Look at all the Nash haters coming around 😱
MVP so far....
1. Dirk
2. Nash
3. Wade
4. Kobe
Originally posted by Myth
Sounds like this is the main package discussed between Nets and Lakers:Kidd for Kwame, Farmar, McKie, and Mihm.
I personally don't think Kidd is going anywhere, but if the Lakers get him for that package, that would be a steal for the Lakers.
Originally posted by wuTa
Look at all the Nash haters coming around 😱
I never said he wasn't one of the top guys. I just don't think he has been the most deserving in any of these years. Plus as I have often mentioned, I don't like how the he is only a top candidate because of the rule changes the NBA made 3 years ago (rule changes that I was against because they reduce the effectiveness of good defense).
Originally posted by Myth
I never said he wasn't one of the top guys. I just don't think he has been the most deserving in any of these years. Plus as I have often mentioned, I don't like how the he is only a top candidate because of the rule changes the NBA made 3 years ago (rule changes that I was against because they reduce the effectiveness of good defense).
I know you never said he wasn't one of the top guys, but even when Nash played in Dallas before the rule changes he was an All Star, and one of the top point guards in the league, and even after the rule changes, Detroit and the Spurs still won championships through there defense.
Originally posted by Lord Evolution
Lol Wade's team is under .500 and they are only making a run because Shaq is back. What does that say about Wade?
It says that they have been struggling, but that doesn't mean he isn't having an MVP season.
QUOTE=8374619]Originally posted by Lord Evolution
Lol Wade's team is under .500 and they are only making a run because Shaq is back. What does that say about Wade?
[/QUOTE]
What it says is Wade finally doesn't have to do everything for his team to have chance at winning. Considering most of their main players are either injured (Shaq, JWill) having terrible season (Antoine) or should be in a retirement home (Zo, Payton), they're lucky to be close to .500 which is all of Wade's doing. You could put Kobe, Lebron, or Tmac with the Heat and they would still suck and probably would be worse considering none of those players are doing as much Wade is doing right now.
Originally posted by TaZ#12
I don't think Flash is having a MVP season at all.
Yeah, I mean the guy is only distributing the ball almost as good as Chris Paul while putting up Iverson like scoring numbers (minus the bad FG%). No MVP season right there.
What it says is Wade finally doesn't have to do everything for his team to have chance at winning. Considering most of their main players are either injured (Shaq, JWill) having terrible season (Antoine) or should be in a retirement home (Zo, Payton), they're lucky to be close to .500 which is all of Wade's doing. You could put Kobe, Lebron, or Tmac with the Heat and they would still suck and probably would be worse considering none of those players are doing as much Wade is doing right now.
.
No what it says is, without Shaq he can't lead his team to a .500 record. Not that he is MVP.
I'm not a big fan of the MVP having to have a great team record, but damn they weren't even .500
😆 😆 😆
Nope, no MVP for him.
Originally posted by Lord Evolution
[B]No what it says is, without Shaq he can't lead his team to a .500 record. Not that he is MVP.
I'm not a big fan of the MVP having to have a great team record, but damn they weren't even .500
😆 😆 😆Nope, no MVP for him.
Like I said, I've watched enough Heat games to see how much Wade does for his team which is more than any player in the league right now. Tell me another player who does more for their team's success. Pretty much all the Heat's losses are because of Wade's teammates either being injured or sucking.
Question: Do you think Kobe could bring this Heat team to .500 without Shaq and all the other shit the Heat have gone through?
Originally posted by Dr. Strangelove
Question: Do you think Kobe could bring this Heat team to .500 without Shaq and all the other shit the Heat have gone through?
The team Wade has around him minus Shaq is better than what the Lakers had last year. Kobe got them to the playoffs.
And yes it is a sure thing Kobe would have that team well over .500 if he was switched with Wade.
Originally posted by Lord Evolution
The team Wade has around him minus Shaq is better than what the Lakers had last year. Kobe got them to the playoffs.And yes it is a sure thing Kobe would have that team well over .500 if he was switched with Wade.
So who, minus Shaq, is even close to Lamar's level? The only position the Heat might be better at is with Zo. Discounting Lamar, the rest is pretty much a wash. And the Lakers were generally healthy last year while this year's Heat has had a ton of injuries.
And Kobe didn't get them to the playoffs. Phil did. Without Phil the Lakers don't make the playoffs like two years ago as Kobe's teammates would not have taken his ball hogging bullshit with another coach. Phil made the rest of the team work their ass off just so Kobe could get his 30+ shots.
So how would've he done it? because at this point Wade has better numbers than Kobe does and does more things to help his team win.
And I don't want those "Because he would!" homer answers that I get from you too much. Prove to me with facts and well thought out opinions.
Originally posted by Lord Evolution
The team Wade has around him minus Shaq is better than what the Lakers had last year. Kobe got them to the playoffs.And yes it is a sure thing Kobe would have that team well over .500 if he was switched with Wade.
