Ataru and Vaapad, because of the standard acrobatic manoeuvres and use of the force (Ataru) - limitless (Yoda shows this with Ataru (perfect offence, defence, and Vaapad is very similar to Ataru in that way, plus there is a lot more to it as well (emotions, unpredictability, technique etc.)))
With Makashi, it's almost as unlimited as Ataru or Vaapad, as you only grow more adept at dueling as your force mastery and experience (concentration) improve.
Niman because it has so much to it, so many different aspects.
Soresu because it is the ultimate defencive form.
There isn't that much to Shien. All it pretty much has is offence, and Vaapad and Ataru own it in that regard.
Shii-Cho is too simple.
How the hell is Niman even above anything aside from Shii-Cho?
"It is considered the "diplomat's Form" because it is less intensivein its demands than the other disciplines, allowing Jedi to spend more time developing their skills in perception, political strategy, and negotiation. . . In an increasingly dangerous galaxy, the "diplomat's Form" might not be enough against serious combat dangers. . .However, full masters of other Forms sometimes consider Form VI to be insufficiently demanding."
--Star Wars Insider, Issue 62.
^
Niman is not a very good form. It may have many aspects of other forms (Shii-Cho, Soresu, Ataru, Djem So), but it makes room so as the user can focus on political attributes, and less on actual combat hence "diplomat's Form".
Is there any evidence of Lightsaber forms playing a significant part in battles?
For example, if Anakin didn't use Shien, by default Dooku would have killed him? Even if the next 30 years of the saga went around him? Do you think Anakin maybe won because he is, arguably, the main character in the saga, and that his lightsaber form has nothing to do with it?
Do you think the reason for the Jedi death toll on Geonosis was because the event had to appear catastrophic? And not because all the ones who died miracuously turn out to be Niman practioners etc?
I think it's more than pure coincidence that all the Niman users were killed. Niman attempts to balance all the forms, and while it seems good, you don't master at any particular thing.
It's a still good form though.
I believe that no form is greater than the other. I mean, if Ataru or Shien or Shii-Cho was the best form, why don't all the Jedi learn that from a beginning age. That's why I believe the lightsabers form make Triangles.
Vapaad <,=,> Ataru
Makashi-Soresu-Shien form a triangle:
Soresu > Shien > Makashi > Soresu
I AM NOT SURE but I believe Shii-Cho-Niman-Jar'Kai form a triangle:
Shii-Cho < Jar'Kai < Niman < Shii-Cho
Finally in NJO, I believe the Fast-Medium-Strong Triangle is this:
Fast > Medium > Strong > Fast
Originally posted by exanda kane
Is there any evidence of Lightsaber forms playing a significant part in battles?For example, if Anakin didn't use Shien, by default Dooku would have killed him? Even if the next 30 years of the saga went around him? Do you think Anakin maybe won because he is, arguably, the main character in the saga, and that his lightsaber form has nothing to do with it?
Do you think the reason for the Jedi death toll on Geonosis was because the event had to appear catastrophic? And not because all the ones who died miracuously turn out to be Niman practioners etc?
These are out of story explanations though.
Originally posted by Advent
How the hell is Niman even above anything aside from Shii-Cho?"It is considered the [b]"diplomat's Form" because it is less intensive
in its demands than the other disciplines, allowing Jedi to spend more time developing their skills in perception, political strategy, and negotiation. . . In an increasingly dangerous galaxy, the "diplomat's Form" might not be enough against serious combat dangers. . .However, full masters of other Forms sometimes consider Form VI to be insufficiently demanding."--Star Wars Insider, Issue 62.
^
Niman is not a very good form. It may have many aspects of other forms (Shii-Cho, Soresu, Ataru, Djem So), but it makes room so as the user can focus on political attributes, and less on actual combat hence "diplomat's Form". [/B]
Potential wise, it's better than Soresu, Shien and Shii-Cho.
Originally posted by Adas
Potential wise, it's better than Soresu, Shien and Shii-Cho.
