Who's the best swordsman?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, except...no. It's canon he mastered every technique so your opinion is invalid.

Palpatine's not a dumb ass either so he must have practiced too. Your logic really sucks.

My sources are outdated? Sorry, kid, but sources don't get outdated. Unless they're contradicted they remain, and Palp knowing everything and killing Jedi was never once contradicted. Even Maul thinks on the few Jedi he and 'his master' killed in Shadow Hunter.

Sorry, but the new things don't contradict the old!

Oooh, and DE Sidious knew Force Drain and used it and since there's no retcon and sources even said sidious drained the inhabitants of Byss AFTER KOTOR 2 came out in 2004...well, there goes your argument. Seems poor little Kreia's a bit out of her league.

o i c fanboy so the book says so means he did? bull shit, if he had really "mastered" all the techniques he would have used plagueis method to stop his last clone from dehydration, owned fanbrat o and how its gonna work? ever heard of manipulating the midi chlorians to keep one alive?

yes DE source book is outdated now since it came out so long ago

O so not outdated then i should be reading the world record book of what happened 50 years ago and should not listen to what comes out today, lightsnake ur logic sucks ass, fanboy accept it.

and how the fu*k is palpatine suppose to practise as a spirit for 6 years.

once again lightsnake OWNED you cant explain how his skills remained tho for 6 years floating as a spirit.

if sidious force drain came out after 2004 then show me the evidense, you got that shit from wikipedia didnt you? or wookiepedia, they cant even say where it came from, dumbass you got owned AGAIN and i will back down if you show me the evidence. i read the same shit from wookie and wiki

dumbass the book only claimed he mastered every technique and yet cant prove it, even sidious admited in ROTS "a power to cheat death has ONLY been mastered by one BUT if we work together we might find a way" thats palpatine to anakin.

Advent, baby... it's not that crucial... trust me. lol

By the time that Obi Wan makes the statement, "four of the greatest...," he, himself is a Jedi Master, meaning that there is probably the SLIGHTEST chance that just MAYBE he knows what the hell he's talking about...

Further, after he states that Sidious took on "four of the greatest" by himself, he tells Yoda that he and Yoda together don't stand a chance taking on Sidious, with which Yoda agrees.

"Of the greatest" clearly doesn't mean they are the best in any way. Just they are among the best. Agen, Saesee, and Kit aren't on top or anything like that as we obviously know. And also, they are far from "the best ever". And Kenobi's dialogue of "our Order has ever produced" counts for jack shit when you consider Kenobi doesn't even know a quarter of all the swordsmen the Jedi Order has produced. Seeing as it stems back thousands of years.

When I hear the word "greatest" I get the feeling that the person is making a comparison with anyone, including those from past generations. For example, when Muhammad Ali shouts, "I am the greatest!" he's not meaning he's just the best boxer of the era in which he boxed; rather, he means he's the GOAT (Greatest of All Time). With that in mind, and considering that Obi Wan had access to any/all of the holocrons in the archives as a "Master" (not to mention a 900 year-old Jedi in agreement with him), I would think that he probably knew who some of the best duelists were.

Regarding "telepathy" and my suggestion that Palpatine called to Anakin:

No, he did not. If we're talking about the same thing, all you hear are Palpatine's voice speaking. I could just as easily say it was just the words spoken to Anakin off screen repeating in his head as no other material concedes to what you're saying.

I'm taking into consideration that the words in Anakin's head were different from what Palpatine told him earlier (in the movie). I'm not saying it's the gospel truth, but it's simply my OWN interpretation that Palpatine was calling to Anakin. I'll admit that this scene is rather vague, though. By the same token, as this is somewhat ambiguous, like so many other things, you can't say with 100% that he's absolutely NOT calling to Anakin through the Force. What we DO know is that in the scene there is a voice that is Palpatine's saying something that Palpatine did NOT say to Anakin earlier. My interpretation is that he's using telepathy. Your interpretation is that Anakin is thinking the stuff in his head, and that's fine. We simply can't "disprove" each other on this point.

Sidious was only acting when Anakin arrived, before that - in the duel - he lost seemingly legit. And also, why the hell would Sidious be threatened? He had Anakin on the verge of corruption, and he was an easy pawn to bend to his will. He did trust Anakin after all, as that was his Shatterpoint.

It all depends on how you look at it. While I don't believe you can provide proof or disprove that Sidious started acting only when Anakin arrived, I believe that you make Sidious into a fool nearly. What we do know is that Sidious orchestrated everything: the war, the clones, Anakin's demise, etc. Are we going to say that he didn't know that Anakin would show up to his rescue? Of course he knew! Sidious was a mastermind who meticulously planned every single detail of his scheme to convert Anakin and take over the galaxy. Granted, he's not a god, so he couldn't foresee everything (like Vader's defeat on Mustafar), but he had twisted Anakin's mind to the point that he could control Anakin's actions. Putting on the act coincides with his name, afterall - "(In)Sidious."

Consular? Lol. Since when is there such a thing like "class" outside of KOTOR games? Considering he's better than Dooku with a blade, I'd say he's no pushover. He's obviously the best with a blade in the Order from what else we know.

Actually, Power Of The Jedi Sourcebook (RPG) lists Yoda as a "consular." I'm not saying it is or isn't "canon." Just that some authorities who work for GL say that if there were "classes" of Jedi, Yoda would be a "consular." Among the RPG gamers, it is known that consulars are not typically as strong in weaponry... But this is all my own opinion, to which I am happy to be entitled.

