Chick Tracts and the Bible why the discrimination?

Chick Tracts and the Bible why the discrimination?
Pg. 35

Originally posted by Bat Dude
Hello again, everybody.

I have to disagree about the Rapture. I know many Christians want to believe that we will be lifted out of the world before the Tribulation when all of the chaos and such occurs.

I don't think we will. I think we're gonna be right here in the middle of it all. If you look in the Merriam-Webster dictionary, tribulation is defined as:

"distress or suffering resulting from oppression or persecution; also: a trying experience"

So if tribulation means "suffering resulting from persecution" or "a trying experience", why on earth are the Christians gonna be excused from this? Who are the ones that are gonna be persecuted during all of this? Who are the ones that are gonna be tried?

The Christians are, of course! The Antichrist is gonna persecute the Christians with an iron fist. And a Christian's faith is truly gonna be tried/tested (without the mark, we won't be able to buy food or water, so a lot of us will starve, and some might be desperate enough to take the mark at that point)

And besides, if the Christians all leave the earth right when the Tribulation starts, who will help the people that are on the fence? (unbelievers that have yet to receive the mark)

A pre-Tribulation rapture doesn't make any sense to me.

The believers that will be tried during the tribulation are believers that have come out of the tribulation i.e. new believers and those believers who were left behind. God will prove for time and eternity during the tribulation period that in spite of His terrible judgments, there will still be many people who will not repent of their wicked ways and call on Jesus Christ for salvation.

This is the purpose of the tribulation.

However, the Bible reveals that God has not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

All of the Scriptures in the New Testament that deal with trials, wrath, enduring to the end, etc. relative to the tribulation is talking about believers who became saved during the tribulation period, and those believers who were left behind during the Rapture.

Again, God has not appointed us to wrath. Just as Noah and his family were spared God’s judgment against sinful humanity during the flood, and just as Lot and his family were spared God’s wrath against Sodom and Gomorrah, believers today will also be spared in like manner. I have even heard Bible teachers describe Noah and his family’s salvation as a type of Rapture for their generation considering how high the boat was from the ground as it was carried along by the high floodwaters.

But the point is that in both situations, God’s righteous remnant was spared His wrath against sin.

Your understanding of tribulation as defined by Merriam-Webster is not talking about the tribulation period which marks the last seven years of human government. It’s just talking about tribulation in general, the word tribulation as a word being defined. Believers do not need to go through a specific tribulation period which the Book of Revelation, the Gospels, and other New Testament writings refer to in order to be tried and persecuted. We are already being tried and persecuted now because of our faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus told His disciples,

33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world. (John 16:33)

The disciples and other early believers went through all kinds of persecution (some even killed) while eagerly anticipating the Lord’s return. Early believers expected the Lord Jesus to return in their lifetime. Paul was so convinced that there wasn’t much time left that he wrote,

29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none, 30 those who weep as though they did not weep, those who rejoice as though they did not rejoice, those who buy as though they did not possess, 31 and those who use this world as not misusing it. For the form of this world is passing away. (1 Corinthians 7:29-31)

The point is that early believers had confident hope of Jesus returning in their lifetimes to take them back to Heaven. Jesus told the early believers,

“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.” (John 14:1)

The antichrist will persecute and ultimately kill all who maintain their faith relationship with Jesus Christ during the tribulation in an effort to get them to renounce Jesus, and accept his mark (i.e. the mark of the beast).

There will be unbelievers who confess Jesus as their Lord and Savior during the tribulation period. In addition, there will be lukewarm believers who become hot for Christ during this time as well. The tribulation will serve as a sort of eye opener for those lukewarm believers who have been left behind after the Rapture takes place. Many of them will become bold witnesses and evangelists turning many to Christ, while others will succumb to their worst fear and capitulate. The toll of not being able to buy or sell, without the mark of the beast, and the prospect of losing their lives will prove too much for them.

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
The Rapture or Harpazo or catching away of the church into the clouds and ultimatley Heaven is likened to the Groom claiming His spotless bride.

Jesus Christ is the Groom the church is His bride.

The Rapture is not for unbelievers, it is for believers i.e. those who have already confessed Jesus Christ as Lord.

Jesus is not coming back for unbelievers at this juncture so there's no way for an unbeliever to go up in the Rapture.

You must already be saved to be eligible to go up in the Rapture.

That is why I quoted Galatians 6:7.

Where is it stated that's there's an expiration date for being saved by the love of Jesus? ie "you must accept Jesus as your personal savior on or before this date, or be doomed." Show me in scripture, I don't recall it.

