DE Palpatine & Exar Kun vs. The New Jedi Order

Last I checked, Kyp failed to beat ONE Slayer dying of Alpha Red on Caluula.
And more fanboy BS from Glentract:

Can you prove that the Alpha Red had as of then had any affect on the Slayers fighting ability?

Can you please answer my reasons for why Luke did so much better against the Slayers? Luke knew what to expect.

And again, Kyp isn't as good as Luke in lightsaber skills, that's already been established. It's force powers that he rivals him in.

What's destruction force? HM! Power maybe?

How about giving the Clones the order to destory the Jedi Order? I'd say that extremely destructive and comes not from his own power.

He controlled...three force storms fine until cut off from the Force. Try again.

The Emperor also confessed that he was not able to completely control these storms after he triggered their onset.

Vodo definitely on Yoda's level? Prove up, wouldya? When'd Vodo do....anything on Yoda's level? Oh, right...he got got beaten twice and used a stick. Silly me. Try Again!

If Vodo was so weak, why did Sidious bother keeping his holocron with him? He obviously had some special knowledge.

Exar pwned Luke as a spirit? You mean...double teaming a surprised Luke holding back against Kyp Durron while double teaming him while Luke was weak from combatting the dark Side on Yavin 4? Oh, right. That.

Luke was stated as using all of his knowledge, yet he was overpowered. Kyp Durron had effectively no training at this point and woudn't have done much, if anything.

Nope, sorry, last I checked: Thrawn tril confirmed Palpatine was practically controlling the fleet as it fell to pieces when he died.

You should check again, as it doesn't say that he controlled the fleet.

Palpatine is confirmed as growing stronger after ROTJ.

Source?

And I'm done for the night. Later yall.

Gee, could a virus that, y'know, attacked their biology and KILLED them maybe have some effect? It took all of Malik Carr's power to even stand when he was infected. And when did Luke know what to expect? Noone knew about what the Slayers truly were. The fact remains: Luke killed multiple, elite, healthy slayers and thousands of Vong besides WITHOUT using the Force to push himself.
Kyp couldn't kill one dying Slayer.
And according to Lucas's own words, Luke's power is what, twice of everyone else's? When is it even hinted that Kyp rivals Luke except in Kyp's delusional mind?
When Kyp can walk on Lava, achieve oneness with the Unifying Force and resist the combined power of the Kilik colony...we'll talk

Gee, when Betrayal confirms it's his destructive power as, y'know, a Sith. Nice try, but fanboy BS gets you nowhere, Glen.

And that was....oh, how many years before DE? Right. In the Handbook it states he said he could control them and we see him controlling them fine. Logic, much?

Sidious had BODO Baas's holocron. Not Vodo's. Luke found Vodo's. Sidious had Bodo's and many, many more besides. He selected that one for Luke and Leia, your point? Oh, is that your point gone?

Except Kyp had been powered by Kun and Yavin's Dark Side, Luke was weakened, trying not to hurt Kyp and double teamed. Yep, he was owned, by a technique he'd never seen before. And last I saw, Luke's padawans trapped Kun and drove him to desperation.

Try again. The Imperial Fleet became lost, totally disoriented and hopeless...the instant Palpatine died.

Source: Dark Empire? The Visual Guide? Confirm Palpatine grows in strength. DE Handbook confirms he grew, too...in fact, it calls his power in the darkside 'limitless'

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Ah. How could it not relate to personal power? Palpatine wasn't Emperor of the galaxy at this time. He was merely Darth Sidious, master manipulator and puppet master. And, it simply doesn't mean that he's just destructive. It says that he is "the most destructive living force in the galaxy."

2. What does the fact that he's living have to do with how destructive he is? All destructive beings have to be alive unless they are a force ghost. What proof do you have that it is referring to Palpatine's force powers?