Still, I think there is something to be said in your opinion that Mace had beaten Sidious fair and square (I don't necessarily agree, but you do have some evidence that supports your argument), and if that's the case then your argument supports the point that Mace was a better swordsman than Yoda, as Yoda did not (and COULD NOT) defeat Sidious. This is according to the ROTS movie and novel... Even the StarWars.com databank states that Sidious "bested" Yoda (link is here).

Actually, Sidious was on par with Mace in swordsman ability. (Though didn't the novelisation say that Sidious suddenly slowed down at the near ending? Don't remember well). It was only Mace Shatterpoint ability which gave him the victory.
He has sparred with Yoda undoubtedly countless of times, and Yoda has always been the superior swordsman, according to himself as well. Yoda actually dodged Depa Billaba, Plo Koon and someone elses strikes easily, without even using a saber. If he had a saber, he would easily be able to hit them while dodging. Depa was regarded by Mace as a better swordsman than himself.

Either way, I belive Yoda is superior to Mace in swordsman ability, even if it is not by very much...

Originally posted by kamikz
Actually, Sidious was on par with Mace in swordsman ability. (Though didn't the novelisation say that Sidious suddenly slowed down at the near ending? Don't remember well). It was only Mace Shatterpoint ability which gave him the victory.
He has sparred with Yoda undoubtedly countless of times, and Yoda has always been the superior swordsman, according to himself as well. Yoda actually dodged Depa Billaba, Plo Koon and someone elses strikes easily, without even using a saber. If he had a saber, he would easily be able to hit them while dodging. Depa was regarded by Mace as a better swordsman than himself.

Either way, I belive Yoda is superior to Mace in swordsman ability, even if it is not by very much...

hmm i agree but against dark siders id say mace, shatterpoint and vapaad reflecting a dark side users hate agaisnt himself, but yoda has like 800 years of experience, idk why mace seems so close to him and sidious being just as good or prehaps better

I think that Sidious' being better than Yoda is a testament to Yoda's belief that the Jedi had remained stagnant while the Sith re-made themselves and became new.

Kamikz, I was checking out the Starwars.com website, reading the Expanded Universe info on Mace Windu, and it does say that the only ones ever to best Windu were Yoda and Dooku. It also says that Mace was "on par" with Yoda, but that could mean that he's equal to Yoda in authority or in prestige, not necessarily power. I don't know... What I do believe, though, is that Sidious was stronger than Yoda and Mace, though Mace did appear to win at a "test of sabres." I guess in the end, each Jedi/Sith has his own abilities or qualities that set him/her apart from the others. Each one has his/her own strengths and weaknesses and can defeat, or be defeated by, anyone "on any given Sunday."

Originally posted by ESB Vader
o i c fanboy so the book says so means he did? bull shit, if he had really "mastered" all the techniques he would have used plagueis method to stop his last clone from dehydration, owned fanbrat o and how its gonna work? ever heard of manipulating the midi chlorians to keep one alive?

yes DE source book is outdated now since it came out so long ago

O so not outdated then i should be reading the world record book of what happened 50 years ago and should not listen to what comes out today, lightsnake ur logic sucks ass, fanboy accept it.

and how the fu*k is palpatine suppose to practise as a spirit for 6 years.

once again lightsnake OWNED you cant explain how his skills remained tho for 6 years floating as a spirit.

if sidious force drain came out after 2004 then show me the evidense, you got that shit from wikipedia didnt you? or wookiepedia, they cant even say where it came from, dumbass you got owned AGAIN and i will back down if you show me the evidence. i read the same shit from wookie and wiki

dumbass the book only claimed he mastered every technique and yet cant prove it, even sidious admited in ROTS "a power to cheat death has ONLY been mastered by one BUT if we work together we might find a way" thats palpatine to anakin.

*YAWN* Prove the Plagueis technique existed. Oh, and Sidious said Plagueis could've saved others but not himself. Even the spirits of the Dark Lords couldn't save his clone body, try again!

Ok, the marvel comics and movies came out long ago, are they invalid? Sorry, but nope. Thing have been written recently in the last few years that even validate DE and what it wrote. Age =/= credibility, sorry, kid!

Palpatine wasn't a spirit for sixteen years, he was back in a body almost right after Endor thanks to Jeng Droga and back on Byss very shortly thereafter. Learn about what you try to say, capische?

Oooh, sorry, but DE is a fictional sourcebook that gives facts backed up by other material.

Hey, moron? Sidious used force drain on the inhabitants of Byss. In fact, Force Drain was invented as a technique in the Dark Empire sourcebook. Geez, the level of your ignorance...

Oh, and Palpatine couldn't be lying about the power to cheat death? Or he couldn't hahve discovered it later on? Since it was spelled out that since his clone had yielded to necrosis and couldn't be saved, welll...
Oh, prove the technique exists? Thanks. The Sourcebook gives facts that are backed up, and unfortunately for you, they're canon and you can't debate them unless you can form a coherent argument.

So, you throw out the insults and barely legible mangling of the English language only to get beat down again, sad...

Oh, btw? Dark Empire Sourcebook, Dark Side sourcebook.
Thanks for playing.

Originally posted by Nupe Kill Droma
By the time that Obi Wan makes the statement, "four of the greatest...," he, himself is a Jedi Master, meaning that there is probably the SLIGHTEST chance that just MAYBE he knows what the hell he's talking about...