I don't think you know why you quoted Galatians, it had nothing to do with accepting Jesus once undeniable proof is witness, as was Zampano' point of view.

Originally posted by Robtard
Where is it stated that's there's an expiration date for being saved by the love of Jesus? ie "you must accept Jesus as your personal savior on or before this date, or be doomed." Show me in scripture, I don't recall it.

My Mormon powers allow me to tell you that you can be saved, even after you die. 🙂

For reasons not fully known, it is harder to accept the gospel in the afterlife than it is in the flesh (I have several theories on this), but it is still possible and billions will do so in the afterlife. The only way to NOT be "saved" is to actively reject the Plan of Salvation after you have a sure (objective...yes...an eternal knowledge...something truly objective) knowledge of its truthfulness. That's a fairly solid system where not a single soul is lost and not a single soul is forced to obey the gospel.

Originally posted by dadudemon
My Mormon powers allow me to tell you that you can be saved, even after you die. 🙂

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" (Hebrews 9:27)

Once we die, it's over. We either got saved or didn't. At that point, we're either in heaven or hell. There is no "posthumous baptism" or "posthumous salvation".

We are finite beings, right? We have about 85 -90 years on this planet, if we're lucky.

How in the world is it just for anyone to receive INFINITE punishment for finite number of sins?
That idea in itself is unjust.

Just research how the Bible came to be. The whole council of Nicea thing. Basically a bunch of guys locked themselves in a room with hundreds of "gospels" that had been written and decided which ones were to be included. This was a good 600 years after the events described in the books. So the fact that Jack Chick just puts in whatever scare tactics and false truths that he wants, isn't all that different from what people have used the bible for during the last 2000 years.

Originally posted by Bat Dude
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" (Hebrews 9:27)

One we die, it's over. We either got saved or didn't. At that point, we're either in heaven or hell. There is no "posthumous baptism" or "posthumous salvation".

This is generally my favorite thing to argue about when it comes to the gospel.

If we are instantly judged upon death and then sent to heaven or hell, then first tell me where hell is in the bible (hint, it is not there...only modernly have we placed the word hell into the bible).

Next, posthumous baptism is explicitly mentioned in the new testament.

1 Corinthians 15:29

And THEN....

Mark 16: 15-16 says that you must be baptized to be saved. How is that possible for billions of people that never got the chance to accept the gospel? 🙁

And it clearly states that the "last day" is when that judgement will occur.

John 12:48

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

Two revelations come from that: in order to reject Christ's words, one has to have received them. That means that for billions that have died without even coming close to hearing the gospel, the MUST be given a chance to receive or reject the gospel...according to Christ. Else they cannot be judged at the Last Day. So what happens after they die and before the Last Day of Judgement?

Enter the dot connection:

1 Peter 3:19

"By which also he [Jesus Christ] went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"

So why would Jesus be preaching the gospel to the spirits in prison? Wait...what happens to the "heathen" when they die? They did not accept the gospel and were not saved. So where to they go? AHA! Some sort of spiritual prison (it is all in the mind, imho) because they are waiting on someone with authority to act in God's name to baptize for them, and receive the Holy Ghost. We all must be baptized ... so how is that possible? It's not...unless we posthumously baptize on behalf of those spirits in prison. 🙂

So at this point, you believe in an evil God that does not account for all souls but only those souls that got lucky enough to hear the gospel, accept it, and receive baptism. What a cruel and unmerciful God. No wonder many atheists scoff at the notion of most Christians considering their god "omnibenevolent": you leave the door wide open by saying cruel things like, "Your grandma went to hell because she didn't get baptized". That's not cool. Can you blame the skeptical atheists with your type of approach to the gospel?

Finally, and lastly...Revelations 7:9-10 condemns your conclusion:

"After this I beheld, and, see, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb."

Their confession is only possible IF they have heard, recognized, and accepted the gospel.

So at some point between death and the Last Day of Judgement, these "heathens" will get the full gospel of Jesus Christ. Since God gave us free will, we will have the chance to accept or reject it IF we did not get it in this life. But the teachings of Paul tell us that the "heathen" will be judged according to their own laws that they had in their own lands...so it is not as though everyone that didn't hear the gospel gets off scot-free and is insta-saved before the Last Day of Judgement.

This is part of why I am a Mormon. A truly merciful and omnibenevolent God would have thought of everything to allow everyone to save themselves with ample opportunity. Mormons believe that it is harder to accept the gospel and repent of your wicked ways, in the afterlife, so it is still important to life a good life in this life while here. This is why I think many atheists, even antitheistic atheists, could still be saved without a hitch.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
We are finite beings, right? We have about 85 -90 years on this planet, if we're lucky.