What did Anakin do? He wouldn't become notably powerful for more then a decade. Leia was very weak as well. Luke wouldn't stand up to many powerful people at this point either. He lost to Exar's spirit after DE. During that year or so he presumable became much more powerful as he had a holocron that he got from Sidious to study from during that time. All three of the Skywalkers at this point would be defeated by Exar alone. As this paragraph is getting bulky, I'll show my reasoning in the next.

Until such a time when you prove that Exar can match the Force connection of three Skywalkers (three individuals with Anakin's raw connection to the Force), I don't see Exar doing anything but dying against a Force Storm.

3. Even [b]if Sidious had all of the darkside knowledge ever, he could only have used a portion of it, as Exar said that he had gotten more then he could ever possibly use.

Dark Empire sourcebook, among others:
"He had mastered all known, previously unknown and forgotten and creates new techniques at his pleasure."
"He had mastered the great power-the Force, the White Current, etc etc- in all its guises, all its aspects and all its traditions. etc etc tc, lot more there..."

And it's amusing how Exar kinda died hours later after gathering that stuff...Exar had a whopping six months to Palpatine's...80 years? 90?

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Dark Empire sourcebook, among others:
"He had mastered all known, previously unknown and forgotten and creates new techniques at his pleasure."
"He had mastered the great power-the Force, the White Current, etc etc- in all its guises, all its aspects and all its traditions. etc etc tc, lot more there..."

You're sure the first quote doesn't say "it is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure"?

And it's amusing how Exar kinda died hours later after gathering that stuff...Exar had a whopping six months to Palpatine's...80 years? 90?

What does that have to do with the fact Exar Kun had gained "more knowledge and wealth than he could ever hope to use"? Then again, you might not be addressing his last point, but whatever. I'll try to clarify it because I'm bored.

I believe Glentract is just saying it's unlikely that Sidious could master "every technique" given the fact with only what Exar Kun had gather he still wasn't able to use all of it, even if he had lived until dying via old age (which I'd submit would be around 90, maybe even more) as it does say "ever hope to use".

You bring up the fact he died shortly after and he only had six months compared to Sidious' 90 (even though as far as I recall it's really unknown), but what does that have to do with Glentract's original point? It only makes one think if Sidious would be able to become the most powerful Force in the galaxy, one of the most powerful Sith Lords. Ever. Be able to kill Ancient Jedi masters with a swipe of his hand, and so on in only six months.

Doesn't really matter to me, just trying to clarify his point. Though, I don't even know if that's what he's saying, just seems that way. But anyways, what about the stuff housed on Malachor V that was destroyed? In the temples on Yavin stored with Kun? Doubt Sidious just waltzed in there, and Kun let him take it.

Different quotes, Advent. The 'it is believed' was written before the rest of the EU came into focus. And like I said, there're other quotes.

And no, Exar Kun was DLOTS for six months. That's it. And when did he use a scrap of the knowledge he gained? He didn't. Doesn't matter what he gathered, doesn't matter what

And the stuff on Malachor was the only source in the universe? The spirits of the Sith Lords didn't know it? Or their holocrons?

Oh, and Kun couldn't stop the Jedi waltzing in on Yavin and killing his Terentateks any more than he could stop Ikrit from destroying his creations and relaxing on Yavin for centuries. How would he stop Palpatine? Palpatine would likely just laugh at him and stroll out. by ROTS, Palp had excavated Yavin and Complete Locations shows that.

And so Exar Kun didn't have Palpatine's learning capabilities, so? It's lovely what he could or couldn't use. Of course, Palpatine's a bit different

I'd like to know more about Malachor V, where did it originate from, how long has the sith presence been there, when did it start, etc. Because it seems like a more important sith stronghold than even Korriban.

I doubt its even a more important sith stronghold than Ziost, let alone Korriban.

apparently it was important enough because it almost killed Revan, converted him and Malak to the dark side, gave Kreia the force drain knowledge, and created Nihilus. Malachor V seems to be doing a lot more than Korriban did.