Point being? When did I ever say otherwise? Oh? I didn't? Alright, now that's cleared up. "Of the greatest", keyword: of. Meaning among, not that they are. Qui-Gon Jinn is described as being "one of the Order's greatest swordsman", Count Dooku is described exactly as "one of the most respected and powerful Jedi Masters in the Order's twenty-five-thousand year history."

Is Count Dooku the best?

Short answer: No.

Is Qui-Gon Jinn the best?

Short answer: Hell no.

They are simply among the best. And even so, "best" is how many? 10? 100? 1.000? 10,000?

Further, after he states that Sidious took on "four of the greatest" by himself, he tells Yoda that he and Yoda together don't stand a chance taking on Sidious, with which Yoda agrees.[/b]

And? Since when are the Jedi known for their arrogance specifically? Obi-Wan especially, because he even gets turned off by the boasting Anakin does in the ROTS novelization. In fact, Yoda seems to think he'll be beating Sidious' ass later on in Palpatine's Chambers, so you were saying? He went there with the intent of stopping Sidious, he believed he could.

When I hear the word "greatest" I get the feeling that the person is making a comparison with anyone, including those from past generations. For example, when Muhammad Ali shouts, "I am the greatest!" he's not meaning he's just the best boxer of the era in which he boxed; rather, he means he's the GOAT (Greatest of All Time).

Is he the greatest though? How would he even know? Does he know every boxer that lived before him? He's boasting for one. For two, Ali was known for his arrogance, was he not? Doing shit to the referee, right?

Really, I don't know much of anything about any boxers, so I don't even know what the hell you're even talking about.

With that in mind, and considering that Obi Wan had access to any/all of the holocrons in the archives as a "Master" (not to mention a 900 year-old Jedi in agreement with him), I would think that he probably knew who some of the best duelists were.

Oh right, because Holocrons contain every fight and follow every single detail of one single person's history, huh? Don't be ridiculous, Nupe. As I already said, is Qui-Gon the best? Is Dooku?

No, but as Agen, Saesee, and Fisto are - they are among the best. Dooku is actually one of the best ever because he was described as "one of the most powerful Jedi in its twenty-five-thousand year history" by the omniscient narrator. The rest were described by Obi-Wan, a fallacious character who does not have the authority to make the call of "best ever".

I'm taking into consideration that the words in Anakin's head were different from what Palpatine told him earlier (in the movie). I'm not saying it's the gospel truth, but it's simply my OWN interpretation that Palpatine was calling to Anakin. I'll admit that this scene is rather vague, though. By the same token, as this is somewhat ambiguous, like so many other things, you can't say with 100% that he's absolutely NOT calling to Anakin through the Force. What we DO know is that in the scene there is a voice that is Palpatine's saying something that Palpatine did NOT say to Anakin earlier. My interpretation is that he's using telepathy. Your interpretation is that Anakin is thinking the stuff in his head, and that's fine. We simply can't "disprove" each other on this point.

*Dickzorz* Did you just read what I wrote, and decided to type a year-long paragraph on it with some meaningless statements? I said, "I could just as easily say yada, yada". Meaning I'm comparing what you said to another theory, and that you can't disprove it, but neither can you disprove what I said. Thanks for elaborating on something that didn't *need* it. The only thing I said that would seem as if I am firmly saying "No" is "No, he did not". But as went on further, it would seem to imply that I meant basically "proof?".

It all depends on how you look at it. While I don't believe you can provide proof or disprove that Sidious started acting only when Anakin arrived, I believe that you make Sidious into a fool nearly.

How? Because he was beaten? Big deal. He's not perfect. And ROTJ makes him into a fool enough.

What we do know is that Sidious orchestrated everything: the war, the clones, Anakin's demise, etc.

What do you mean by "Anakin's demise"? If you mean the persona that is Anakin Skywalker, then yes somewhat.

Are we going to say that he didn't know that Anakin would show up to his rescue? Of course he knew! Sidious was a mastermind who meticulously planned every single detail of his scheme to convert Anakin and take over the galaxy. Granted, he's not a god, so he couldn't foresee everything (like Vader's defeat on Mustafar), but he had twisted Anakin's mind to the point that he could control Anakin's actions. Putting on the act coincides with his name, afterall - "(In)Sidious."

"Your thoughts betray you, father. I feel the
good in you...the conflict." Recall that line? Recall who that was said to and where?

Yes, that's right. Luke Skywalker to Darth Vader. And guess who was right next to them sitting contently in his chair? Darth Sidious. Say like five minutes later he is bench pressed into a reactor core by the one armed cyborg standing right next to him. Did he orchestrate that? Did he foresee that?

But wait, for your theory to be correct, Sidious would have to know Anakin is coming. But he can't feel basic emotions - even after they were practically screamed across the room by Luke, and while his apprentice was standing right next to him? Mind you, Vader had been under him for twenty some years, so you're telling me he couldn't control Vader then?

Sidious can't foresee everything. He was legit. dropped by Mace Windu. They are descriped as equals, and it states Mace's Shatterpoint allowed Windu to put Sidious on his ass. So your theory begs question: why are they virtual equals with a blade, but Sidious orchestrated getting put on his ass?

Did he also orchestrate Mace kicking the saber out of his ass instead of a blade through his abdomen?

