Originally posted by Regret
Old and New Testament should not contradict. Teachings of behavior should be consistent, method of enforcement may not necessarily be. Judging another is typically deemed acceptable in law if one is in the position of judge or similar, so verse referring to one in designated judgement seat would be allowed to judge based on the law without fear of religious reproof. These positions are discussed in the Old Testament frequently and would not be valid if the position is not currently in place.
I see.
I always thought that the Christians were all about the NT, because OT is Jewish cripture.
Hmm...interesting.
Re: Biblical discussion on judging others
Originally posted by Regret
I do not believe that the New Testament provides support for the act of judging another or condemning another. As my support for this view are the following scripture:
I think i know the exact passage you are talking about. Funnily enough I had only looked it up once and when you read on it says something like this....how can you tell your brother that he has something in your eye if you have something in your eye too? Remove the object in your eye then advise your brother.
Nothing wrong with that, but it basically says if you are going to judge others then sort yourself out first.
Yes this is the passage.
Originally posted by peejayd
* according to the Bible..."Judge not, that ye be not judged."
Matthew 7:1* this statement is true but to whom does this statement really applies to? let us continue...
"For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured unto you.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me cast out the mote out of thine eye; and lo, the beam is in thine own eye?
Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
Matthew 7:2-5* those people who are hypocrites that always tend to judge others whilst they are the ones doing worse...
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
I see.I always thought that the Christians were all about the NT, because OT is Jewish cripture.
Hmm...interesting.
Many Christians tend to discount the OT due to the statement that Christ fulfilled the Law. They take this as meaning the Law is no longer in effect and thus can be ignored if it doesn't fit them. I am Mormon, so our view is often dissimilar to many Christians in that our perspectives are different. To understand a Mormon's view one should read the Book of Mormon (BoM) and perhaps the Doctrine and Covenants (D&C) as well, but the D&C should often be read in context with the Church history at the time for more clarity on its text. All the same Mormon's believe the Bible and feel our views fit and are supported by the Bible, the Book of Mormon is just another record of God's dealings with man, not a replacement to the Bible.
Originally posted by peejayd
* according to the Bible..."Judge not, that ye be not judged."
Matthew 7:1* this statement is true but to whom does this statement really applies to? let us continue...
"For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured unto you.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me cast out the mote out of thine eye; and lo, the beam is in thine own eye?
Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
Matthew 7:2-5* those people who are hypocrites that always tend to judge others whilst they are the ones doing worse...
This text, imo, should be read while considering this:
John 8:3-11
3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
The pharisees were not all adulterers, they were merely sinners. They were unable to judge and condemn the woman because they were sinners, not because they were adulterers. It is not enough to not have that sin, one needs to have no sin if one is going to judge righteously. And this is within the Jewish group, where Christ states judgement may occur. So is the group really capable of judging even amongst themselves?
Originally posted by peejayd
* the Bible also supplies that there are instances that people are permitted to judge but with this condition..."Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment."
John 7:24* it was somewhat synonymous to, "don't judge a book by its cover"... a good judgment is a righteous one... but to whom should people judge? can people judge everyone?
But is it speaking of judging the individual? Also, he is speaking to the Judges in Israel when he states this, it is their duty to Judge in Israel because they have been directly appointed to do such. Also, once again, the Judges were not worthy to judge righteously because they were sinners, which the Bible states all men are, so who is without sin that may judge?
Originally posted by peejayd
"But God will judge the ones outside. And you shall put out from yourselves the evil one."
I Corinthians 5:13* people can judge righteously within their own group, those who are outside their group, it is God's judgment that should be respected...
I can agree to within their group, because the group has agreed to live in a specific manner. Thus they have agreed to be judged. But this does not validate the idea of judging those not of their group.
Originally posted by peejayd
* so basically, if a religious group professes that those people who are outside their Church will not be saved, then that group is not in accordance with the Bible... 😉
Agreed.
Re: Re: Biblical discussion on judging others
Originally posted by Alfheim
I think i know the exact passage you are talking about. Funnily enough I had only looked it up once and when you read on it says something like this....how can you tell your brother that he has something in your eye if you have something in your eye too? Remove the object in your eye then advise your brother.Nothing wrong with that, but it basically says if you are going to judge others then sort yourself out first.
