As of NJO, the only Jedi besides Luke who could possibly defeat Sidious (IMO the weaker of the pair) is Kyp. Even then it's iffy. I don't see Luke taking down Exar and Sidious at the same time, amulet or not.
In anycase, the NJO pwns the duo.
I believe Jacen becomes more powerful than Kyp.
This was stated in Bloodlines, although it's reliability isn't perfect.
Kyp? No way.
And Betrayal states Vergere knew Palpatine would become the greatest living force of destruction the galaxy would see. Lumiya was terrified of him, even with her apprentices to challenge him.
So, we have that...History of the Sith, the New Essential Chronology, Dark Empire's sourcebook and handbook...
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Kyp? No way.And Betrayal states Vergere knew Palpatine would become the greatest living force of destruction the galaxy would see. Lumiya was terrified of him, even with her apprentices to challenge him.
So, we have that...History of the Sith, the New Essential Chronology, Dark Empire's sourcebook and handbook...
Which says nothing about Kyp since he was a Jedi. Kyp becomes an uber force user as of NJO, and then is surpassed by Jacen and eventually Ben. Either way, all of these are superior to Sidious.
Originally posted by Lightsnake😄 😄 😄 😄 😄 😄
Ben? Will be. Not yet.
Kyp? No way. Kyp isn't half of what Luke is. Evidence? Kyp was unable to defeat a dying Slayer. Luke kills seven simultaneously. Kyp's very strong, but on the plateau of the ubers as Luke, Palpatine and YodaAnd Jacen isn't up to them. Yet. Neither is Ben.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ben? Will be. Not yet.
Kyp? No way. Kyp isn't half of what Luke is. Evidence? Kyp was unable to defeat a dying Slayer. Luke kills seven simultaneously. Kyp's very strong, but on the plateau of the ubers as Luke, Palpatine and YodaAnd Jacen isn't up to them. Yet. Neither is Ben.
But Kyp hardly excelled when it came to sworsmanship, forcewise he isn't too far from Luke.
Proof? Where's Kyp done anything to come close to Luke?
Ok, he moved some black holes...let's see him achieve a state of oneness with the Force, root himself in the Heart of the Force, hide planets with the Force, bring down starships with the force, emerald lightning Slayers...
No, forcewise, Kyp is pretty damn far
Glentract, Vergere believed Sidious to be "the most destructive living force in the galaxy", which is why she attempted to kill him.
Kun may be better than Sidious in lightsaber ability - but certainly not in Force skills. Palpatine can generate a Force Storm pretty damn easily, and nothing has given us the indication that Kun could survive it at all.
The best thing that he did was control the minds of Senators and engage Vodo in lightsaber combat. That's good (really good), but I'm of a mind to think that Yoda, Mace, Dooku, and Depa (possibly Anakin as well) are above Vodo in ability.
Sidious completely controlled the Imperial Starfleet - and electrocuted a batallion of Stormtroopers with a single Force lightning assault.
And this was before Dark Empire.
Originally posted by Escape81
Glentract, Vergere believed Sidious to be "the most destructive living force in the galaxy", which is why she attempted to kill him.
What makes you think that is in relation to his personal power? I don't see how that quote makes him seem powerful. I think it mean's what it says, he was destructive. Power isn't mentioned.
Originally posted by Escape81
Kun may be better than Sidious in lightsaber ability - but certainly not in Force skills. Palpatine can generate a Force Storm pretty damn easily, and nothing has given us the indication that Kun could survive it at all.
Sidious can't control the force storms though. Someone of Exar's strength could probably take Sidious with him, if not turn the storm back at Sidious as Luke and Leia did.
Originally posted by Escape81
The best thing that he did was control the minds of Senators and engage Vodo in lightsaber combat. That's good (really good), but I'm of a mind to think that Yoda, Mace, Dooku, and Depa (possibly Anakin as well) are above Vodo in ability.
I don't want to re-argue this for what must be the hundreth time, but I will if you want to. Vodo was definately on the level of Yoda. I strongly doubt that Anakin is above him, as well as Depa. What has Depa ever done to make her so powerful?
Exar also pwned Luke as a 4000 year old mad spirit.
Originally posted by Escape81
Sidious completely controlled the Imperial Starfleet - and electrocuted a batallion of Stormtroopers with a single Force lightning assault.
Controlled? I don't think so. Influenced to a small degree with battle meditation? Yes. It's a massively different feat.
Exar obliterated many Massassi Warriors as well as Nadd's spirit. I'd say that equals taking down a batallion of stormtroopers.
Originally posted by Escape81
And this was before [B]Dark Empire. [/B]
Is the difference between ROTJ Sidious and DE Sidious in force powers really all that big? It's not like Sidious gained much, if any, knowledge during the time he was regenerating. Yes, he got a lot better with a lightsaber, but why would his force powers be better?