Explain how "potential wise" it's better than Soresu and Shien? It's less demanding, and intense. It is suited for diplomat's, and political missions. Soresu is noted as making "true master seem invincible", as though that's an obvious exaggeration, we can infer from that that they're defenses are near impenetrable. Now, you're reasonings for Niman having more potential is what? Because it just has four forms' aspects to it? That doesn't mean it balances them out, nor even masters them to the degree a full master does. Niman users died on Geonosis for a reason.
Originally posted by Advent
Explain how "potential wise" it's better than Soresu and Shien? It's less demanding, and intense. It is suited for diplomat's, and political missions. Soresu is noted as making "true master seem invincible", as though that's an obvious exaggeration, we can infer from that that they're defenses are near impenetrable. Now, you're reasonings for Niman having more potential is what? Because it just has four forms' aspects to it? That doesn't mean it balances them out, nor even masters them to the degree a full master does. Niman users died on Geonosis for a reason.
Niman does have more potential than Soresu Motoko, because there are more apects to it. Defence, offence and pure skill - a true master would be incredible. Soresu only has defence.
Originally posted by Adas
Niman does have more potential than Soresu Motoko, because there are more apects to it. Defence, offence and pure skill - a true master would be incredible. Soresu only has defence.
In terms of having a broader variety, yes it has more "potential". In terms of being better than Soresu, it is not. Someone who masters Niman to the highest degree compete with someone who has mastered either Shien or Soresu to the highest degree (assuming both combatants have equal skill in their respective forms)? My money is on either the Soresu or Shien master. We know that Jedi that fully mastered other forms deem Niman "insufficiently demanding". We know Niman was chosen by diplomats for a reason.
We know Niman users died, obviously if they were any good - there'd be no reason as to why they were completely wiped out practically. Its variety does not fully master each of those (defense/offense) to as high of a degree as other forms, balance does not equal much in Star Wars. They do not excel in the least bit in anything. This is made apparent. Shien exploits the defensive ability of Soresu, and turns it into an offensive move (deflecting bolts), and it focuses on strength, power, and obviously has defensive aspects as it was made because Soresu was too passive, but of course wants to keep the "invincible" aspect of Soresu.
You make the point that Soresu only focuses on defense, I ask - then why isn't Niman above of Ataru? Obi-Wan switched to Soresu, "since it was apparent to Kenobi that Jinn's defense was insufficient against the Sith techniques of Darth Maul." In other words, defenses are not as good. Ataru is an offensive form. Reason why it's above Niman?
It all depends on the user, if a Jedi that used Niman focused on combat instead, it would be deadly, likely more so than Makashi, in a Lightsaber fight.
Most Jedi that use it don't really practice Lightsaber combat is what I'm saying, if they did, they would become pretty damn strong
But this topic is why Juyo is incomplete
Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
It all depends on the user, if a Jedi that used Niman focused on combat instead, it would be deadly, likely more so than Makashi, in a Lightsaber fight.
That's probably the most unsupported assumption made. Deadlier than the lightsaber to lightsaber form? Yes, in some quantum dream world perhaps.
If, in fact, this theory is correct - why do no Jedi put Niman to the practice in that manner? If Niman is honestly so deadly in combat, and has, as Adas said, "offense/defense/skill", what reasons is there that no Jedi does not use that? It is obvious that this is incorrect. Also, what's the reason all the Niman practitioners died on Geonosis? You can't honestly expect every Niman user to be a diplomat, it's just suited best for them, because of its practices, so as I posed the question - answer it. You are ignoring statements made, and reasonings. We know Jedi masters deem Niman "insufficient", we know Niman users died, and we know it's the "diplomat's form".
Niman is made to be less intensive, and demanding. You're trying to practically change the form.
Most Jedi that use it don't really practice Lightsaber combat is what I'm saying, if they did, they would become pretty damn strong
Pee Are Oh Vee Eee Eye Tee.
Show me sufficient evidence that Niman practitioners would be strong. They only take aspects of four other forms. They do not master them fully, they do not fully utilize them. Being balanced does not mean you'd be any better. Soresu masters are considered invincible, Makashi practitioners are considered utterly precise and powerful. From the Insider Article of Issue 62:
"Form V represents a worthy discipline prepared for any threat."