Yes this is the passage.
I hope my post responding to Peejayd was adequate for addressing this as well.
Originally posted by Regret
Knowledge has altered. Prior to Christ, miracles and prophets abounded. Following Christ it appears that the two have been nearly absent, the Christian religions cannot agree on if miracles have happened, and they deny that prophets have. There is no longer the knowledge as it existed during the OT. The NT has governed life in Christianity for nearly two thousand years, it was written for that period of time. The OT and NT are not unnecessary, they are evidence of a treatment that worked, they should be studied for their impact on their subject and their description of the treatment from the subjects view.This, is my view, in a way. It isn't necessarily absolute and it evolved as I considered your remarks, and may evolve further. I also believe varying perspectives exist, and so I look at it from varying perspectives, some fall away due to an evidence making that view wrong. Some persist and depending on what area of thought I am studying, I will shift from one view to another. Urizen has commented on this from time to time, and gets frustrated if it occurs while speaking with him, so if it happens in the future I apologize.
Lil's comment is a good starting place for the first part.
For the second, if god has some hand in spreading the Bible around (unconscious or not) (which I believe you would believe in, since you believe in continuous prophets), I don't think people really could have an excuse. If "god" "came and died for our sins"...and then people wrote about it in the first and most widely published book in history...which has then been translated into practically every languace I know perhaps save Mandalorian....I would think that god would be pretty angry that we didn't get it by know.
My Deism says that God, if he is there, gave use reason and intellect. Humans are not stupid, though they may act as such. Repetativeness shouldnt have to matter.
Originally posted by Alliance
Lil's comment is a good starting place for the first part.For the second, if god has some hand in spreading the Bible around (unconscious or not) (which I believe you would believe in, since you believe in continuous prophets), I don't think people really could have an excuse. If "god" "came and died for our sins"...and then people wrote about it in the first and most widely published book in history...which has then been translated into practically every languace I know perhaps save Mandalorian....I would think that god would be pretty angry that we didn't get it by know.
My Deism says that God, if he is there, gave use reason and intellect. Humans are not stupid, though they may act as such. Repetativeness shouldnt have to matter.
I don't think the Bible is what they are supposed to get. It is the behavior that God is trying to get us to grasp. The Bible isn't the "what" it is merely a tool to aid us in grasping how we should behave. Christ's Atonement is the satisfier of justice, it is the event that allows God to in effect take the brunt of the consequences of our inappropriate actions without denying justice. While this is in a Christian's view the most important event in history, it is not what God wants us to get. He wants men to behave unselfishly, to care for the well being of others above our own. I don't believe these concepts are easily placed into action in our lives, due to the ease with which desires can be sated in manners that are inconsistent with these teachings. The Bible, and all of God's word to man is merely direction that is needed to help use return to the proper manner of behavior when we stray from it. And at times we have strayed very far from it.
Originally posted by Regret
This text, imo, should be read while considering this:
* i'm sorry, my friend, but John 7:53 up to John 8:12 were spuriously added in the Bible and are not included in the original manuscript... so i'm going to be on the safe side - "no comment"... 🙂
Originally posted by Regret
The pharisees were not all adulterers, they were merely sinners. They were unable to judge and condemn the woman because they were sinners, not because they were adulterers. It is not enough to not have that sin, one needs to have no sin if one is going to judge righteously. And this is within the Jewish group, where Christ states judgement may occur. So is the group really capable of judging even amongst themselves?
* therefore, the members of the true Church in the Bible really do have the authority to judge...
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin ; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
I John 3:9
"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."
I John 5:18
* but still only within their group...
Originally posted by Regret
But is it speaking of judging the individual? Also, he is speaking to the Judges in Israel when he states this, it is their duty to Judge in Israel because they have been directly appointed to do such. Also, once again, the Judges were not worthy to judge righteously because they were sinners, which the Bible states all men are, so who is without sin that may judge?
* John 7:24 clearly states that it is okay to judge but with the condition of not have it based on a person's appearance, but unto the will of God, so the judgment would be a righteous one... let us read a scenario regarding the prophet Samuel...
"But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart."
I Samuel 16:7
* so basically, people can judge others (only within their group) carrying the basis of the word of God...