What did some of that was the little mass slaughter at Malachor.
Ziost and Koriban were the Sith capitals

The thing is Korriban was their home world and capitol. Ziost had also once been the capitol. Malachor V seemed to be just a random sith stronghold of no real importance. I'd say Malachor V was the less important.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
apparently it was important enough because it almost killed Revan, converted him and Malak to the dark side, gave Kreia the force drain knowledge, and created Nihilus. Malachor V seems to be doing a lot more than Korriban did.

Sure, Malachor V was really strong with the dark side but that has nothing to do with importance. In terms of importance, it was seemingly just a random sith stronghold, nothing more.

That could've been the same regardless of whether Revan landed on Korriban, Ziost, or Malachor. Same as if Kreia went to another world. And the Wound in the Force thing created Ni

Korriban turned Exar Kun to the Darkside, gave Palpatine a lot of his power, is the highest concentration of dark side power in the galaxy and houses the spirits of all the Dark Lords.

There's really no proof that it was more important than Rhelg or Khar Delba, I doubt more so than Korriban or Ziost.

1. It doesn't matter that Palpatine was Emperor of the galaxy at the time. Let me quote LS on this: And Betrayal states Vergere knew Palpatine would become the greatest living force of destruction the galaxy would see. Lumiya was terrified of him, even with her apprentices to challenge him. (emphasis added by me).

Then let me make it clear. Pay attention to my quote, not his. I provided the exact quote.

Palpatine wasn't the dictator of a galaxy-spanning empire with the most powerful starfleet ever amassed at the time that this quote was made. He was simply manipulating Count Dooku, at the time, and Vergere still considered him "the greatest living force of destruction in the galaxy." She was his student - it refers to personal power.

If you disagree, then tell me what it does refer to.

2. What does the fact that he's living have to do with how destructive he is? All destructive beings have to be alive unless they are a force ghost. What proof do you have that it is referring to Palpatine's force powers?

You're not paying attention.

Vergere learned from Sidious before the Clone Wars began. She realized that he was the most destructive force in the galaxy when he was still alive. I don't know where you got that I was referring to his ghost (don't believe I said that it was).

She was saying that Palpatine was the most destructive living force in the galaxy - and that is why she attempted to kill him.

What did Anakin do? He wouldn't become notably powerful for more then a decade. Leia was very weak as well. Luke wouldn't stand up to many powerful people at this point either.

Jesus, Glentract. Force connection doesn't equate to current level of skill. Anakin Skywalker possessed the greatest Force connection of his time. He had a more raw command of it than anyone - Yoda and Sidious included. But he couldn't hope to take either of them in a Force fight. They knew more techniques and were more skilled due to experience.

Luke was very powerful as of Dark Empire. Taking down AT-AT's with merely a lightsaber; creating illusions so lifelike that he fooled his own sister; moving faster than the eye could see; learning from Sidious.

He lost to Exar's spirit after DE. During that year or so he presumable became much more powerful as he had a holocron that he got from Sidious to study from during that time. All three of the Skywalkers at this point would be defeated by Exar alone. As this paragraph is getting bulky, I'll show my reasoning in the next.

Yup. And in Survivor's Quest (which is set a decade after Dark Empire) he and Mara have a hell of a time taking down a single droideka. Next, I suppose, you're going to tell me that DE Sidious would have the same problem.

The point is, you're gonna have some inconsistencies. Especially with a character who has possessed the same longevity as Luke.

Raynar Thul had more raw force potential in DN then anyone else alive. He was insane though and untrained. If someone like Yoda had that kind of raw power he would be unstoppable.

Compare Raynar to Lomi Plo. She had only one planet full of Killiks to draw power from, yet she rivaled Raynar in power because of her better training. Raw power don't matter if you don't have the training to use it.

Yes, but in sheer power, Raynar was superior. His connection was better. His potential was better.

See above. Those three Skywalkers were weak as of DE.

See above, too. And pay more attention.]

On Yoda's level doesn't mean that he equals him. It means that he could give him a good fight, which I think you would agree to. If Vodo was so weak, why did Sidious bother keeping his holocron with him? He obviously had some special knowledge.

