Originally posted by Master-Borg
yeah, his spidersense, and overall advantage in agility and strength don't mean a thing!
It actually dont mean anything since wolverine has the ability to one shot spiderman and is almost equal to spiderman in all the categories that you have named in the above. Without his webbing he would have to come in close to battle and that would be a very bad decision to make with someone who has a healing factor that could take any attack that you make and fighting against someone who is by far superior to you in combat, someone who is just as fast and someone that WILL land a lick that could basically kill him. Spiderman advantage is fighting from a distants just like cyclops, along with other heros and villians that have fought wolverine advantage is.
Now with cap, spiderman has a better chance but would still lose. The thing about cap is that he has bested spiderman in almost all of there encounters. He has a shield that could use to counter spiderman attacks and land his own nerve stricking or even just land mere punches that would eventually end spiderman. The difference about captain america is that he is the most tactical on the battle field and could easily find a way to maneuver around spiderman spider sense. When iron spidey fought capt, his only chances against him was his webbing and his talon, he knew he didnt stand a chance against capts perfect fighting ability and tacticle brain, so he relied on attacks that gave him space.
Like I said before, spiderman only hope is his webbing, without that he would literally get crushed by anyone on the field.
Originally posted by jinzin
I'm not sure if it's not that I don't understand your reasoning as much as I don't agree with it at all... It necessitates using a double standard which isn't a genuine way to argue points.It gives one the inclination that if his senses are enough to track bullets his reflexive abilities may be fast enough to react to them... Is that absolute proof? No.. BUT.. when you have him drawn to sidestep bullets after their fired, when you have characters who by the definition of their powers can tell without a shadow of a doubt that the man's dodging bullets, and when you have a third person narratives saying he can do it as well.... well it leads one to believe that the character's capable of doing such a thing in spite of what you believe he SHOULD be able to do REALISTICALLY.
Now... it really doesn't matter what I think, Wolverine HAS dodged lasers before.... multiple times.. most street levels have... does it make sense? Well about as much sense as Spiderman's bone density being strong enough to clear 30-40 foot jumps and punch through steel without breaking even though it was only his musculature that got enhanced. 😬
And so has Superman, but in most of those instances, SS has either been written horribly out of character, against a history that contradicts this, or he's been holding back, like Supes.. When they go all out there is a much different pace at an undeniable consistency... SS can deal with Supes' speed because at his best, both of them actually they have comparable feats... Just like here.. At their best, Cap, Spidey, Wolverine... they ALL have comparable feats.
Okay, Spiderman getting spider powers from a radio active bite didn't happen, it's a contradiction to the truth, instead parker got radiation poisoning and lost his arm. Wolverine died back in 1870 something cause he didn't have a healing factor, and Cap's just an old var vet... now this fight sucks.... 😐
NONE of those pictures show that Spiderman has superior speed.. 😐
Again, comparable feats between all of them dictate this...
And again, dodging a bullet after it's fired.... vs. blocking a bullet after it's fired.... there's no superiority there....
And again, why should I go get scans all set and prepped for you when you already said that you're going to ignore them if I do?.... I mean damn, Wolverine's caught a bullet.... 😐
And you have a classic case of "I don't like it, it didn't happen" in spite of subjecting yourself to a fictionalized media......
If firelord's holing back 95% of his power for the sake of keeping things interesting while Spiderman gets nearly unlimited plot devices... sure he's got a shot.
I understand now. It took me a while but now I get it. You're playing games with me.
If not then take this:
First, Wolverine caught a bullet in a non-canon source. Thus he never did catch a bullet. Second, moving out of the way requires more than 2x the speed than merely blocking. Third, I never seen Wolverine or CA sidestep or dodge a bullet after it was fired. Remember the "after" is everything. Fourth, normal humans can't tell the difference if someone with great speed got out of the way of a bullet the instant before it was fired vs. the instant it left the barrel. We would say that the person "dodged the bullet" but in actuality they didn't (they just got out of the way right before the fire). Fifth, I would like to see a laser coming right at Logan and then, after Logan sees it, reacts to it and then moves out of the way. I would seriously LMFAO. For this would conclude that Logan is indeed faster than light.
Finally, I really don't like that SS can react to Superman when he has been shown so many times to not be able to in battle (outside of battle yes though). Yet I accept it. It is also many many others things that I don't like but accept that they did happen. So it isn't "I don't like it, it didn't happened" with me.