Actually, Power Of The Jedi Sourcebook (RPG) lists Yoda as a "consular." I'm not saying it is or isn't "canon." Just that some authorities who work for GL say that if there were "classes" of Jedi, Yoda would be a "consular." Among the RPG gamers, it is known that consulars are not typically as strong in weaponry... But this is all my own opinion, to which I am happy to be entitled.

Yes, and other various RPG Sourcebooks give levels and stats. So, is Marka Ragnos canonically stronger than NJO Luke and Yoda because his stats are better? Is Vader stronger than Exar Kun? No. Yoda is a consular for roleplaying purposes, they aren't canon.

Still, I think there is something to be said in your opinion that Mace had beaten Sidious fair and square (I don't necessarily agree, but you do have some evidence that supports your argument), and if that's the case then your argument supports the point that Mace was a better swordsman than Yoda, as Yoda did not (and COULD NOT) defeat Sidious. This is according to the ROTS movie and novel... Even the StarWars.com databank states that Sidious "bested" Yoda (link is here).

How? Let me tell you the time of their lightsaber duel: 40 seconds. Their duel, in terms of swordplay, only went on for 1/6 of the time (as the duel was around 4 minutes rounded). So, how can I say Mace > Yoda as a duelist if they didn't even duke it out with a lightsaber for the majority of the time?

Oh? I can't? Okay, so it does not support anything you have to say. Bolded just for the simple fact I want to make it clear. And who gives a flying shit if Sidious "bested" Yoda? He didn't beat him in a lightsaber duel, ergo you cannot make the assumption because Mace beat Sidious in a lightsaber duel that Mace > Yoda because he "lost". As I've already said countless times throughout this post, simply because they didn't have a full lightsaber duel.

Even taking the premise that Yoda couldn't beat Sidious (which obviously I disagree with, and I'm not going to argue it so don't bother) - it can be construed as "Yoda cannot beat Sidious in a full out fight", and neither can Mace.

First, let me say that aside from this, I agree with everything Advent had to say.

And ROTJ makes him into a fool enough.

What Palpatine faced in Return of the Jedi was the same thing that the Jedi were facing in the PT. In the PT, Palpatine was causing the Jedi to lose their ability to use the Force (as Mace Windu confesses), and, in Return of the Jedi - Luke and the conflict in Vader were making Palpatine lose his ability to sense the Force as well.

Notice that, in RotJ, Palpatine is is still more powerful than either Luke or Vader. But he is unable to sense Luke on Endor, whereas Vader is.

And that is the reason that he was unable to sense Vader's conflict, which led to his death. Not incompetence.

Likewise, Advent, Palpatine manipulated everyone in RotJ. Don't you recall? The entire movie was a trap that the Rebels fell for. He outwitted them, and the only reason he lost was due to his arrogance and the above problem, but not incompetence.

To conclude, Palpatine was capable of orchestrating the whole office shebang. I've argued that there is hints that he did. He is above Mace and Yoda in intellect, and manipulated them both for decades. Anakin, likewise, is intellectually inferior to Palpatine and was manipulated rather easily.

Not saying that he did, but he definately could have.

'What Palpatine faced in Return of the Jedi was the same thing that the Jedi were facing in the PT. In the PT, Palpatine was causing the Jedi to lose their ability to use the Force (as Mace Windu confesses), and, in Return of the Jedi - Luke and the conflict in Vader were making Palpatine lose his ability to sense the Force as well.

Notice that, in RotJ, Palpatine is is still more powerful than either Luke or Vader. But he is unable to sense Luke on Endor, whereas Vader is.

And that is the reason that he was unable to sense Vader's conflict, which led to his death. Not incompetence.'

Not saying you're wrong, but do you have a source?

escape and advent have said all the correct things (in my mind anyway).

Originally posted by Jen'ari
'What Palpatine faced in Return of the Jedi was the same thing that the Jedi were facing in the PT. In the PT, Palpatine was causing the Jedi to lose their ability to use the Force (as Mace Windu confesses), and, in Return of the Jedi - Luke and the conflict in Vader were making Palpatine lose his ability to sense the Force as well.

Notice that, in RotJ, Palpatine is is still more powerful than either Luke or Vader. But he is unable to sense Luke on Endor, whereas Vader is.

And that is the reason that he was unable to sense Vader's conflict, which led to his death. Not incompetence.'

Not saying you're wrong, but do you have a source?

I believe it was an interview. Or it could've been one of the commentaries. I'll be searching.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
*YAWN* Prove the Plagueis technique existed. Oh, and Sidious said Plagueis could've saved others but not himself. Even the spirits of the Dark Lords couldn't save his clone body, try again!

Ok, the marvel comics and movies came out long ago, are they invalid? Sorry, but nope. Thing have been written recently in the last few years that even validate DE and what it wrote. Age =/= credibility, sorry, kid!

Palpatine wasn't a spirit for sixteen years, he was back in a body almost right after Endor thanks to Jeng Droga and back on Byss very shortly thereafter. Learn about what you try to say, capische?

Oooh, sorry, but DE is a fictional sourcebook that gives facts backed up by other material.

Hey, moron? Sidious used force drain on the inhabitants of Byss. In fact, Force Drain was invented as a technique in the Dark Empire sourcebook. Geez, the level of your ignorance...