Rofl. Palpatine's holocron wasn't of Vodo. Bodo Baas. Not Vodo Siosk-Baas.

As for this, no, I don't think Vodo could give Yoda a good fight. Now, it is obvious, Glentract, that you're pulling this out of your ass. I echo Darth Sexy's comments. You thought he was a Grandmaster too - like Yoda. You were wrong there.

Personally, I'm thinking that you believe this simply because he trained Exar Kun (Darth Plagueis must be able to own anyone - then - because he really did have a special power).

See the gaping holes in your logic?

No. I think Vodo would get curbstomped by Yoda, Sidious, Windu, or Dooku.

1. Exar was a far older, and therefor weaker spirit then Palpatine.

Yeah. But, then again, Ragnos (the uber-god of Star Wars) was only a thousand years older than Kun - and he was extremely weak as a spirit. Kun was five thousand years old and did uber things. Ragnos? Six thousand and the weakest spirit I've ever seen.

2. Exar never fully possessed Kyp. He only partially did so.

Because he couldn't do it completely.

3. Kyp was stated to have less force potential then Anakin, but only by a small bit. Seeing as Sidious didn't know about Kyp at the time it's entirely possible that Kyp is powerful enough to have not been driven mad by Sidious' power.

Where was this stated?

4.I've forgotten, who was it that Palpatine first possessed?

Jeng Droga, I believe. One of his Emperor's Hands.

1.Wow. He could destroy small metal tubes with a wave of his hand. That really equals controlling black holes. 🙄

Yep. So, he can destroy Kun's weapons. 🙂

2. Where did you get this idea that he possessed all of the knowledge on the darkside that ever existed?

He knew every technique invented before-hand, and invented his own. He > Kun in Dark Side knowledge.

3. Even if Sidious had all of the darkside knowledge ever, he could only have used a portion of it, as Exar said that he had gotten more then he could ever possibly use.

Exar =/= Palpatine.

4. Quantify "nexus". I define nexus as a means of connection; tie; link. What do you think it is and can you prove that the author would use your definition over mine?

I define it as the "core or center".

5. As the Darksides more powerful agent, is that ever, or living at that time? What was the context? What's you source?

Dark Empire.

Ah. So Thrawn was an expert on the force? Hardly. (I'm not claiming that I am either, btw 😛 ) Thrawn just knew that the battle records showed that the Imperials had fought better when Sidious was alive then after he had died. There is no reason to believe that he "controlled" all of them.

Why is there no reason? Because Kun couldn't do it? And that obviously means that Sidious couldn't do it... if I may echo your words, Glentract, hardly.

The Imperials were dominating that fight, and when Palpatine died - the Imperials lost. Would you like me to get the quote that Thrawn provided?

"…you must have wondered how a few dozen Rebel ships could possibly rout an Imperial force that outgunned it by at least ten to one… The Rebels did indeed fight better, but not because of any special abilities or training. They fought better than the fleet because the Emperor was dead… you must have noticed it. The sudden loss of coordination between crew members and ships; the loss of efficiency and discipline. The loss, in short, of that elusive quality we call fighting spirit… You had no real fighting spirit of your own anymore—none of you in the Imperial fleet did. It was the Emperor's will that drove you; the Emperor's mind that provided you with strength and resolve and efficiency. You were as dependent on that presence as if you were all borg-implanted into a combat computer. "

I can't remember. It might have been. Even if it was not, he still took out a large part of a temple wall and killed many Massassi with one attack. Nadd might have been destroyed with that same attack as well.

Find out, please.

Oh, many Massassi? Proof it was more than three, thanks

Can we please stop comparing Kun's "Ghost" to Ragnos' or all others? I have provided a logical argument how Kun is less than a ghost and more of an undead spirit. We've seen Nadd force push Vodo as a spirit, from across the galaxy, we've seen Ragnos mark Kun and Qel Droma. Kun is NOT a spirit. He used Sadow's technique to strip himself of his flesh, so I don't see how you compare apples and oranges.