What makes you think that is in relation to his personal power? I don't see how that quote makes him seem powerful. I think it mean's what it says, he was destructive. Power isn't mentioned.
Ah. How could it not relate to personal power? Palpatine wasn't Emperor of the galaxy at this time. He was merely Darth Sidious, master manipulator and puppet master. And, it simply doesn't mean that he's just destructive. It says that he is "the most destructive living force in the galaxy."
Jango Fett is destructive. Anakin Skywalker is destructive. Palpatine? Far more so.
Sidious can't control the force storms though. Someone of Exar's strength could probably take Sidious with him, if not turn the storm back at Sidious as Luke and Leia did.
That is true, but Sidious was only shown to be unable to control his Force Storm when he was confronted with an overwhelming mass of Force connection - three Skywalkers. And, even then, they could only perform such a thing temporarily.
Until such a time when you prove that Exar can match the Force connection of three Skywalkers (three individuals with Anakin's raw connection to the Force), I don't see Exar doing anything but dying against a Force Storm.
He wouldn't be taking Palpatine with him.
I don't want to re-argue this for what must be the hundreth time, but I will if you want to. Vodo was definately on the level of Yoda. I strongly doubt that Anakin is above him, as well as Depa. What has Depa ever done to make her so powerful?
Really? Definately on Yoda's level? Link me to something that proves this, Glentract. Or are you assuming simply because he was the great Exar Kun's master?
Exar also pwned Luke as a 4000 year old mad spirit.
He did. He imbued Kyp, too, with the power to raise the Sun Crusher. I am aware of Kun's power - and the distance between him and Palpatine isn't by far.
However, when Palpatine took possession of someone - the sheer power drove him mad. Didn't happen to Kyp. According to the Ancient Sith, only Anakin Solo possessed the power to house Palpatine's spirit. His raw energies in the Force were killing him.
He could turn lightsabers to dust with a wave of his hand, destroy fleets, possessed all of the Dark Side knowledge ever possessed, was described by an omniscient narrator as "a dark nexus of the Force" and "the Dark Side's most powerful agent."
Controlled? I don't think so. Influenced to a small degree with battle meditation? Yes. It's a massively different feat.
You and Grand Admiral Thrawn disagree. Considerably.
Exar obliterated many Massassi Warriors as well as Nadd's spirit. I'd say that equals taking down a batallion of stormtroopers.
In a single Force maneuver?
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Proof? Where's Kyp done anything to come close to Luke?
Ok, he moved some black holes...let's see him achieve a state of oneness with the Force, root himself in the Heart of the Force, hide planets with the Force, bring down starships with the force, emerald lightning Slayers...No, forcewise, Kyp is pretty damn far
You bet he moved some black holes. He was stated to have done it more easily then Luke did too. That outweighs (excuse the pun) most everything else Luke has done.
Lumiya was terrified of him, even with her apprentices to challenge him.
Lumiya was as much a machine as Vader. Unlike Vader, however, she didn't have the raw force power to still be a force to be reckoned with afterwards. Who was this natable apprentice? What was she supposed to do against over half a dozen Royal Guards assuming she ever got to him to begin with? She didn't have much choice.
Glentract is right. As of NJO, only Luke and Kyp can destroy Sidious.
I never said Kyp could destroy Sidious. Here's what I said: As of NJO, the only Jedi besides Luke who could possibly defeat Sidious (IMO the weaker of the pair) is Kyp. Even then it's iffy.
Kyp isn't half of what Luke is. Evidence? Kyp was unable to defeat a dying Slayer. Luke kills seven simultaneously.
Kyp fought four of them. Luke wasn't fighting all seven at the same time. I remember four coming after him to begin with. Yes, he killed 7 over the course of the battle, not at one time though. Also, Luke beat them later in TUF, after the Jedi had been informed of all of the Slayer's new weapons. I doubt Luke would have done as well if he didn't get info from Kyp first. I'm not saying Kyp is as strong as Luke in lightsaber skills or force powers, just that in force powers he rivals him and in lightsaber skills he could give him a challenge to be sure.
Omfg for the last time. When on earth is Vodo even on par with Yoda? Perhaps you should quit listening so much to the former members of this forum that always argued this. I suppose Vodo was the grandmaster too huh? And AGAIN, a force spirit is NOT what Exar Kun was. Exar Kun was in some form, what Sidious was. A form of energy, just not as complete, because the ritual was apparently iffy or he didn't learn it correctly, but Kun wasn't a DEAD FORCE SPIRIT.
Last I checked, Kyp failed to beat ONE Slayer dying of Alpha Red on Caluula.
And more fanboy BS from Glentract:
What's destruction force? HM! Power maybe?
He controlled...three force storms fine until cut off from the Force. Try again.