How in the world is it just for anyone to receive INFINITE punishment for finite number of sins?
That idea in itself is unjust.

Bingo. Things do not seem to add up when a bit of perspective is applied.

It says in the Bible in order to be baptized, one must repent (Acts 2:38) and believe on the Lord Jesus (Mark 16:16, Acts 16:31). In essence, one must be saved to be baptized.

The Bible also says the dead know nothing and have no further part in anything done under the sun (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6). How can they repent of their sins when they've already died in their sins?

You can't be redeemed when you've already lived your whole life in sin and lies and died without ever repenting. And a dead man can't repent.

For the people that you claim never heard the Gospel, this is what the Bible has to say about them: "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" (Romans 1:20)

These are God's rules, not mine. If you have a problem with no posthumous salvation, your problem is with God. We get one chance, and once our life is over, so is the struggle. Either we got saved or not.

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:13)

A truly merciful and omnibenevolent God would have thought of everything to allow everyone to save themselves with ample opportunity.

There's your problem right there. We can't save ourselves. If we could, we would have no need for a Saviour. But we do. And His name is Jesus. If you believe we can save ourselves, you might as well throw the whole Bible out the window.

Originally posted by Bat Dude
The Bible also says the dead know nothing

So heaven is just a fancy word for oblivion?

Seems Heaven's full of drooling morons wandering around aimlessly then?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
We are finite beings, right? We have about 85 -90 years on this planet, if we're lucky.

How in the world is it just for anyone to receive INFINITE punishment for finite number of sins?
That idea in itself is unjust.

You just don't appreciate the immaculate circularity.

Originally posted by Bat Dude
It says in the Bible in order to be baptized, one must repent (Acts 2:38) and believe on the Lord Jesus (Mark 16:16, Acts 16:31). In essence, one must be saved to be baptized.

Addressed this already...so what of the ignorant? How are they supposed to be saved?

Originally posted by Bat Dude
The Bible also says the dead know nothing and have no further part in anything done under the sun (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6). How can they repent of their sins when they've already died in their sins?

That chapter has many interpretations. However, one thing you should know is many Jews believed in a death sleep. Meaning, their consciousness/spirit sleeps upon death. They go to Sheol. This was an old testament belief.

And I answered your question already: how can all of God's children/spirits confess the name of Jesus Christ and praise God at the final Judgement UNLESS, of course, they had come to a knowledge of Jesus Christ after they died but before the Final Judgement? This is the bane of those that wish to assign damnation to everyone.

Originally posted by Bat Dude
You can't be redeemed when you've already lived your whole life in sin and lies and died without ever repenting. And a dead man can't repent.

I can rephrase everything:

You can be redeemed when you've already lived your whole life in sin because all live their whole life in sin but the atonement is for everyone, not just a few select individuals lucky enough to be born at the right place and time. A dead person can repent as a spirit if that spirit would have received the gospel but did not get the chance to live it and grow with it. It is an unrighteous and mean-spirited thought that those individuals not lucky enough to live their life by the gospel, would be consigned to damnation.

Originally posted by Bat Dude
For the people that you claim never heard the Gospel, this is what the Bible has to say about them: "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" (Romans 1:20)

This is a case of you interpreting the scriptures, unrighteously, to fit your agenda against the heathen.

Here's a bunch of scriptures that contradict your particular interpretation:

Hmmm. Looks like the gospel is preached to those that did not have it. 😐

1 Timothy 4:10

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."

So it would appear that Jesus is the savior of all men, especially those that believe. But that implied is those that do not believe/cannot believe. Well, we know they eventually believe because they will confess it at the Final Judgement. 🙂 So how can this be?

John 15:22

"If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin."

Seems as though having the gospel truth makes you more responsible for your sins. It would appear ignorance is a partial saving grace for the heathen, huh?

But let's expand on this even further with Christ's words:

John 15:24

"If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father."

So it appears that just having a knowledge of God/Christ is condemning. So it would appear that those ignorant of the gospel clearly exist. But, again, we know that all will eventually confess the name of God at the last judgment. So they must be taught the gospel at some point.

That's right:

Through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago

1 Peter 3:19-20

"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

Makes sense, now, doesn't it? We all must be confess, repent, and be baptized to be saved. How is that possible after a heaten dies? It is not. So there is obviously a way. This is why the gospel is preached to the spirits in prison (spirit prison) and this is how, at final judgement, all of us confess the name of the most high.

Originally posted by Bat Dude
These are God's rules, not mine. If you have a problem with no posthumous salvation, your problem is with God. We get one chance, and once our life is over, so is the struggle. Either we got saved or not.