No way. We have Antoine Walker, that automatically makes your role players better than ours.
Originally posted by Dr. Strangelove
So who, minus Shaq, is even close to Lamar's level? The only position the Heat might be better at is with Zo. Discounting Lamar, the rest is pretty much a wash. And the Lakers were generally healthy last year while this year's Heat has had a ton of injuries.
And Kobe didn't get them to the playoffs. Phil did. Without Phil the Lakers don't make the playoffs like two years ago as Kobe's teammates would not have taken his ball hogging bullshit with another coach. Phil made the rest of the team work their ass off just so Kobe could get his 30+ shots.So how would've he done it? because at this point Wade has better numbers than Kobe does and does more things to help his team win.
And I don't want those "Because he would!" homer answers that I get from you too much. Prove to me with facts and well thought out opinions.
Now Dr you know i respect you but i have to disagree with much of this (not surprising coming from a Laker fan i hear you say).
In terms of skills nobody on the Heat (minus Wade and Shaq) can touch Lamar but thats not Lamars whole story. Lamar has the skills to be a perennial all star but his problem has always been consistency, he can get you a triple double without breaking a sweat one night then get 5/6/3 the next. You have to take that into account over an 82 game season. Granted Lamar was awesome to start the season but has struggled since coming back from injury and is now playing worse that he did for the first half of last season. Over a whole season i would say Haslem contributes as much as Lamar only because he is consistent, if Lamar could bring it every night it wouldnt be close.
I would say PG matchups are pretty even between the 2 teams, Payton may be past his prime but Smush is barely NBA level. Kapono is a more reliable shooter than both Walton and Vlade, but Waltons playmaking skills and Vlades size make that pretty much even. Center position is tipping towards the Heat because of the intimidation that Mourning brings, in a few years Bynum might be there but not now.
Saying Kobe didnt get them to the playoffs is rather naive imo, he did take alot of shots but both he and Phil have both explained why but for some reason nobody seems to except it (i can understand why people dont want to believe Kobe, but Phil?). AI pretty much did the same thing for the Sixers when they went to the finals and got MVP for it. Also the Lakers were on course to make the playoffs the year before that to but severe injuries to both Kobe and Lamar down the stretch stopped that.
Wades numbers are great and im not disputing that but one of the main reasons he averages so many assists is because of the Heat offense which is mostly high screen and rolls and 1-4 sets. He also has good finishers like Kapono, Haslem, Morning and obviously Shaq. Put Kapono on the Lakers with the way he is shooting at the moment and i bet Kobe would average a couple more dimes than when he kicks out to Sasha or Evans. Assists are reliant on the passer but also the guy putting the ball in the hoop, im not trying to diminish Wade or any other player that racks up assists but Magic himself wouldnt have averaged as many dimes if he was passing to Kwame, Sasha and Walton instead of Kareem, Scott and Wilkes.
Finally im not saying for sure that Kobe could get the Heat to the playoffs this year, last year or any other year, to me its a dumb question with too many variables. I can say that Kobe does just as much to help his team win as Wade does, he may not get as many assists but he scores more points, he may not grab as many boards but he is a better defender. They are both great players and obviously i rate Kobe higher than Wade but the comparisons have gone a bit too far imo. Wade shouldnt get mentioned for MVP because he's team sucks, i dont agree with the criteria but thats the way it is. If you are on a bad team then it doesnt matter what your numbers are, otherwise KG would be a lock to win every year.
Originally posted by koolruningz
Now Dr you know i respect you but i have to disagree with much of this (not surprising coming from a Laker fan i hear you say).
In terms of skills nobody on the Heat (minus Wade and Shaq) can touch Lamar but thats not Lamars whole story. Lamar has the skills to be a perennial all star but his problem has always been consistency, he can get you a triple double without breaking a sweat one night then get 5/6/3 the next. You have to take that into account over an 82 game season. Granted Lamar was awesome to start the season but has struggled since coming back from injury and is now playing worse that he did for the first half of last season. Over a whole season i would say Haslem contributes as much as Lamar only because he is consistent, if Lamar could bring it every night it wouldnt be close.
I would say PG matchups are pretty even between the 2 teams, Payton may be past his prime but Smush is barely NBA level. Kapono is a more reliable shooter than both Walton and Vlade, but Waltons playmaking skills and Vlades size make that pretty much even. Center position is tipping towards the Heat because of the intimidation that Mourning brings, in a few years Bynum might be there but not now.
I would agree with most of that with the exception of Walton. He's a perfect fit for the triangle and he is doing to what Diaw does for the suns and is a big factor in the Laker's improvement.