P.S. Spiderman blitzing Firelord had nothing to do with Firelord holding back or plot devices. For during that blitz, Firelord was shown not to be able to keep up with Spiderman in spite of desperately trying. He was also shown to not have the necessary durability to withstand Spiderman's attacks.
But it did happen right?
Originally posted by Mindset
Spiderman has him webbing for this fight, why are you talking about him w/o it?Also Logan is not close to Spiderman in agility, and no where close to him in strength.
I agree. Even assuming Spiderman has equal strength, speed, and agility as those two then he still has the awesome Spider-sense to give him a great edge. And many here are thinking that Spiderman has to ko Logan with his fists. The webbing can easily suffocate him if it covers his face. All is required is that Spidey web Logans arms first. If CA gets his faced web then he is through.
Originally posted by h1a8
I understand now. It took me a while but now I get it. You're playing games with me.
Originally posted by h1a8
If not then take this:
First, Wolverine caught a bullet in a non-canon source. Thus he never did catch a bullet.
IN CANON he has stopped the path of a bullet after it's been fired.
Originally posted by h1a8Prove it. If someone can block/evade an attack it means their fast twich muscles and reflexes are fast enough compensate for what's coming at them, it makes no difference if their dodging or blocking.... You seem to think that these characters can't dodge bullets because they're not fast enough but every piece of evidence contradicts you.
Second, moving out of the way requires more than 2x the speed than merely blocking.
Originally posted by h1a8
Third, I never seen Wolverine or CA sidestep or dodge a bullet [B]after it was fired. Remember the "after" is everything.[/B]
It doesn't change the fact that they've done it before...
Originally posted by h1a8What part of Spiderman Daredevil or their powersets stand out to you as "normal human"... 🤨
Fourth, normal humans can't tell the difference if someone with great speed got out of the way of a bullet the instant before it was fired vs. the instant it left the barrel. We would say that the person "dodged the bullet" but in actuality they didn't (they just got out of the way right before the fire).
Originally posted by h1a8
Fifth, I would like to see a laser coming right at Logan and then, after Logan sees it, reacts to it and then moves out of the way. I would seriously LMFAO. For this would conclude that Logan is indeed faster than light.
pfff. again it's only okay for Spiderman to do the unacceptable.
🙄
Originally posted by h1a8
Finally, I really don't like that SS can react to Superman when he has been shown so many times to not be able to in battle (outside of battle yes though). Yet I accept it. It is also many many others things that I don't like but accept that they did happen. So it isn't "I don't like it, it didn't happened" with me.
Superman has the same low showings... 😕
But it is here... since you've made that argument a handful of times already.
P.S. Spiderman blitzing Firelord had nothing to do with Firelord holding back or plot devices. For during that blitz, Firelord was shown not to be able to keep up with Spiderman in spite of desperately trying. He was also shown to not have the necessary durability to withstand Spiderman's attacks.
But it did happen right? [/B][/QUOTE]
Originally posted by jinzinWe would call this getting hit by the bullet.IN CANON he has stopped the path of a bullet after it's been fired.
You have to move at least twice the distance (body along with arms) to move out of the way than to stand there and move your arm a few inches to block.
Prove it. If someone can block/evade an attack it means their fast twich muscles and reflexes are fast enough compensate for what's coming at them, it makes no difference if their dodging or blocking.... You seem to think that these characters can't dodge bullets because they're not fast enough but every piece of evidence contradicts you.
Also, body movement is a hell of a lot slower than hand movement. An expert martial artist can punch with speeds rivaling 70mph. But their body movement is way less than running speed (20mph). Thus moving one's body out of the way is more impressive than sitting there and blocking.
It doesn't change the fact that they've done it before...
I was referring to the normal human that though CA can dodge bullets.
What part of Spiderman Daredevil or their powersets stand out to you as "normal human"... 🤨
I don't accept what Spider-man done to Firelord. You do though, as if you didn't you would create a double standard.
pfff. again it's only okay for Spiderman to do the unacceptable.
He has low showings but not the same. Superman with the greatest PIS ever could never get koed by Spider-man. Also, these low showings are unacceptable. And thus there is no double standard for me.
Superman has the same low showings... 😕
Originally posted by h1a8I agree with you that Wolverine never caught a bullet. Non-canon sources are crap in just about everyone's opinions. But as to the second point about Cap never dodging bullets, here you go, Cap not only dodges the bullet, he throws his shield as well:
I understand now. It took me a while but now I get it. You're playing games with me.If not then take this:
it was fired. Remember the "after" is everything...[/B]
First, Wolverine caught a bullet in a non-canon source. Thus he never did catch a bullet. Second, moving out of the way requires more than 2x the speed than merely blocking. Third, I never seen Wolverine or CA sidestep or dodge a bullet [B]after
Originally posted by h1a8
We would call this getting hit by the bullet.