Oh, and Palpatine couldn't be lying about the power to cheat death? Or he couldn't hahve discovered it later on? Since it was spelled out that since his clone had yielded to necrosis and couldn't be saved, welll...
Oh, prove the technique exists? Thanks. The Sourcebook gives facts that are backed up, and unfortunately for you, they're canon and you can't debate them unless you can form a coherent argument.

So, you throw out the insults and barely legible mangling of the English language only to get beat down again, sad...

Oh, btw? Dark Empire Sourcebook, Dark Side sourcebook.
Thanks for playing.

lol stop ********* yourself and start looking for real sources, they are writing a book about DARTH PLAGUES man its coming out in 2008, there goes your shitty arguments.

marvel comics? comics are comics, sources and sources there goes your stupid arguments again.

DE sourcebook backed up by whom? tell me.

and no palpatines character DIED at EMPIRES END that was like how many years

"Palpatine wasn't a spirit for sixteen years, he was back in a body almost right after Endor thanks to Jeng Droga and back on Byss very shortly thereafter. Learn about what you try to say, capische?"

IDIOT i said 6 years! and theres no proof what so ever saying he posses another human being for the SIX year time gap, if he had done so he would have gone after luke

"]*YAWN* Prove the Plagueis technique existed. Oh, and Sidious said Plagueis could've saved others but not himself. Even the spirits of the Dark Lords couldn't save his clone body, try again!"

hey kiddo remember the saying "some techniques cannot be taught"?
that means only plagues had mastered that ability and no ancient sith had shown that ability! if not it would have been mentioned the ancient sith used it! proof? when the novel of dath plagueis comes out in 2008!

OWNED again fanboy

you are a super hard core FANboy who is far worse than those marvel fanboys when it comes to DE sidious, if he had really been super "perfect" he would have killed luke instead of toying with him, there goes another of your shitty arguements

again fool, palpatine admitted in ROTS to anakin that "the power to cheat death has ONLY been mastered by one" the part where he turned anakin to vader.
again that breaks your arguements

you lost accept it want to go on? sure! you are only saying the same thing over and over and over again why? because your a hardcore fanboy of DE sidious, if it was mace windu, lotf luke skywalker you wouldnt care! that again proves your a fanboy of sidious in DE! you dont even care about Tpm or CW sidious! just de!

do you know why you dont know anything about plagues and think hes a lie and not even know a books coming out about him? because your only focusing on your character mr de sidious you dont even know whats happening i only see you debate when it is about sidious and only sidious.

and 1 thing, even if he did get into some1s body in the 6 year gap, how the hell did he practise? you simply have none! no evidense! even if he did his skills would still be sloppish because he simply didnt do anything with the saber after ep3 to his death on endor

Good lord, Advent... You're arguing just for the sake of arguing. Just like in our last argument, you simply can't bring yourself to admit that you can't DISPROVE what I've said. I've looked at many of your posts, and I've noticed that there's one common theme to all of them: you add nothing to the topic; only attempt (and in many cases succeed) to tear apart whatever opinion someone has. It's obvious that you have a complex, low self-esteem/image, or something... perhaps you just need some good d**k in your life. I don't know...

In response to my reply to your assertion that Obi'wan's knowledge is limited when it comes to Jedi history (great swordsmen), you replied:

Point being? When did I ever say otherwise? Oh? I didn't? Alright, now that's cleared up

Did you not say that Obi'wan didn't know shit, or something to that effect? Let me see:

And Kenobi's dialogue of "our Order has ever produced" counts for jack shit when you consider Kenobi doesn't even know a quarter of all the swordsmen the Jedi Order has produced. Seeing as it stems back thousands of years.

Oh, yeah... you DID. Basically, you're saying YOU know, but the characters DON'T.

You further say:

"Of the greatest", keyword: of. Meaning among, not that they are.

Being that my undergraduate degree has a minor in English, allow me to be your teacher for just a moment. In the English language we have the concept of "superlatives"; for example, "great," "greater," and "greatest." "Greater" means that one is better than most, while "greatest" means that one is better than all. PLEASE tell me that you DO understand that when you are "one of the greatest," that you are definitely better than the vast majority of everyone else... ever. You point out that the keyword is "of" and give the word "among" for further clarification (lol as if I needed it...). "Among" means, according to the dictionary, "in the number, class, or group of; of or out of." So, if we rephrase Obi'wan's statement, then, we can say: "Mace and company were in the class of the greatest swordsmen ever to come out of our order." Of course, he's not the authority... YOU are, because YOU'VE been a part of the order, and YOU know EVERY duelist ever to come out of the Jedi Order... Then again, Yoda replies to Obi'wan, "true." True that those guys were some of the best, and true that he and Obi'wan didn't stand a chance against a Sith Lord who presumably took on all three or four simultaneously. As Yoda is always quick to correct others, I would think he'd have corrected Obi'wan at that particular moment. Of course, you don't agree...

I, on the other hand, do agree with you (about Sidious) when you say:

How? Because he was beaten? Big deal. He's not perfect. And ROTJ makes him into a fool enough.

(This is where I'm further agreeing with you...) Of course, after losing the first Death Star, I would think he'd learned his lesson... Obviously not! Curious that Sidious doesn't seem to share Vader's belief that the power of the Death Star can't compare to the power of the Force. Still, the point isn't whether or not he's a fool; it's whether or not he was acting before or after Anakin showed up to the fight.

