Why is Juyo seen as "Incomplete"

Originally posted by Advent
Is that why most Niman user are not masters of other forms? Niman does not give you enough to master a form. The form's principle is exactly this that it demands less than other forms, you are completely disregarding official sources, and really - you make no sense. Niman does not allow you to master another form.

And we know that Niman [b]does not take from Makashi whatsoever. And you're not addressing your points as Niman. You're addressing it as if someone masters separate forms, and then combines their key elements. This is not the form Niman. You're trying to create a completely new form, you're not talking about Niman.

You're misconceiving Niman users to be masters of each form, and take key aspects of such, and creating a super form. Again, as I see you skirted my questions: why is it that no apparent Jedi picked up that Niman was any good for combat? Could it be that *gasp* it's not? Obviously, it is not. Full masters of other forms deem Niman "I-N-S-U-F-F-I-C-I-E-N-T". Now tell me, why is that if Niman, in your eyes, is so good?

Niman was called the "diplomat's Form" for a reason. Niman was deemed "insufficient" and called "less intensive" for a reason. May I direct you to Star Wars Insider, Issue 62 yet again:

"...keeping with the Jedi quest to achieve true harmony and justice without resorting to the rule of power."

As we see here, Niman is not made for power, but to peacefully resolve conflicts through diplomacy. This is contrary to Djem So's motto of "victory through superior firepower". Now, can we see the difference? Can we see why Djem So > Niman? I do hope so.

"It is considered the "diplomat's Form" because it is less intensive in its demands than the other disciplines"

Ah, the famous "diplomat's Form". As I've been saying, it's not demanding, and it's by far the least intensive form aside from possibly Shii-Cho. We do know that other masters think that Niman is "insufficiently demanding" in terms of combat ability. And guess what? Look at Geonosis - they were right.

"Form VI well suits the modern Jedi's role in the galaxy, in which a Knight overly trained in martial combat might be at a loss to resolve a complex political conflict between star systems"

This is just proving that Niman is made practically specifically for diplomatic Jedi. My god. It is not a combat form that is deadly in the least bit. Please quit skirting around actual canon material, and stop being so daft.

Obviously, it even states that a "Knight overly treained in martial combat" is at a loss for diplomatic missions, in which Niman is suited for. Why is it that Niman is best suited for diplomats and not combative Jedi?

"In an increasingly dangerous galaxy, the "diplomat's Form" might not be enough against serious combat dangers."

So, as we can see, Niman users are not deadly, and they can come up short very often. As what we know above, and the fact they were wiped out at Geonosis. We also know that Niman tries to keep moderation - as that's its emphasis - so, if a Niman user were to go up against a Soresu user, what makes you think a moderate level of offense can overcome a fully defensive form (as it'd be most likely that the Niman user was on the offense)? Likewise with Djem So, what makes you think that a Niman users' moderate defense is impenetrable to a fully offensive form? Even if the Niman user tried to use the attack/defend crap, we know that Djem So - while is an offensive form, utilizes defensive tactics. And again, the Niman user would be conquered. Keep in mind, I'm discussing it as if it's two masters, who have equal "skill" in terms of mastering their form.

So, in the end, all I have to say is that you have no basis for your argument, and that a canon source, logical deduction, and such > your unsupported assumptions. If you are going to respond, please do not just write one blanket statement that doesn't even address my whole post, and at least write half of what I've wrote. As I said to Rampant, you've unfortunately neglected to answer my post at all - where I call to question your lack of evidence or justification for anything. So, do try and do that next time.

And? [/B]

I'm not going to bother responding to that, you lost me in your 1st paragraph ramblings. If you bothered to read my posts instead of foaming at the mouth when you can find something to tear apart, it was based on theory, Niman being a Combination form, SHOULD make it more powerful than other forms.

Why is Juyo signifigant here? Maybe because that's what the thread is about....

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
I'm not going to bother responding to that, you lost me in your 1st paragraph ramblings.

Sorry, but that post was more intricate, and in depth than just some craphouse ramblings. You can't respond to it anyways because it is based off canon material, whereas your "theory" is based off speculation, and unsupported assumptions.

If you bothered to read my posts instead of foaming at the mouth when you can find something to tear apart,

Um, what do you think I did? I read your posts exactly, and responded to them in manner. You're going to claim *I* didn't read your posts when it's obvious you don't read mine (by own admittance, and fact you respond with one blanket statement)? You truly are ridiculous Krieger.

it was based on theory,

Yes, however I dismantled that "theory".