So, as we see Shien is ready for "any threat". Blaster bolts? No problem. They redirect them back at the user (taking Soresu's defensive maneuvers, and applying them offensively). Other lightsaber users? Djem So generates a lot of kinetic energy as we know, and was designed because while a Soresu master is practically unbeatable, it was considered "too passive", ergo Form V was developed. Niman is considered the "diplomat's Form". Great. If it had potential, why is it that no apparent Jedi actually picked up on that? Answer that please. Why is it that trained for decades martial masters did not pick up on that quality? Of course, somehow you can make that inference, but the actual beings cannot? And they'd have the utmost knowledge of it given they actually know exactly what they're talking about.
Niman practitioners would be "deadly" if they focused on lightsaber combat, even more so than the ultimate refinement of lightsaber combat (Makashi)? Prove it.
Niman users would be any better than Shien or Soresu? Prove it.
Where is the actual evidence for your claims? A variety does not equal better skill. Especially from something like Djem So, where we know it's offensive, but also defensive in its practices (redirecting bolts, etc.), and is considered to be prepared for "any threat". As for Niman, considered "diplomat's Form", "less intensive", "insufficient", etc.
Originally posted by Advent
That's probably the most unsupported assumption made. Deadlier than the lightsaber to lightsaber form? Yes, in some quantum dream world perhaps.If, in fact, this theory is correct - why do no Jedi put Niman to the practice in that manner? If Niman is honestly so deadly in combat, and has, as Adas said, "offense/defense/skill", what reasons is there that [b]no
Jedi does not use that? It is obvious that this is incorrect. Also, what's the reason all the Niman practitioners died on Geonosis? You can't honestly expect every Niman user to be a diplomat, it's just suited best for them, because of its practices, so as I posed the question - answer it. You are ignoring statements made, and reasonings. We know Jedi masters deem Niman "insufficient", we know Niman users died, and we know it's the "diplomat's form".Niman is made to be less intensive, and demanding. You're trying to practically change the form.
Pee Are Oh Vee Eee Eye Tee.
Show me sufficient evidence that Niman practitioners would be strong. They only take aspects of four other forms. They do not master them fully, they do not fully utilize them. Being balanced does not mean you'd be any better. Soresu masters are considered invincible, Makashi practitioners are considered utterly precise and powerful. From the Insider Article of Issue 62:
"Form V represents a worthy discipline prepared for any threat."
So, as we see Shien is ready for "any threat". Blaster bolts? No problem. They redirect them back at the user (taking Soresu's defensive maneuvers, and applying them offensively). Other lightsaber users? Djem So generates a lot of kinetic energy as we know, and was designed because while a Soresu master is practically unbeatable, it was considered "too passive", ergo Form V was developed. Niman is considered the "diplomat's Form". Great. If it had potential, why is it that no apparent Jedi actually picked up on that? Answer that please. Why is it that trained for decades martial masters did not pick up on that quality? Of course, somehow you can make that inference, but the actual beings cannot? And they'd have the utmost knowledge of it given they actually know exactly what they're talking about.
Niman practitioners would be "deadly" if they focused on lightsaber combat, even more so than the ultimate refinement of lightsaber combat (Makashi)? Prove it.
Niman users would be any better than Shien or Soresu? Prove it.
Where is the actual evidence for your claims? A variety does not equal better skill. Especially from something like Djem So, where we know it's offensive, but also defensive in its practices (redirecting bolts, etc.), and is considered to be prepared for "any threat". As for Niman, considered "diplomat's Form", "less intensive", "insufficient", etc. [/B]
Only you could try and turn what I said into a debate ❌ smartass
Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Only you could try and turn what I said into a debate ❌ smartass
Because I want to express my disagreement of your statements perhaps? Because I question your claims? Yes, of course I'm going to "turn something into a debate" when it's not a final "debate ending" statement, nor even correct. I do apologize if I don't like to let unsupported comments slide past the radar. So, you do have my sincerest apologies.
Originally posted by Advent
Because I want to express my disagreement of your statements perhaps? Because I question your claims? Yes, of course I'm going to "turn something into a debate" when it's not a final "debate ending" statement, nor even correct. I do apologize if I don't like to let unsupported comments slide past the radar. So, you do have my sincerest apologies.