Not when he's doing it with th blade of his claws.
Originally posted by h1a8
You have to move at least twice the distance (body along with arms) to move out of the way than to stand there and move your arm a few inches to block.
Originally posted by h1a8
Also, body movement is a hell of a lot slower than hand movement. An expert martial artist can punch with speeds rivaling 70mph. But their body movement is way less than running speed (20mph). Thus moving one's body out of the way is more impressive than sitting there and blocking.
Originally posted by h1a8
And it doesn't change the fact that they've never done it before either. 🙄
Originally posted by h1a8
I was referring to the normal human that though CA can dodge bullets.
Originally posted by h1a8Cause Spiderman didn't do the majority of it, plot devices and Firelord's CIS did...
I don't accept what Spider-man done to Firelord. You do though, as if you didn't you would create a double standard.
Originally posted by h1a8Sure he does, he's been beaten up by batman and stuffed mid speed blitz by him as well... he's been tagged by warworlders, and hit byatomic skull..... none of these people are superfast....
He has low showings but not the same. Superman with the greatest PIS ever could never get koed by Spider-man. Also, these low showings are unacceptable. And thus there is no double standard for me.
Unacceptable showings are one thing...
But Spiderman being hit by peak humans, or being rivaled by their speed is not unacceptable it's the way he's been written since day one.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I agree with you that Wolverine never caught a bullet. Non-canon sources are crap in just about everyone's opinions. But as to the second point about Cap never dodging bullets, here you go, Cap not only dodges the bullet, he throws his shield as well:
I don't quite see how he dodged the bullet there. What comic is that anyway?
Originally posted by jinzinShow me then.
Not when he's doing it with th blade of his claws.
Common sense will tell you that it takes less speed blocking a punch than actually moving out of the way of it.
No you don't... well I depend it's what kind of block is being compared... But you still have nothing that proves you need to be 2x as fast. So... speculation.
Slow feet vs. fast feet having nothing to do with anything here. My argument is moving out of the way requires more speed than just sitting there and blocking.
Prove it... if someone's body is having a hard time moving out of the way most of the time that's attributed to slow feet... A problem neither Logan or Cap suffer from.
Them is plural. The only time that
Yes.... they... have... you even see the bullets passing by them in "bullet time".... 😐
Superman beaten up by batman? I got to see this. Please give me a scan or issue #.Sure he does, he's been beaten up by batman and stuffed mid speed blitz by him as well... he's been tagged by warworlders, and hit byatomic skull..... none of these people are superfast....
Doesn't matter. As Spiderman can't be both faster
Unacceptable showings are one thing...
But Spiderman being hit by peak humans, or being rivaled by their speed is not unacceptable it's the way he's been written since day one.
Originally posted by h1a8[sarcasm]Oh I see... did you skip the part where Winter Soldier shot his pistol and then Cap dodged the bullet and threw his shield? It happens in panels... hmm... let me see... I forget too. I'll have to look at it again-
I don't quite see how he dodged the bullet there. What comic is that anyway?
- oh! Ok, I got it! After careful reading (it took quite a long time...), it happens in panels... now let's see... panels one and two! Might be hard to pick them out since there are indeed a total of eight (count em, eight!) panels on the page. Y'know, like... when they want to read the page real quick and stuff.[/sarcasm]
The comic is Captain America #14, the conclusion of the 'Winter Soldier' storyline. Please don't insult my intelligence by further trying to interpret that scene as anything else then what it was and I won't further insult you with blatant sarcasm. Intransigency doesn't suit you.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
[sarcasm]Oh I see... did you skip the part where Winter Soldier shot his pistol and then Cap dodged the bullet and threw his shield? It happens in panels... hmm... let me see... I forget too. I'll have to look at it again-- oh! Ok, I got it! After careful reading (it took quite a long time...), it happens in panels... now let's see... panels one and two! Might be hard to pick them out since there are indeed a total of eight (count em, eight!) panels on the page. Y'know, like... when they want to read the page real quick and stuff.[/sarcasm]
The comic is Captain America #14, the conclusion of the 'Winter Soldier' storyline. Please don't insult my intelligence by further trying to interpret that scene as anything else then what it was and I won't further insult you with blatant sarcasm. Intransigency doesn't suit you.