Niman being a Combination form, SHOULD make it more powerful than other forms.

Sadly, that is not the case. Your theory isn't backed up by facts, aside from "combo. form". We do know that Niman isn't a good form in the least bit, hence why they all died on Geonosis, and why it's considered the "diplomat's Form". You fail to respond to my posts correctly, especially when I call into your lack of evidence. You do not justify anything either.

To claim that I'm at a loss here is ridiculous when it's completely obvious that you have no case, and I destroyed whatever little assumptions you had.

Why is Juyo signifigant here? Maybe because that's what the thread is about....

No, no. You must've misunderstood (as seems to be the case), I don't care if the thread is about Juyo. I'm expressing my disagreement with the rankings of Niman, and the theories that preside with it. Just because it got "off topic" doesn't mean I cannot still talk about it as half threads go into another direction (discussing x vs y, then it turns into x vs z). And I also can and will disagree and argue against things that:

1.) Aren't true.
2.) Are heavily unsupported.

In any case, obviously no one knows enough about the subject to answer your question properly, so quit pressing it.

Originally posted by Advent

Sadly, that is [b]not the case. Your theory isn't backed up by facts, aside from "combo. form". We do know that Niman isn't a good form in the least bit, hence why they all died on Geonosis, and why it's considered the "diplomat's Form". [/B]

hmm each form has its pros and cons ya know. niman is more of a balanced form said so by master kavar, he said no ups no downs on onderon but i cant remember.

correct me if im wrong advent. 😠

Originally posted by ESB Vader
hmm each form has its pros and cons ya know. niman is more of a balanced form said so by master kavar,

We already know Niman takes aspects from four forms (Ataru, Shii-Cho, Soresu, Shien), and attempts to balance them out in moderation, but that's hardly a pro. For example, if they attempt to attack a Soresu master with moderate offense, it will be to no avail. Likewise, if a Djem So user is attacking, they will be overwhelmed by only having a moderate defense. And Djem So probably has a better defense as it was trying to keep the "invincibility of Form III".

he said no ups no downs on onderon but i cant remember.

Yes, however, I think I'll trust actual canon sources over him. We do know from the Star Wars Insider, Issue 62 that "full masters of other Forms sometimes consider Form VI to be insufficient". So, I will take the plural (masters) opinions over Kavar's possible quote.

In any case, Niman does have many downs to it. For one, it doesn't even focus on combat. It's called the "diplomat's Form" for a reason! As I've been trying to relay the entire time, it leaves space so the Jedi can focus on political attributes. Another would be the fact that it is "less intensive in its demands than the other disciplines", and as already mentioned, if it had no downs then why do fully trained Jedi Masters (plural) deem Niman "insufficient".

Niman is probably the second worst form, next to Shii-Cho of course. Hence why they all died at Geonosis.

Niman is probably the second worst form, next to Shii-Cho of course. Hence why they all died at Geonosis.

How is Shii-Cho worse? Kit Fisto used that form quite well, especially in the Clone Wars series. Didn't Cestus Deception Kit beat Cestus Deception Kenobi?

Yes, however, I think I'll trust actual canon sources over him. We do know from the Star Wars Insider, Issue 62 that "full masters of other Forms sometimes consider Form VI to be insufficient". So, I will take the plural (masters) opinions over Kavar's possible quote.

Well Kavar was a weaponmaster of his time, so he may be right. However, Niman is not a good form to use.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
Well Kavar was a weaponmaster of his time, so he may be right. However, Niman is not a good form to use.

Oh, really? Well I suppose the "masters" that deem Niman "insufficient" aren't jack shit then? Aside from the fact canon material disproves Kavar's quote of "no ups, no downs". In combat, it's obviously down - by being deemed "insufficient" by masters - not just one, by not focusing on combat, and being "less intensive in its demands than the other disciplines". It does have "ups" actually. Again, from the Star Wars Insider, Issue 62:

"Form VI well suits the modern Jedi's role in the galaxy, in which a Knight overly trained in martial combat might be at a loss to resolve a complex political conflict between star systems.

ok... isnt this about juyo?

People can still discuss Juyo. What's holding them up exactly? They don't have to bother to read the discussion about Niman, nor address it to post.

ok i do know shien djrm so is a strength form makashi is a fencing.

what is juyo form exactly? what are its ascpets. i do know vaapaad refelcts a darksiders own hate against him

Originally posted by Advent
Sorry, but that post was more intricate, and in depth than just some craphouse ramblings. You can't respond to it anyways because it is based off canon material, whereas your "theory" is based off speculation, and unsupported assumptions.

