a reason....but then I assume you agree with me that Love happens on its own...

I do not beleive you can choose to love someone...I thnk it happens by itself...now, if you have made yourself love someone, then you need to teach me how to do that..... 😉

There are a lot of women (and some men) who are attracted to me, that I have no desire to be with, nor have any romantic/sexual attraction too...if you can tell me as to how I can make myself like these people (so that im not lonely) please tell me....thanks.

Oh, and another question.....can you make someone love you ? lol

Originally posted by Regret
If you love people for the sake of loving them, you do not need to know them to achieve this, imo.

Even still...you shouldn't need a reason to love, even if its for the sake of love....pure love has no reason...it just does..it just loves....no conditions, no reasons, no questions.

True Love is not jealous and does not judge...that is why I do not beleive in the Christian God...the Christian God is jealous and judgemental.....

Originally posted by Regret
It makes sense, but I cannot get over the forgetting aspect of the idea of reincarnation, that seems too limiting to me.

I understand, but reincarnation seems to be less limitted than the concepts of Heaven or Hell.