Vodo definitely on Yoda's level? Prove up, wouldya? When'd Vodo do....anything on Yoda's level? Oh, right...he got got beaten twice and used a stick. Silly me. Try Again!
Exar pwned Luke as a spirit? You mean...double teaming a surprised Luke holding back against Kyp Durron while double teaming him while Luke was weak from combatting the dark Side on Yavin 4? Oh, right. That.
Nope, sorry, last I checked: Thrawn tril confirmed Palpatine was practically controlling the fleet as it fell to pieces when he died.
Palpatine is confirmed as growing stronger after ROTJ.
Ah. How could it not relate to personal power? Palpatine wasn't Emperor of the galaxy at this time. He was merely Darth Sidious, master manipulator and puppet master. And, it simply doesn't mean that he's just destructive. It says that he is "[B]the most destructive living force in the galaxy."
Jango Fett is destructive. Anakin Skywalker is destructive. Palpatine? Far more so. [/b]
1. It doesn't matter that Palpatine was Emperor of the galaxy at the time. Let me quote LS on this: And Betrayal states Vergere knew Palpatine would become the greatest living force of destruction the galaxy would see. Lumiya was terrified of him, even with her apprentices to challenge him. (emphasis added by me).
2. What does the fact that he's living have to do with how destructive he is? All destructive beings have to be alive unless they are a force ghost. What proof do you have that it is referring to Palpatine's force powers?
That is true, but Sidious was only shown to be unable to control his Force Storm when he was confronted with an overwhelming mass of Force connection - three Skywalkers. And, even then, they could only perform such a thing temporarily.
What did Anakin do? He wouldn't become notably powerful for more then a decade. Leia was very weak as well. Luke wouldn't stand up to many powerful people at this point either. He lost to Exar's spirit after DE. During that year or so he presumable became much more powerful as he had a holocron that he got from Sidious to study from during that time. All three of the Skywalkers at this point would be defeated by Exar alone. As this paragraph is getting bulky, I'll show my reasoning in the next.
Raynar Thul had more raw force potential in DN then anyone else alive. He was insane though and untrained. If someone like Yoda had that kind of raw power he would be unstoppable.
Compare Raynar to Lomi Plo. She had only one planet full of Killiks to draw power from, yet she rivaled Raynar in power because of her better training. Raw power don't matter if you don't have the training to use it.
Until such a time when you prove that Exar can match the Force connection of three Skywalkers (three individuals with Anakin's raw connection to the Force), I don't see Exar doing anything but dying against a Force Storm.
He wouldn't be taking Palpatine with him.
See above. Those three Skywalkers were weak as of DE.
Really? Definately on Yoda's level? Link me to something that proves this, Glentract. Or are you assuming simply because he was the great Exar Kun's master?
On Yoda's level doesn't mean that he equals him. It means that he could give him a good fight, which I think you would agree to. If Vodo was so weak, why did Sidious bother keeping his holocron with him? He obviously had some special knowledge.
However, when Palpatine took possession of someone - the sheer power drove him mad. Didn't happen to Kyp. According to the Ancient Sith, only Anakin Solo possessed the power to house Palpatine's spirit. His raw energies in the Force were killing him.
1. Exar was a far older, and therefor weaker spirit then Palpatine.
2. Exar never fully possessed Kyp. He only partially did so.
3. Kyp was stated to have less force potential then Anakin, but only by a small bit. Seeing as Sidious didn't know about Kyp at the time it's entirely possible that Kyp is powerful enough to have not been driven mad by Sidious' power.
4.I've forgotten, who was it that Palpatine first possessed?
He could turn lightsabers to dust with a wave of his hand, destroy fleets, possessed [B]all of the Dark Side knowledge ever possessed, was described by an omniscient narrator as "a dark nexus of the Force" and "the Dark Side's most powerful agent." [/b]
1.Wow. He could destroy small metal tubes with a wave of his hand. That really equals controlling black holes. 🙄
2. Where did you get this idea that he possessed all of the knowledge on the darkside that ever existed?
3. Even if Sidious had all of the darkside knowledge ever, he could only have used a portion of it, as Exar said that he had gotten more then he could ever possibly use.
4. Quantify "nexus". I define nexus as a means of connection; tie; link. What do you think it is and can you prove that the author would use your definition over mine?
5. As the Darksides more powerful agent, is that ever, or living at that time? What was the context? What's you source?
You and Grand Admiral Thrawn disagree. Considerably.
Ah. So Thrawn was an expert on the force? Hardly. (I'm not claiming that I am either, btw 😛 ) Thrawn just knew that the battle records showed that the Imperials had fought better when Sidious was alive then after he had died. There is no reason to believe that he "controlled" all of them.
In a single Force maneuver?
I can't remember. It might have been. Even if it was not, he still took out a large part of a temple wall and killed many Massassi with one attack. Nadd might have been destroyed with that same attack as well.