My point was based on theory, because the Niman Style gives you Moderate skill in each form, it would give you what you need to Master a few, and possibly make an even better fighting style by taking say, Ataru and Makashi(who knows if this would work but what the hell) and using each of their main qualities.
This topic is about why Juyo is incomplete
Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
My point was based on theory, because the Niman Style gives you Moderate skill in each form, it would give you what you need to Master a few, and possibly make an even better fighting style by taking say, Ataru and Makashi(who knows if this would work but what the hell) and using each of their main qualities.
Is that why most Niman user are not masters of other forms? Niman does not give you enough to master a form. The form's principle is exactly this that it demands less than other forms, you are completely disregarding official sources, and really - you make no sense. Niman does not allow you to master another form.
And we know that Niman does not take from Makashi whatsoever. And you're not addressing your points as Niman. You're addressing it as if someone masters separate forms, and then combines their key elements. This is not the form Niman. You're trying to create a completely new form, you're not talking about Niman.
You're misconceiving Niman users to be masters of each form, and take key aspects of such, and creating a super form. Again, as I see you skirted my questions: why is it that no apparent Jedi picked up that Niman was any good for combat? Could it be that *gasp* it's not? Obviously, it is not. Full masters of other forms deem Niman "I-N-S-U-F-F-I-C-I-E-N-T". Now tell me, why is that if Niman, in your eyes, is so good?
Niman was called the "diplomat's Form" for a reason. Niman was deemed "insufficient" and called "less intensive" for a reason. May I direct you to Star Wars Insider, Issue 62 yet again:
"...keeping with the Jedi quest to achieve true harmony and justice without resorting to the rule of power."
As we see here, Niman is not made for power, but to peacefully resolve conflicts through diplomacy. This is contrary to Djem So's motto of "victory through superior firepower". Now, can we see the difference? Can we see why Djem So > Niman? I do hope so.
"It is considered the "diplomat's Form" because it is less intensive in its demands than the other disciplines"
Ah, the famous "diplomat's Form". As I've been saying, it's not demanding, and it's by far the least intensive form aside from possibly Shii-Cho. We do know that other masters think that Niman is "insufficiently demanding" in terms of combat ability. And guess what? Look at Geonosis - they were right.
"Form VI well suits the modern Jedi's role in the galaxy, in which a Knight overly trained in martial combat might be at a loss to resolve a complex political conflict between star systems"
This is just proving that Niman is made practically specifically for diplomatic Jedi. My god. It is not a combat form that is deadly in the least bit. Please quit skirting around actual canon material, and stop being so daft.
Obviously, it even states that a "Knight overly treained in martial combat" is at a loss for diplomatic missions, in which Niman is suited for. Why is it that Niman is best suited for diplomats and not combative Jedi?
"In an increasingly dangerous galaxy, the "diplomat's Form" might not be enough against serious combat dangers."
So, as we can see, Niman users are not deadly, and they can come up short very often. As what we know above, and the fact they were wiped out at Geonosis. We also know that Niman tries to keep moderation - as that's its emphasis - so, if a Niman user were to go up against a Soresu user, what makes you think a moderate level of offense can overcome a fully defensive form (as it'd be most likely that the Niman user was on the offense)? Likewise with Djem So, what makes you think that a Niman users' moderate defense is impenetrable to a fully offensive form? Even if the Niman user tried to use the attack/defend crap, we know that Djem So - while is an offensive form, utilizes defensive tactics. And again, the Niman user would be conquered. Keep in mind, I'm discussing it as if it's two masters, who have equal "skill" in terms of mastering their form.
So, in the end, all I have to say is that you have no basis for your argument, and that a canon source, logical deduction, and such > your unsupported assumptions. If you are going to respond, please do not just write one blanket statement that doesn't even address my whole post, and at least write half of what I've wrote. As I said to Rampant, you've unfortunately neglected to answer my post at all - where I call to question your lack of evidence or justification for anything. So, do try and do that next time.
This topic is about why Juyo is incomplete
And?