Your interpretation of those scriptures are you words, not God's. If you have a problem with posthumous salvation, you should stop being a Christian because it is clearly in the bible there, already, for you. The only thing Mormonism does is expounds on what is already there with modern revelation and prophets: the core of the gospel is still there. One thing that Mormonism does that other Christians do not is we readily admit that the scriptures have errors in them. We admit the prophets and apostles, both new and old, are not perfect and fallible. If the rest of the Christian community could make that crucial step, it would serve a long way towards amending past mistakes and ideologies. It would god a long way in helping the atheistic and agnostic become less opposed to us.

Also, this may not be the "only chance", sir. Reincarnation is a possibility and it is supported with scripture.

1 Corinthians 15:21

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed..."

Also, here is another supporting scripture for reincarnation:

Revelation 3:12

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."

How can a person "go out no more" if they were not consistently being reincarnated into the mortal plan? Exactly. Unless, of course, there are lives beyond this life, which is what the Mormons believe (and what most Christians believe without realizing it). So, obviously, we do not get just one chance. We get multiple chances.

Originally posted by Bat Dude
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:13)

That last little bit is actually a support for what I am trying to tell you. Few people will actually find and adhere to the gospel in this life. We know that billions have passed and not had it.

Originally posted by Bat Dude
There's your problem right there. We can't save ourselves. If we could, we would have no need for a Saviour. But we do. And His name is Jesus. If you believe we can save ourselves, you might as well throw the whole Bible out the window.

Actually, we can save ourselves. That's absolutely necessary to be saved. It just so happens we need help in saving ourselves. There is two portions to this salvation: our repentance, confession, and humbleness and then the atonement of Christ. If we had not choice in whether or not we were saved, then this life would be meaningless. If one believes that we are required to save ourselves, we might as well start reading our bible to find out how we can be saved. 🙂

Just because Jesus has died for our sins does not mean we are instantly saved: not at all. We still have to do quite a bit to get there and God bridges the gap for the rest. This is key and something you need to recognize.

Originally posted by Robtard
Seems Heaven's full of drooling morons wandering around aimlessly then?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
So heaven is just a fancy word for oblivion?

I answer this question in my post. 😄

Chick Tracts are all about scare tactics. I grew up with those at my church when I was a child. They are horrible and full of lies. how could such a thing be put out when no one knows what happens in those situations? It is all about CONVERSION AND THE MIGHY DOLLAR...

Originally posted by Deja~vu
Chick Tracts are all about scare tactics. I grew up with those at my church when I was a child. They are horrible and full of lies. how could such a thing be put out when no one knows what happens in those situations? It is all about CONVERSION AND THE MIGHY DOLLAR...

You are correct, my dear. Wish people would stop and realize that almost all religion is about making money. 🙁

Originally posted by dadudemon
You are correct, my dear. Wish people would stop and realize that almost all religion is about making money. 🙁

sad

Originally posted by dadudemon
Your interpretation of those scriptures are you words, not God's. If you have a problem with posthumous salvation, you should stop being a Christian because it is clearly in the bible there, already, for you. The only thing Mormonism does is expounds on what is already there with modern revelation and prophets: the core of the gospel is still there. One thing that Mormonism does that other Christians do not is we readily admit that the scriptures have errors in them. We admit the prophets and apostles, both new and old, are not perfect and fallible. If the rest of the Christian community could make that crucial step, it would serve a long way towards amending past mistakes and ideologies. It would god a long way in helping the atheistic and agnostic become less opposed to us.

No, posthumous salvation is not in the Bible. All you did in your "rebuttal" of me is say I misinterpreted scripture. You gave no evidence of what you're saying.

A person gets one chance to repent. One chance to come to God. One. This life. If we got multiple chances, there would be no urgency. It gives people a license to just sin and live like the devil! They would have no reason to come to repentance, because they would just think, "Oh, well, I'll just get out my get out of jail free card in the afterlife and all will be forgiven." It doesn't work that way. If you don't come to repentance in THIS life, you don't go to heaven.

Also, this may not be the "only chance", sir. Reincarnation is a possibility and it is supported with scripture.

Supported by scripture? REINCARNATION? You have to be kidding me! You're really grasping at straws now! Let me show you a couple places that contradict your claim:

First is Hebrews 9:27
" And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

Next is Matthew 25:46
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Next is Luke 16:22-23
"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

That last little bit is actually a support for what I am trying to tell you. Few people will actually find and adhere to the gospel in this life. We know that billions have passed and not had it.

How on earth did Matthew 7:13 support what you said? Read it again. Actually, I'll help break it down:

"Enter ye in at the strait gate:"
-Pretty simple to understand.