Um, what do you think I did? I read your posts exactly, and responded to them in manner. You're going to claim *I* didn't read your posts when it's obvious you don't read mine (by own admittance, and fact you respond with one blanket statement)? You truly are ridiculous Krieger.

Yes, however I dismantled that "theory".

Sadly, that is [b]not the case. Your theory isn't backed up by facts, aside from "combo. form". We do know that Niman isn't a good form in the least bit, hence why they all died on Geonosis, and why it's considered the "diplomat's Form". You fail to respond to my posts correctly, especially when I call into your lack of evidence. You do not justify anything either.

To claim that I'm at a loss here is ridiculous when it's completely obvious that you have no case, and I destroyed whatever little assumptions you had.

No, no. You must've misunderstood (as seems to be the case), I don't care if the thread is about Juyo. I'm expressing my disagreement with the rankings of Niman, and the theories that preside with it. Just because it got "off topic" doesn't mean I cannot still talk about it as half threads go into another direction (discussing x vs y, then it turns into x vs z). And I also can and will disagree and argue against things that:

1.) Aren't true.
2.) Are heavily unsupported.

In any case, obviously no one knows enough about the subject to answer your question properly, so quit pressing it. [/B]

You tore up nothing, as said, IN THEORY, it SHOULD be better, but this is Star Wars where things don't have to make sense. A balanced form would give you an edge on the battlefield, you're capable of fighting all enemies, instead of just 1 type, (Soresu=Lots of Blasters, Makashi=1 Lightsaber etc etc) My theory doesn't need to be supported, in a more "Real Life" situation, it is superior to all others, an even ability at killing everything

Muahah Krieger ..I got to agree with teh lady ..

Heyyyy Secretus, your back! Man, have I missed you.

niman would give you the edge over average enmies, like space pirates or thugs, ect, ect. it can be used in almost al situations but, as said above, you dont specialise in a specific form, making you vunerable to more elite saber users, blaster wielders, ect.

as for juyo:

Form VII: Juyo/Vaapad was the final form of the seven forms of lightsaber combat.

Dubbed the Way of the Vornskr or The Ferocity Form, Juyo was originally considered an incomplete form for millennia. Generally
viewed as undeveloped and rarely used by the Jedi and the Sith, Juyo was not seen as one of the main forms until it was further
developed by Jedi Master Mace Windu, who completed it with his Vaapad fighting style, thereby finally completing Form VII. (In 22
BBY, Palpatine noted that he had only ever heard of six forms; Mace's reply indicated that this had been the case—until he finessed
Juyo into Vaapad.) It is popular belief that Windu's technique was inspired by the flailing movements of the Vaapad creature of
Sarapin, a beast which at one point made an indelible impression upon the Korun master - it was said to be impossible to tell how
many tentacles a Vaapad had until it was dead.

The opening stance for Vaapad was the upper body, including hands, being drawn back while still holding the lightsaber pointed
towards an opponent. Another ready stance of Vaapad consisted of a constant near-invisible weave of lethal energy generated by
slashes of a whirring lightsaber blade.

The most challenging and demanding of all forms, Form VII required intense focus, a high degree of skill, and mastery of other forms.
Only a few Jedi ever mastered Vaapad fully: Mace Windu, Depa Billaba and Sora Bulq, who instructed Quinlan Vos in a few of its
basics. Sora Bulq helped Windu develop Vaapad, but Bulq proved too weak to master the flow of the light and dark sides of the Force
generated by the use of the technique, and fell to the dark side. Mace Windu noted that Vaapad mastered Bulq, not the other way
around. Depa Billaba, Windu's Padawan, similarly fell to the dark side when combining Vaapad with the rigors of war. Before her fate
was sealed, Mace noted that Depa's bladework had already surpassed his Vaapad. General Grievous used his technical prowess to
copy Vaapad to a degree when he fought Mace Windu on Coruscant, though due to his lack of Force sensitivity, he could not truly
master it. But it was possible that Grievous had already learned the moves of Juyo, as Dooku noted that Grievous and his guards
mastered all the seven classic combat forms.