Along the lines of RPGs, etc.:

Yes, and other various RPG Sourcebooks give levels and stats. So, is Marka Ragnos canonically stronger than NJO Luke and Yoda because his stats are better? Is Vader stronger than Exar Kun? No. Yoda is a consular for roleplaying purposes, they aren't canon.

You need to clean the nut out of your eyes and read exactly what I wrote: "I'm NOT SAYING IT IS OR ISN'T CANON." I gave the sourcebook as an example because YOU said:

Consular? Lol. Since when is there such a thing like "class" outside of KOTOR games?

In case you didn't get me the first time, the book I referred to is "OUTSIDE OF KOTOR GAMES." I have no problem acknowledging that I was reaching on the whole "consular" bit... Are you woman enough to admit the possibility of being wrong? Anyway...

In regard to the statement I made about Mace > Yoda, you replied:

How? Let me tell you the time of their lightsaber duel: 40 seconds. Their duel, in terms of swordplay, only went on for 1/6 of the time (as the duel was around 4 minutes rounded). So, how can I say Mace > Yoda as a duelist if they didn't even duke it out with a lightsaber for the majority of the time?

I'll be damned... Just when I thought you were quite smart and eloquent, you have to go and prove that you're a stupid ***** who thinks that it's all about you. You actually TIMED duels and want to use THAT as evidence to support your argument?! Get the F*** out of my face with that BULL****.

In any case, you obviously only looked for a reply that was directed to YOU, because you missed my post where I said to Kamikz:

Kamikz, I was checking out the Starwars.com website, reading the Expanded Universe info on Mace Windu, and it does say that the only ones ever to best Windu were Yoda and Dooku.

I enjoy a good debate, but damn... BRING SOMETHING NEW TO THE TABLE. You haven't said sh*t, except in attempt to tear down someone else's point or point of view, and quite frankly, I'm not your little "forum b*tchboy." If you're going to even respond to something I say (or anyone for that matter), give an opinion yourself instead of trying to rip the next person apart.

Like I said, you're arguing only for the sake of arguing. I give less than a sh*t who rides your bra-strap, agreeing with you. If you're going to even attempt a dialogue with me, bring something to the table other than trying to tear every single point apart. And YOU said you "don't like to argue?!" Please! Dumb b*tch, you've been doing it all along! Go back into "retirement," because if you're going to try to get into it with me, you better bring your A-game (not to mention a dictionary and thesaurus to help you with your quite limited understanding of the subtleties and nuances of the English language). I'm finished with this thread, so I can guarantee that I won't see any reply you have to this post. In essence, I'm turning my back to you because you've given me every reason to believe that you're so full of yourself that you'll go out of your way to show just how undeniably dumb you can be... Ignoramus...

If you have any reply, send it directly to me, and spare the other forum members your stupidity. Otherwise, keep your c*cksucker shut.

Originally posted by ESB Vader
lol stop ********* yourself and start looking for real sources, they are writing a book about DARTH PLAGUES man its coming out in 2008, there goes your shitty arguments.

marvel comics? comics are comics, sources and sources there goes your stupid arguments again.

DE sourcebook backed up by whom? tell me.

and no palpatines character DIED at EMPIRES END that was like how many years

"Palpatine wasn't a spirit for sixteen years, he was back in a body almost right after Endor thanks to Jeng Droga and back on Byss very shortly thereafter. Learn about what you try to say, capische?"

IDIOT i said 6 years! and theres no proof what so ever saying he posses another human being for the SIX year time gap, if he had done so he would have gone after luke

"]*YAWN* Prove the Plagueis technique existed. Oh, and Sidious said Plagueis could've saved others but not himself. Even the spirits of the Dark Lords couldn't save his clone body, try again!"

hey kiddo remember the saying "some techniques cannot be taught"?
that means only plagues had mastered that ability and no ancient sith had shown that ability! if not it would have been mentioned the ancient sith used it! proof? when the novel of dath plagueis comes out in 2008!

OWNED again fanboy

you are a super hard core FANboy who is far worse than those marvel fanboys when it comes to DE sidious, if he had really been super "perfect" he would have killed luke instead of toying with him, there goes another of your shitty arguements

again fool, palpatine admitted in ROTS to anakin that "the power to cheat death has ONLY been mastered by one" the part where he turned anakin to vader.
again that breaks your arguements

you lost accept it want to go on? sure! you are only saying the same thing over and over and over again why? because your a hardcore fanboy of DE sidious, if it was mace windu, lotf luke skywalker you wouldnt care! that again proves your a fanboy of sidious in DE! you dont even care about Tpm or CW sidious! just de!

do you know why you dont know anything about plagues and think hes a lie and not even know a books coming out about him? because your only focusing on your character mr de sidious you dont even know whats happening i only see you debate when it is about sidious and only sidious.

and 1 thing, even if he did get into some1s body in the 6 year gap, how the hell did he practise? you simply have none! no evidense! even if he did his skills would still be sloppish because he simply didnt do anything with the saber after ep3 to his death on endor

Prove Plagueis had the power to save people from dying.

DE sourcebook backed up by hyperspace. And Insider. And Dark Side Sourcebook. And DE. Sorry.

Palpatine's final clone was pronounced unsalvagable by the lords of Korriban. Try again

Sorry. Palpatine possessed Jeng Droga immediately following Endor. Recorded in 'The Emperor's Pawns'. Sorry.

Prove Plagueis had the ability.