* that's why there are suspensions and excommunications in the true Church in the Bible, the ground of judgment is based on the teachings of Christ, if a person violates the doctrine, there should be a disciplinary action...
* for first and second offense...
"After the first and second warning, avoid a man of heresy,"
Titus 3:10
* if the person still continues to violate the doctrine inspite of those warnings...
"But God will judge the ones outside. And you shall put out from yourselves the evil one."
I Corinthians 5:13
* excommunicate the person... that is a righteous judgment within the true Church in the Bible...
Originally posted by Regret
I can agree to within their group, because the group has agreed to live in a specific manner. Thus they have agreed to be judged. But this does not validate the idea of judging those not of their group.
* yes, because if a group claims that they are of God, then they should not judge people outside their group, for the Bible tells us that God will judge those who are outside the Church (provided, if the group is really of God and abides the law of God in the Bible)...
Originally posted by Regret
Agreed.
* agreed... 😉
Originally posted by peejayd
* i'm sorry, my friend, but John 7:53 up to John 8:12 were spuriously added in the Bible and are not included in the original manuscript... so i'm going to be on the safe side - "no comment"... 🙂* therefore, the members of the true Church in the Bible really do have the authority to judge...
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin ; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
I John 3:9"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."
I John 5:18* but still only within their group...
* John 7:24 clearly states that it is okay to judge but with the condition of not have it based on a person's appearance, but unto the will of God, so the judgment would be a righteous one... let us read a scenario regarding the prophet Samuel...
"But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart."
I Samuel 16:7* so basically, people can judge others (only within their group) carrying the basis of the word of God...
* that's why there are suspensions and excommunications in the true Church in the Bible, the ground of judgment is based on the teachings of Christ, if a person violates the doctrine, there should be a disciplinary action...
* for first and second offense...
"After the first and second warning, avoid a man of heresy,"
Titus 3:10* if the person still continues to violate the doctrine inspite of those warnings...
"But God will judge the ones outside. And you shall put out from yourselves the evil one."
I Corinthians 5:13* excommunicate the person... that is a righteous judgment within the true Church in the Bible...
* yes, because if a group claims that they are of God, then they should not judge people outside their group, for the Bible tells us that God will judge those who are outside the Church (provided, if the group is really of God and abides the law of God in the Bible)...
* agreed... 😉
I think I agree with what you have stated, although I am still leery of conceding that many, if any, fit into these verses:
Originally posted by peejayd
* therefore, the members of the true Church in the Bible really do have the authority to judge..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin ; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
I John 3:9"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."
I John 5:18
I believe that if a person is truly born of God, that that individual "doth not commit sin", but I believe it to be a proud individual to claim such a thing. And if a person were such, they would not, imo, judge another. Christ himself stated that he, being perfect, would not judge unless it was necessary, and only with the father would he do so.
John 8:15-16
15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
This supports the idea that judging is not something man should do, and while we may among our group, this would lead me to be very cautious about making a judgement about another.
Originally posted by Regret
I think I agree with what you have stated, although I am still leery of conceding that many, if any, fit into these verses:
* yes, but believe me, there is only one group that will fit in those verses, and that is the true Church in the Bible...
Originally posted by Regret
I believe that [b]if a person is truly born of God, that that individual "doth not commit sin", but I believe it to be a proud individual to claim such a thing. And if a person were such, they would not, imo, judge another. Christ himself stated that he, being perfect, would not judge unless it was necessary, and only with the father would he do so. [/B]
* i do agree with you in that instance but, the Bible also supplies and suggests that there are really people that are perfect in the eyes of God and have the authority to judge... however, you are correct, my friend, claiming is one thing and PROVING is another thing... only God can justly say that this certain person is perfect, not a person just only claiming that he is perfect...
"Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Matthew 5:48
"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfected; be comforted; be of the same mind; live in peace: and the God of love and peace shall be with you."
II Corinthians 13:11
* there is a commandment from Christ and Saint Paul for the people of God to be perfect, so it would be impertinent for them to command it if no one can really achieve perfectness... not perfectness according to the eyes of man but of God...
"These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, and perfect in his generations: Noah walked with God."
Genesis 6:9
* for example, Noah is perfect...
"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and turned away from evil."
Job 1:1
"And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause."
Job 2:3
* as is Job...
"Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye are otherwise minded, this also shall God reveal unto you:"
Philippians 3:15
* and the Christians in the first century... because they prosper in love and charity...
"And above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfectness."
Colossians 3:14
* blessed are those whose sins are forgiven, whose sins are not counted, not imputed and not reckoned by God...
"Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, And whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom, the Lord will not reckon sin."
The Romans 4:8
* because those people were washed, sanctified and justified by God...
"And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God."
I Corinthians 6:11
* so that's it... 🙂
Originally posted by Regret
This supports the idea that judging is not something man should do, and while we may among our group, this would lead me to be very cautious about making a judgement about another.
* agreed, we should all be cautious... 😉
Originally posted by peejayd
* yes, but believe me, there is only one group that will fit in those verses, and that is the true Church in the Bible...* i do agree with you in that instance but, the Bible also supplies and suggests that there are really people that are perfect in the eyes of God and have the authority to judge... however, you are correct, my friend, claiming is one thing and PROVING is another thing... only God can justly say that this certain person is perfect, not a person just only claiming that he is perfect...
"Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Matthew 5:48"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfected; be comforted; be of the same mind; live in peace: and the God of love and peace shall be with you."
II Corinthians 13:11* there is a commandment from Christ and Saint Paul for the people of God to be perfect, so it would be impertinent for them to command it if no one can really achieve perfectness... not perfectness according to the eyes of man but of God...
"These are the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, and perfect in his generations: Noah walked with God."
Genesis 6:9* for example, Noah is perfect...
"There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and turned away from evil."
Job 1:1"And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause."
Job 2:3* as is Job...
"Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye are otherwise minded, this also shall God reveal unto you:"
Philippians 3:15* and the Christians in the first century... because they prosper in love and charity...
"And above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfectness."
Colossians 3:14* blessed are those whose sins are forgiven, whose sins are not counted, not imputed and not reckoned by God...
"Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, And whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man to whom, the Lord will not reckon sin."
The Romans 4:8* because those people were washed, sanctified and justified by God...
"And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God."
I Corinthians 6:11* so that's it... 🙂
* agreed, we should all be cautious... 😉
Agreed.
As to the following. I basically agree with you, I don't know for sure if these people would "know" that they were in the position, and I doubt they would judge unless told to. And if they know, I believe they would probably keep it to themselves. Mormons also believe that Moses achieved it by the end of his time.
Originally posted by peejayd
* i do agree with you in that instance but, the Bible also supplies and suggests that there are really people that are perfect in the eyes of God and have the authority to judge... however, you are correct, my friend, claiming is one thing and PROVING is another thing... only God can justly say that this certain person is perfect, not a person just only claiming that he is perfect...
Originally posted by Regret
I think that is what occurs in many Christians, but I don't think it was Docb's intent.
I doubt any person has the qualifications to truly judge.
Originally posted by Regret
I believe we can't judge ourselves either. We should merely attempt to do good and show charity to everyone as frequently as possible, we should live to serve others. This should be our goal, imo, to impact as many individuals in a positive manner while we have the ability, with no regard to our personal "salvation", "heaven", "reward", etc. Perfection isn't the goal, near perfection might be a byproduct to achieving this though, but in this life? Doubtful we'd get close. Perfection is not a goal, it is a marker reminding a person of his position as an equal to most people in position by comparison.
Sounds very Liberal 😉
Originally posted by Regret
As of today, I agree, but I do believe there may have been a few throughout history.
Maybe Mother Teresa. But even she never judged anyone..she only aimed to help and alleviate suffering....now SHE is a truly good person...a real Saint...none of this yelling "Blasphemy" bullshit.
Just genuine love, that lacks judgement of any kind.
Originally posted by Regret
Perhaps 😉
I know...i know...u dread that word. 😘
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Maybe Mother Teresa. But even she never judged anyone..she only aimed to help and alleviate suffering....now SHE is a truly good person...a real Saint...none of this yelling "Blasphemy" bullshit.Just genuine love, that lacks judgement of any kind.
Like I said, if people like this exist, I doubt they would judge another.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I know...i know...u dread that word. 😘
I dread the word due to the fact that things like Penthouse, Bill Clinton in the Oval Office with Monica, and other things like this are considered liberal, and I don't want to be lumped in with that type of thing.