"for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"
-So now we know that the way that leads to destruction is broad and wide, and LOTS of people are gonna go that way. If that's the case, lots of people will never come to repentance. Sounds a lot like the way to hell, doesn't it?

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
-So now we know that the way which leads to life is narrow, and few people will find it. Sounds an awful lot like the way to heaven, doesn't it?

And let's go forward a little more and bring up more scripture to back that interpretation up:

"Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (Matthew 3:12)

We can either be wheat or chaff.

There's probably more, but I have to head to work in about an hour, so I can't go through all the scriptures right now.

Actually, we can save ourselves. That's absolutely necessary to be saved. It just so happens we need help in saving ourselves. There is two portions to this salvation: our repentance, confession, and humbleness and then the atonement of Christ. If we had not choice in whether or not we were saved, then this life would be meaningless. If one believes that we are required to save ourselves, we might as well start reading our bible to find out how we can be saved. 🙂

Oh we have a choice in whether or not we repent and get saved, but that doesn't mean we're the ones doing the saving. Why do we call Jesus Christ our Saviour if we were the ones that save ourselves? The notion that we are good enough to save ourselves goes completely against the Bible. If you believe we can save ourselves, again, you might as well throw your whole Bible away.

The fact that we CAN'T save ourselves is the reason Jesus had to die on the cross FOR US! By accepting Jesus Christ as your Saviour for what He did on the cross, you, in essence, are being redeemed by God. It has nothing to do with your ability to save yourself. That would be works based religion. Christianity is the only religion in the world that is NOT works based, as badly as some try to make it into one. That's why it gives so many people hope.

Originally posted by Bat Dude
...The fact that we CAN'T save ourselves is the reason Jesus had to die on the cross FOR US!...

There is nothing to be saved from, and Jesus die on the cross (if he even died on the cross) to establish is cult.

Yeah what is Jesus going to save us from? There isnt a Hell, so that blows it all to pieces. So, if there isnt a Hell, then what is he saving us from?

Originally posted by Deja~vu
Yeah what is Jesus going to save us from? There isnt a Hell, so that blows it all to pieces. So, if there isnt a Hell, then what is he saving us from?

The term saved is originally from Buddhism. It means to be saved from the suffering of birth and death. Even Buddha talked about saving people. However, he would have not approved of a champion taking away the suffering. This does not lead to happiness. People must free themselves by removing attachments in life.

Originally posted by Bat Dude
No, posthumous salvation is not in the Bible. All you did in your "rebuttal" of me is say I misinterpreted scripture. You gave no evidence of what you're saying.

A person gets one chance to repent. One chance to come to God. One. This life. If we got multiple chances, there would be no urgency. It gives people a license to just sin and live like the devil! They would have no reason to come to repentance, because they would just think, "Oh, well, I'll just get out my get out of jail free card in the afterlife and all will be forgiven." It doesn't work that way. If you don't come to repentance in THIS life, you don't go to heaven.

Supported by scripture? REINCARNATION? You have to be kidding me! You're really grasping at straws now! Let me show you a couple places that contradict your claim:

First is Hebrews 9:27
" And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

Next is Matthew 25:46
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Next is Luke 16:22-23
"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

How on earth did Matthew 7:13 support what you said? Read it again. Actually, I'll help break it down:

"Enter ye in at the strait gate:"
-Pretty simple to understand.

"for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"
-So now we know that the way that leads to destruction is broad and wide, and LOTS of people are gonna go that way. If that's the case, lots of people will never come to repentance. Sounds a lot like the way to hell, doesn't it?

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
-So now we know that the way which leads to life is narrow, and few people will find it. Sounds an awful lot like the way to heaven, doesn't it?

And let's go forward a little more and bring up more scripture to back that interpretation up:

"Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (Matthew 3:12)

We can either be wheat or chaff.

There's probably more, but I have to head to work in about an hour, so I can't go through all the scriptures right now.

Oh we have a choice in whether or not we repent and get saved, but that doesn't mean we're the ones doing the saving. Why do we call Jesus Christ our Saviour if we were the ones that save ourselves? The notion that we are good enough to save ourselves goes completely against the Bible. If you believe we can save ourselves, again, you might as well throw your whole Bible away.

The fact that we CAN'T save ourselves is the reason Jesus had to die on the cross FOR US! By accepting Jesus Christ as your Saviour for what He did on the cross, you, in essence, are being redeemed by God. It has nothing to do with your ability to save yourself. That would be works based religion. Christianity is the only religion in the world that is NOT works based, as badly as some try to make it into one. That's why it gives so many people hope.

Outstanding.