Prove he didn't practice. How would Palpatine practice? I dunno, I suppose immediately following Endor when he got a new, younger clone body it was as simple as getting a lightsaber...Palpatine trained and practiced in TPM, why wouldn't he later on?

No proof? Ok, then. Stop wasting my time and shut up, moron.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
[B Prove Plagueis had the power to save people from dying.

DE sourcebook backed up by hyperspace. And Insider. And Dark Side Sourcebook. And DE. Sorry.
[/B]

yes the DE source book is canon but they wrote stuff which came out before ROTS, now they cant prove sidious had every ability.

[i]Originally posted by Lightsnake [/i[B
Palpatine's final clone was pronounced unsalvagable by the lords of Korriban. Try again[/B]

that was because they have never heard of this technique, its like them never knowing of emerald lightning. this technique had only been mastered by one, said so by sidious, you got to give his sentence some credit

[i]Originally posted by Lightsnake [/i[B

Sorry. Palpatine possessed Jeng Droga immediately following Endor. Recorded in 'The Emperor's Pawns'. Sorry.
[/B]

still he wouldnt have been practising and i have found no sources to prove that he did posses jeng droga. i thought that was before empires end or during, idk
Prove Plagueis didnt have the ability.

[i]Originally posted by Lightsnake [/i[B
Prove he didn't practice. How would Palpatine practice? I dunno, I suppose immediately following Endor when he got a new, younger clone body it was as simple as getting a lightsaber...Palpatine trained and practiced in TPM, why wouldn't he later on?
[/B]

proof he practised? yes for this arguement theres some credit, but DE is 6 years after ROTJ he only got into his new young clone body after rotj which is during DE . and what does getting into that guys other body prove? he practised? no i dont think so

after TPM when sidious became the chancellor he didnt have time, before tpm he was only a senator and didnt it show him with a saber in darth maul the comic? correct me if im wrong

Originally posted by ESB Vader
ok first of all he does exist, why would they write a book about him
if he doesnt exist. in the ROTS novel sidious said something like this "my master taught everything to me about the darkside, before i killed darth plagues in his sleep" and the other one is "the power to cheat death has only been mastered by one"

yes the DE source book is canon but they wrote stuff which came out before ROTS, now they cant prove sidious had every ability.

that was because they have never heard of this technique, its like them never knowing of emerald lightning. this technique had only been mastered by one, said so by sidious, you got to give his sentence some credit

still he wouldnt have been practising and i have found no sources to prove that he did posses jeng droga. i thought that was before empires end or during, idk
Prove Plagueis didnt have the ability.

proof he practised? yes for this arguement theres some credit, but DE is 6 years after ROTJ he only got into his new young clone body after rotj which is during DE . and what does getting into that guys other body prove? he practised? no i dont think so

after TPM when sidious became the chancellor he didnt have time, before tpm he was only a senator and didnt it show him with a saber in darth maul the comic? correct me if im wrong

Prove the technique exists. Sidious is a known manipulator. And liar.

Unfortunately they can prove Sidious had every ability: It's canonically written he did. sorry.

Prove Sidious was telling the truth. Thanks.

You're a liar. Even a quick search on Wiki reveal that he possessed Jeng Droga directly after Endor as revealed in The NEC, The Emperor's Pawns and Gamer. Prove he didn't practise? Because the DS sourcebook said he kept his skills up to date. Which would include saber skills. Sorry. Here's proof: Logic. sidious is smart. He doesn't let his skills get rusty. That much is known factually. Therefore....well, it just curbstomps your argument.

Please, Palpatine was often secluded as a chancellor and the ROTs novelization alludes to his practising with a saber.

Time to prove up: Prove Plagueis knew the ability and that by DE, Sidious didn't. If you can't, time to forfeit

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Prove the technique exists. Sidious is a known manipulator. And liar.

Unfortunately they can prove Sidious had every ability: It's canonically written he did. sorry.

Prove Sidious was telling the truth. Thanks.

You're a liar. Even a quick search on Wiki reveal that he possessed Jeng Droga directly after Endor as revealed in The NEC, The Emperor's Pawns and Gamer. Prove he didn't practise? Because the DS sourcebook said he kept his skills up to date. Which would include saber skills. Sorry. Here's proof: Logic. sidious is smart. He doesn't let his skills get rusty. That much is known factually. Therefore....well, it just curbstomps your argument.

Please, Palpatine was often secluded as a chancellor and the ROTs novelization alludes to his practising with a saber.

Time to prove up: Prove Plagueis knew the ability and that by DE, Sidious didn't. If you can't, time to forfeit

o? because they are going to write a book about plagueis? if he does not exist then why would they write a book about him?

and did sidious even know that anakin was created by the force in his virgin mother?

can you prove palpatine was lieing?

can they prove sidious had green lightning? can they prove sidious used exars amulet?

and even if he got into the guys body, did he practise? can you prove that?

who said bout them writing plagues novel? do a search on wookie or wiki

Originally posted by ESB Vader
o? because they are going to write a book about plagueis? if he does not exist then why would they write a book about him?

and did sidious even know that anakin was created by the force in his virgin mother?

can you prove palpatine was lieing?

can they prove sidious had green lightning? can they prove sidious used exars amulet?

and even if he got into the guys body, did he practise? can you prove that?

who said bout them writing plagues novel? do a search on wookie or wiki

Prove THE ****ING TECHNIQUE exists, NOT PLAGUEIS.

Palpatine knew about Anakin, apparently.

