Originally posted by Darth Martin
I disagree. Winning 60+ wins two straight seasons, having homecourt advantage throughout the playoffs, etc. should be enough. It was clear to me that Cleveland could have won Game 6 in Boston. LeBron hit two pull-up 3-pointers and hid after that, deferring away from the offense. At the end, he didn't even touch the ball on 2-3 straight possessions. He gave up with victory still up for grasp.Cleveland swept the Lakers during the regular season. All that "LeBron would've never won a title in Cleveland" is bullshit and totally overblown. Would he? Maybe, maybe not. The point is that he had a more than legitimate shot. He decided to leave. That's fine. But stop with the claims that he never would have won. All was fine when they were laughing, joking, "taking pictures", launching pre-game half-court shots, going to 60+ wins, etc. but they collectively failed in the playoffs when it mattered. I seem to remember them destroying teams up until the ones that defeated them.
Sure they had the best record in the regular season but the reason for that was almost entirely Lebron's doing. Honestly, you put Lerbon on any of the 30 teams then they'd have a great regular season record but once the playoffs start and they're facing a great defensive team like the Celtics, the rest of the team needs to step up and they didn't. I contend that Lebron's supporting cast was not good enough to beat the Celtics. The Celtics defense is so good that they can take away a team's number one option, and in that case other players need to contribute and they didn't.
I look at the Cavs team this year without Lebron and see just how bad they are (Even as I type this post the Cavs are losing 94-120) and it seems to confirm my belief that around 80-90% of the Cavs success was due to Lebron. That's why he justly won the MVP these past 2 seasons.
Originally posted by guy222
yeskey is can he win a ring
Robert Horry - 7 rings
Karl Malone - 0 rings
Do you really think Robert Horry is a better PF than Karl Malone?
Sam Cassell - 3 rings
John Stockton - 0 rings
Is Sam Cassell a better PG overall than John Stockton?
And yes, I believe LeBron will surpass Bird, maybe not in 3PT ability, but in overall skill.
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
I don't believe winning a ring is what measures a player's greatness.Robert Horry - 7 rings
Karl Malone - 0 ringsDo you really think Robert Horry is a better PF than Karl Malone?
Sam Cassell - 3 rings
John Stockton - 0 ringsIs Sam Cassell a better PG overall than John Stockton?
And yes, I believe LeBron will surpass Bird, maybe not in 3PT ability, but in overall skill.
Well in those cases there was a wide gap in talent between them but if it's close people will usually use championships won as a deciding factor.
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
I don't believe winning a ring is what measures a player's greatness.Robert Horry - 7 rings
Karl Malone - 0 ringsDo you really think Robert Horry is a better PF than Karl Malone?
Sam Cassell - 3 rings
John Stockton - 0 ringsIs Sam Cassell a better PG overall than John Stockton?
And yes, I believe LeBron will surpass Bird, maybe not in 3PT ability, but in overall skill.
i believe it does. ultimate achievement for an athlete
for ur two comparsions
horry was a shooting small forward, malone is one of the all time great power forwards
i would compare bob to kc jones...nearly same rings and ppg
i say bob is better than kc jones
cassell and stockton....
for me i'd compare stockton to magic
no comparsion at all.. magic all day everyday
we agree on ur last assessment
😛
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygon
If that was the case, then Bill Russell is better than Michael Jordan.
Well it's different eras as back then there wasn't as many teams in those days or as much talent, although there wasn't that much when Jordan was winning his rings either. The thing with Jordan was that he had the stats and the rings. 6 Titles, 5 MVPs, 10 scoring titles, 30.1 ppg career average, was on the record 72-10 team, while Russell did with the ring (11) and MVPs (5) he only averaged 15 points a game with 46% shooting so he wasn't that great an offensive player. Also more people saw Jordan play then those who did Russell.
With the rings Russell has does have many people elevate him above Wilt who has a much better scoring averages than him at 30 ppg average but only 2 rings.
Originally posted by AsbestosFlaygonHe very well might be. I have Jordan as the GOAT and Russell 2nd all-time but I'd have no problem with someone ranking Russell ahead of Jordan.
If that was the case, then Bill Russell is better than Michael Jordan.
LeBron has the ability to pass Bird, sure, if wins some rings. He'll never be more skilled than Bird. LeBron relies too much on his amazing athleticism.
Using the "Horry rings" argument is childish.
It's not childish, it just goes to show you that people use championships as a argument for GOAT.
Horry is the example of somebody who has the rings but it doesn't necessarily mean that the person is great, which was the person point if I'm not mistaken.
What the discussion should be is comparing different players greatness by championships as the alpha dog on the team. For example, Jordan is a better player than Kobe because he won 6 Championships as the "guy" on the Bulls while Kobe won a few with Shaquille O'Neal.
That's as an example, not my opinion but its good discussion material because basketball teams are like that.
The Kobe-Shaq tandem is childish also. Do we discredit Magic, Kareem, Oscar, etc. rings? If Shaq was the best player, Kobe was generally atleast top 5 surely during most of that stretch, was the closer for his team in the 4th as Shaq was a liability due to his obvious weakness.
Russell WAS "the man" on those Celtics clearly. Statistically, his defensive dominance was so great that no one has come to close to matching it. He was one of the greatest athletes to ever play, probably the smartest to ever play, a wonderful teammate, a great passer for a big man, arguably the greatest rebounder ever, and by far the greatest defensive force the league has ever seen. Your being delusional if you think he isn't in the conversation with Jordan for GOAT.