Originally posted by koolruningz
Saying Kobe didnt get them to the playoffs is rather naive imo, he did take alot of shots but both he and Phil have both explained why but for some reason nobody seems to except it (i can understand why people dont want to believe Kobe, but Phil?). AI pretty much did the same thing for the Sixers when they went to the finals and got MVP for it. Also the Lakers were on course to make the playoffs the year before that to but severe injuries to both Kobe and Lamar down the stretch stopped that.
This is were I disagree. Now I don't have a problem with Kobe taking shots. He's Kobe Bryant, arguably the best scorer in the league. But he took 500 more shots last season than Gilbert Arenas, a dude who has been called a ball hog many times. There's no excuse for that. I know that one of the reasons Kobe took so many shots was because his teammates weren't hitting open ones. But don't you think that's partly his fault? I'll try to explain my point by doing my Hubie Brown impression: "Now you're Smush Parker, your teammate, Kobe Bryant, just took an off balanced three pointer with two defenders on him while you were wide open. Now if you're Smush Parker, are you supposed to be confident shooting the ball after that?"
Well I've always thought Iverson was overrated as hell but during his MVP season, he was pretty much the only option offensively. AI had to score and put up shots whereas as this year shows, Kobe didn't need to do that last year.
Originally posted by koolruningz
Wades numbers are great and im not disputing that but one of the main reasons he averages so many assists is because of the Heat offense which is mostly high screen and rolls and 1-4 sets. He also has good finishers like Kapono, Haslem, Morning and obviously Shaq. Put Kapono on the Lakers with the way he is shooting at the moment and i bet Kobe would average a couple more dimes than when he kicks out to Sasha or Evans. Assists are reliant on the passer but also the guy putting the ball in the hoop, im not trying to diminish Wade or any other player that racks up assists but Magic himself wouldnt have averaged as many dimes if he was passing to Kwame, Sasha and Walton instead of Kareem, Scott and Wilkes.
Point taken but I do think you're a little too hard on the Lakers role players, in my opinion. I'm not saying they are amazing, but they are solid, and they give more effort than most.
Originally posted by koolruningz
Finally im not saying for sure that Kobe could get the Heat to the playoffs this year, last year or any other year, to me its a dumb question with too many variables. I can say that Kobe does just as much to help his team win as Wade does, he may not get as many assists but he scores more points, he may not grab as many boards but he is a better defender. They are both great players and obviously i rate Kobe higher than Wade but the comparisons have gone a bit too far imo. Wade shouldnt get mentioned for MVP because he's team sucks, i dont agree with the criteria but thats the way it is. If you are on a bad team then it doesnt matter what your numbers are, otherwise KG would be a lock to win every year.
I understand that but as an example, I just can't see Lebron being a better candidate for MVP than Wade at this point. Lebron team is doing much better that Wade's team but Lebron has pretty much been coasting these first three months, and yes 26-6-6 is coasting for Lebron, he's that talented. The amount of effort and work load Wade is putting up is much more than Lebron right now and that is the reason I see Wade being a MVP candidate even though his team isn't doing well.
Nice to finally have an intelligent argument with someone.
How is there no excuse for that? When no one else on your team is making shots and you are the leagues best player and top scorer, why wouldn't take those shots? But I don't see how this is Kobe's fault his teammates aren't hitting open shots and your reasoning wasn't really a good explanation.
This years Lakers are very much different from last years Lakers. Our roster may have not changed drastically but the skill level and the ability to work in the triangle has. Last years Bynum didn't get much playing time, he only came in the game when we were blowing cats out, we were being blown out ourselves or we had the game in the bag late in the 4th. You can see our players much more in tune with triangle, that is something we didn't have last year. As Kool said, Odom was very inconsistent. Early on this year when he was healthy he was putting up the numbers on a consistent basis. And I am sure once he gets back to 100% health he will get back to doing what he did for us early on.
I will agree with you there, our role players have been doing well. Much better than what we had last year. But they aren't doing it every night.
Lebron is a better candidate for MVP than Wade. He has nothing on that team and they are one of the top teams in the East. Who on that team is putting up numbers? Who is helping Lebron out? And the Cavs have a better record than the Heat and Wade has slightly better numbers than Lebron.
Wade has Kapono knocking down shots left and right. Alonzo blocking shots down low, a kid named Wright on their team is doing well when he is in the game and lets not forget about Jason Williams and Haslem. When compared to the Cavs they are stacked, yet the Heat are at .500 and they are only winning because Shaq is back while the Cavs stand tall in the Eastern conference. I think I will go with Lebron for MVP over Wade.
Originally posted by koolruningz
If you are on a bad team then it doesnt matter what your numbers are, otherwise KG would be a lock to win every year.
I agree. So true.
You know it really amazes me how no one mentions KG in this whole MVP talk. The man putts up MVP numbers across the board on a sorry team consistently. He's been the number 1 fantasy player in the whole league this season and yet no one talks about him.
Give KG his props dammit! 😠