Palpatine is a known liar. And you're throwing around how Plagueis knew the technique. Prove up.

Can I prove he practised? Gee, he kept a saber on him at times, he went back to Byss immediately and went into one of his clones and the Dark Side sourcebook says he kept up with his skills. Proof enough? To the logical, maybe...

Originally posted by Lightsnake

Can I prove he practised? Gee, he kept a saber on him at times, he went back to Byss immediately and went into one of his clones and the Dark Side sourcebook says he kept up with his skills. Proof enough? To the logical, maybe...

yea but that was 6 years after his death when he got into his clone bodies, hmm still yes he could have practised before he sucked luke to byss, but it still cannot prove he practised in the 6 year gap before the beginning of DE

It has been suggested in Vader: The Ultimate Guide that Plagueis, in his experimentation with the Force, created Anakin Skywalker in his mother's womb. quote from wiki

In Revenge of the Sith Chancellor Palpatine, or newly revealed Darth Sidious, says: "To cheat death is a power only one has achieved. But if we work together, I know we can discover the secret." Pretty much saying that he does not know how to do the things Darth Plagueis could.
another quote from wiki

there u go

proof enough? to the logical yes

According to Star Wars: The New Essential Chronology, Darth Plagueis indeed knew how to create life, and sought to create a replacement for his apprentice -another quote, theres all the evidence u need

Palpatine's first major appearance in the Expanded Universe came in 1991 and 1992 with the Dark Empire series of comic books written by Tom Veitch and illustrated by Cam Kennedy. In the series, set six years after Return of the Jedi, Palpatine is resurrected as the Emperor Reborn or Palpatine the Undying. His spirit returns from the netherworld of the Force with the aid of Sith Lord ghosts on Korriban and possesses the body of Jeng Droga, one of Palpatine's elite spies and assassins known as the Emperor's Hands. Droga flees to a secret Imperial base on the planet Byss, where the Emperor's advisor Sate Pestage exorcises

QUOTE from wiki

this also proves yes he did posses that guy but that was SIX years after his death

Wow, Nupe! You're like, totally right.

...Oh.

Wait...

That's Lightsnake. I was wondering why it seemed as if you made sense. Anyways, to sum up my rebuttal to your "argument" (or "lack of", considering it's 3/4 insulting for no apparent reason): No.

But really, the only thing that caught my eye out of that whole bullshit of an argument was this (I hate when people try to lecture me about language):

Being that my undergraduate degree has a minor in English, allow me to be your teacher for just a moment.

Oh god, here we go. Yes, yes - you're a Fifteenth Century English Professor, and you've studied the English language for decades. I know the story. I hate this one more than anything, because NEWS FLASH! No one gives a shit what your credentials are, you're still wrong.

You and good ol' Ushgarak, the "English greats". Well, for one thing, you can take your degree, anything you want to boast about, anything you want to plainly lie about, and shove it straight up your ass.

In the English language we have the concept of "superlatives"; for example, "great," "greater," and "greatest." "Greater" means that one is better than most, while "greatest" means that one is better than all. PLEASE tell me that you DO understand that when you are "one of the greatest," that you are definitely better than the vast majority of everyone else... ever.

Thanks for the unnecessary English lesson, Tom Perrotta.

You could take them yourselves considering you obviously don't understand the basic sentence that is: "Where's your concrete proof Obi-Wan had authority to make the call?". It's an interrogative sentence, by the way. And really, since when do you need anything above a sixth grade education to understand superlatives, and anything comparative?

To get to the point: Yes, they are among the greatest of the Jedi Order of which Obi-Wan knows about. The context of what Obi-Wan is speaking about can only pertain to what Obi-Wan knows. In this case, you have to prove they are "four of the greatest ever" as you say, in the entire Order's history. To do such, as I've been trying to relay to you, you'd have to prove Obi-Wan knows all Jedi in the twenty five thousand year history of the Order itself.

You must understand the onus is on you to prove that. This is typical, you must provide prima facie evidence to support your claims. I don't need to refute this point, you need to prove it. The burden of proof is on you. So, prove up. English lessons won't save you from the fact you need to provide evidence that Obi-Wan has the authority.

You point out that the keyword is "of" and give the word "among" for further clarification (lol as if I needed it...). "Among" means, according to the dictionary, "in the number, class, or group of; of or out of." So, if we rephrase Obi'wan's statement, then, we can say: "Mace and company were in the class of the greatest swordsmen ever to come out of our order."

Wow, thanks again for unnecessarily elaborating on my statement. Your annoying, little act isn't doing much for you, I'd say drop it. Not a good debating tactic/style.

Here we go, I'm going to make this as simple as possible:

If. You. Want. To. Prove. Your. Case.

You must then

Prove. Obi. Wan. Has. The. Authority. To. Make. The. Call.

If you can't then well, too bad. You cannot rephrase his statement as "best ever" because of the simple fact you haven't proved he knows all the Jedi in the Order's history.

Look at it carefully, Nupester. The whole Yoda agreeing bit was questioned in the very same post you were responding to. Talk about old news! Yoda doubts his own skill so much that he intends to stop Sidious, and believes he can alone ("At an end, your rule is", etc.). As noted, the rest is merely petty, schoolyard insults and ridiculous ramblings of an obvious crazed lunatic. So, in closing: a "No" shall do just fine.

EDIT: And really, didn't your mother ever teach you not to speak like that to women?

(So rude.)