I love sarcasm. It doesn't offend me one bit. That is why I love Seinfeld so much. But the scan can be interpreted as the gunman firing more than once. The first bullet missed (as shown) and then CA moved out of the way and threw the shield causing the second one to miss as well.
Originally posted by h1a8
I love sarcasm. It doesn't offend me one bit. That is why I love Seinfeld so much. But the scan can be interpreted as the gunman firing more than once. The first bullet missed (as shown) and then CA moved out of the way and threw the shield causing the second one to miss as well.
The first bullet missed? From Winter Soldier shooting it at near point blank range? 🤨
😕
There's only 1 BLAM... 😐
see what I mean, even with the evidence in front of your face you're still being stubburn, but you want to find you more scans of Cap and Wolvie dodging bullets, even when you said it wouldn't matter if I did already. 🙄
Originally posted by jinzin
The first bullet missed? From Winter Soldier shooting it at near point blank range? 🤨
😕There's only 1 BLAM... 😐
see what I mean, even with the evidence in front of your face you're still being stubburn, but you want to find you more scans of Cap and Wolvie dodging bullets, even when you said it wouldn't matter if I did already. 🙄
😆
I love you Jinzin man, you make me laugh.
Maybe I am being stubborn somewhat, maybe I'm not.
Too many here post bogus scans with gross misinterpretations.
Plus from the many years of looking at Spider-man, CA, and Wolverine it seems almost natural that Spidey is faster. And by the way, I love the heck out of some CA (not Wolverine though-I hate him).
Also all the CA and Wolverine scans aren't very clear as the spider-man ones (Its 100% clear that Spidey reacts and dodges after the fire). So for two reasons, it's nearly impossible for me to believe that CA or Wolverine can react to and actually dodge a bullet after it has already entered the air. These reasons are the fact that they are slightly above peak human in movement speed (not fast enough) and the fact that I haven't seen a clear (without a doubt) scan showing them dodge after the fire.
Yes, I've seen a scan where Wolverine sees the bullet slower than what a human does. But I believe Spidey both sees it even much slower and has even greater speed to dodge it.
Look at it this way, lets give CA and Wolverine the benefit of the doubt. Let's say they can barely dodge (lean out of the way slightly) only if the bullet is just leaving the nozzle. But if the bullet is halfway through the air (midflight) then they have no chance (or at least would get grazed). Spider-man on the other hand can wait for the bullet to reach midflight (and maybe almost endflight) and still is fast enough to dodge perfectly.
This is a concession on my part but I'm willing to give it for those who sadly don't feel Spider-man is clearly faster than the two.
Originally posted by h1a8
😆
I love you Jinzin man, you make me laugh.
Maybe I am being stubborn somewhat, maybe I'm not.
Too many here post bogus scans with gross misinterpretations.
Plus from the many years of looking at Spider-man, CA, and Wolverine it seems almost natural that Spidey is faster. And by the way, I love the heck out of some CA (not Wolverine though-I hate him).Also all the CA and Wolverine scans aren't very clear as the spider-man ones (Its 100% clear that Spidey reacts and dodges after the fire). So for two reasons, it's nearly impossible for me to believe that CA or Wolverine can react to and actually dodge a bullet [B]after
it has already entered the air. These reasons are the fact that they are slightly above peak human in movement speed (not fast enough) and the fact that I haven't seen a clear (without a doubt) scan showing them dodge after the fire.Yes, I've seen a scan where Wolverine sees the bullet slower than what a human does. But I believe Spidey both sees it even much slower and has even greater speed to dodge it.
Look at it this way, lets give CA and Wolverine the benefit of the doubt. Let's say they can barely dodge (lean out of the way slightly) only if the bullet is just leaving the nozzle. But if the bullet is halfway through the air (midflight) then they have no chance (or at least would get grazed). Spider-man on the other hand can wait for the bullet to reach midflight (and maybe almost endflight) and still is fast enough to dodge perfectly.
This is a concession on my part but I'm willing to give it for those who sadly don't feel Spider-man is clearly faster than the two. [/B]
I don't think that it's ever been legitimately argued that Spiderman isn't faster than these two, it's just not to a degree that would matter in a fight, or bullet dodging...
I do question what it is to be above peak human though.... when everything these characters do is clearly above the scope of human capability it seems unfair to view limit their interpretations because they're human.
Originally posted by jinzin
I do question what it is to be above peak human though.... when everything these characters do is clearly above the scope of human capability it seems unfair to view limit their interpretations because they're human.