Intrepid, somewhat direct movements were used in combination with advanced techniques involving Force-powered jumps and
motions. Form VII did not appear as fancy as Form IV, as there were not moves like twirling and flipping, but the technical
requirements were much higher. Vaapad used seemingly free-wheeling and open movements, but with utter control on the part of the
wielder. In Windu's duel with Palpatine, Windu constantly had his arms spread wide, torso open to stabbing motions by Palpatine, as
though Windu was daring him to strike. While appearing reckless on the surface, Windu knew exactly what he was doing. The end
result, if practiced correctly, was a very unpredictable lightsaber style. The staccato swings and flow of the form made it seem as if
the attacks were not linked—but in reality, it was merely confusing the opponent.

Form VII demanded the emotional and physical intensity of Form V, but it much more effectively controlled it—if mastered. Form VII,
when fully mastered, resulted in extraordinary power.

However, Vaapad bordered on the edge of falling to the dark side, as it channelled one's anger and darkness into the attack. Only
Windu's mastery and concentration on the light side prevented him from succumbing to his own anger, which is why Vaapad was
rarely practiced and very dangerous. As noted above, the only other known practitioners of Vaapad, Sora Bulq and Depa Billaba both
fell to the dark side of the Force. Darth Maul, a Sith Lord who appeared to have mastered Juyo, was so immersed in the dark side,
yet so much in control of his anger that he could employ his own deadly variant of Juyo without fear. Coupled with his martial
prowess, Darth Maul used this variant to defeat several skilled Jedi, including Master Qui-Gon Jinn. However, Darth Maul only devoted
to the Form's physical focus, thus he remained silent during the duels on Tatooine and Naboo. Maul desired pure physical victory,
rather than the "higher" Sith tradition of Dun Möch, which could dominate the opponent's spirit through taunts that expose inner
doubts and weaknesses.

With that said, Vaapad was not just a fighting style. It was a state of mind and a power. The state of mind required that a user of
Vaapad allow himself to enjoy the fight. He had to give himself over to the thrill of battle, the rush of winning. Vaapad was a path that
led through the penumbra of the dark side. The power of Vaapad was simple: it was a channel for one's inner darkness; and it was a
reflecting device. With strict control, a Jedi's own emotions and inner darkness could be changed into a weapon of the light.

Vaapad was also described as "a superconducting loop," with the user on one end and the opponent on the other. It was able to take
the powers of the opponent and reflect it back at them. In his fight with Palpatine, Mace Windu used the Chancellor's own speed and
hatred against him, reflecting it back against the Sith Lord and using it as his own power. Also, when Palpatine unleashed his Force
lightning on Mace, the Jedi was able to use his lightsaber, with the power of Vaapad, to reflect the lightning back at him. However,
because Palpatine was probably a master of the Sith variant of Juyo as well, he fed the power of Force lightning with his own pain,
thus intensified the energetic attack despite his suffering.

The power of Vaapad was quite incredible: it was at once a form of lightsaber combat, a state of mind, and an actual tangible power.
To use it required great mastery, discipline and, above all else, purity of heart and spirit. Vaapad users were intense, focused and
introverted. There were even signs of pent-up hostility in them.

New information suggests that Mace Windu's creation of Vaapad was less a true "creation" of a form, and more a refinement of a form
that, because of its difficulty, remained largely unused. Around the time of the Jedi Civil War, Juyo was already the lightsaber form
relied upon by the greatest of the Jedi, indicating that Juyo was indeed a complete and effective form for millennia before Mace Windu
finessed it with Vaapad, although it was also possible that the ancient Juyo masters and their skills became the casualties of war. It
was believed that Vaapad died with Mace Windu, as he was the last Jedi to have mastered it (disregarding Depa Billaba, whose fate
after the enaction of Order 66 is still unknown; although Quinlan Vos knew some of its moves, his proper training of Vaapad had never
begun). After the final destruction of Palpatine, it was presumed that the whole Form VII died with him.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
I think it's more than pure coincidence that all the Niman users were killed. Niman attempts to balance all the forms, and while it seems good, you don't master at any particular thing.

It's a still good form though.

I believe that no form is greater than the other. I mean, if Ataru or Shien or Shii-Cho was the best form, why don't all the Jedi learn that from a beginning age. That's why I believe the lightsabers form make Triangles.

Vapaad <,=,> Ataru

Makashi-Soresu-Shien form a triangle:

Soresu > Shien > Makashi > Soresu

I AM NOT SURE but I believe Shii-Cho-Niman-Jar'Kai form a triangle:

Shii-Cho < Jar'Kai < Niman < Shii-Cho

Finally in NJO, I believe the Fast-Medium-Strong Triangle is this:

Fast > Medium > Strong > Fast

Not that I necessarily disagree with it, but if I may, I would like to know how you came up with this.