Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
2. The Lords of Chaos slink back from the fight they picked with The Lords of Order when Darkseid yells for them to be quiet.
Because it snapped them back to the task at hand, which was finding out what was going on. It was potentially a matter of great importance to them and bigger than their petty squabble.
Also notice, once they've defeated the Para-Demons, Darkseid breifly emtombes them both, and leaves them "weakened" and "wounded" with a mere gesture. It was obvious he was much more powerful.
In any event, this is irrelevent given that it was retconned into being Desaad that they fought. In fact, that backs up the case further. Two half-powered Fates were struggling against Desaad in Darkseid's form
If he was much more powerful he would not have done as ineffectively against her by himself as he did. Darkseid resorts to bringing in the entire planet of Apokalips to help him. A half-powered Fate handling Darkseid like that was why it was retconned to begin with I'm sure. It made Darkseid look bad.
For another comparison, Dr. Fate was virtually useless against The Kilg%re, but Darkseid nearly destroyed it with "anti-energy" blasts.
Not much of a comparison as Dr.Fate is ambushed before ever physically making a move against Kilg%re. And I don't know what you're talking about with Darkseid since I don't see where Darkseid even fights Kilg%re anywhere in the book much less nearly destroys him with anything.
And ss far as comparisons go, even members of Darkseid's own Elite say point blank that Dr.Fate's power is greater than Darkseid's.
I'm pretty sure this never happened. Mr. Miracle with the Alpha Force asked SHAZAM to remove his Godhood, but that's it.
I don't have the issue anymore but from memory Shazam went to New Genesis and was granted godhood. He was skipping in excitement beside Highfather saying it was nothing his own power had ever felt like. This is when Shazam starts wearing the New Genesian pants and leaves the Batsons on their own. He wanted to stay on New Genesis some more because he was in awe of being around gods.
Anywho, I think it's clear that the members of The Quintessence are roughly equal in power.
Based on what?
Originally posted by Khem-Adam
Because it snapped them back to the task at hand, which was finding out what was going on. It was potentially a matter of great importance to them and bigger than their petty squabble.
They didn't even know why they were summoned, and I doubt they consider Darkseid's summons greater than their eternal war. Either way, that's a VERY generous way of interpretting it.
If he was much more powerful he would not have done as ineffectively against her by himself as he did. Darkseid resorts to bringing in the entire planet of Apokalips to help him. A half-powered Fate handling Darkseid like that was why it was retconned to begin with I'm sure. It made Darkseid look bad.
1. She dodged one of his blasts, then landed two which staggered him a bit. She got by on her speed and the fact she was fighting as hard as she ever has. As Eric said when she dodged the one attack DS fired, "he should have had her." It was akin to a Spidey/Firelord or Rockey/Drago performance. Also, Darkseid owned Eric before this.
2. This "half of the planet" was nothing but random Para-Demons. That furthers the case that they were dwarfed by Darkseid in power. They were nearly killed by Para-Demons, for Pete's sake.
3. Once Darkseid has her measure, he faces her and Eric, and as I said, leaves them "weak and wounded" with a nonchalant hand wave which briefly emtombes them. They also admitted they could NEVER win a straight fight. I know he preferred using his minions (whom he dwarfs in power, although maybe not since this was Desaad), but they still basically said they had zero chance of taking him out.
Not only did they look less powerful, but they weren't even facing Darkseid. They were facing Desaad:
http://img506.imageshack.us/my.php?image=retcon9ha.jpg
... Who, as you can see, is quite scared of the real Darkseid.
Not much of a comparison as Dr.Fate is ambushed before ever physically making a move against Kilg%re.
That's not true at all. He tried to attack and got owned:
http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jlaannual09134sx5jh.jpg
http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jlaannual09152wr9av.jpg
http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jlaannual09291ca1pe.jpg
And I don't know what you're talking about with Darkseid since I don't see where Darkseid even fights Kilg%re anywhere in the book much less nearly destroys him with anything.
We just see the blasts coming at him, but Highfather's text makes it clear that it's Darkseid firing the blasts:
http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jlaannual09308jz4ob.jpg
http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jlaannual09317nv8jj.jpg
http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jlaannual09340lv2de.jpg
And ss far as comparisons go, even members of Darkseid's own Elite say point blank that Dr.Fate's power is greater than Darkseid's.
And another member of his "Elite" thought a GL's power was greater. Here's how that turned out:
http://img467.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ssosv004121rd8mw.jpg
http://img467.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ssosv004174cl2df.jpg
His minions routinely underestimate the vastness of his power. But how often do the Lords of Chaos underestimate the Lords of Order? Afterall, when they claimed they don't fear Darkseid, the Lord of Chaos yelled "You are liars! You fear darkness most of all ..." etc.
I don't have the issue anymore but from memory Shazam went to New Genesis and was granted godhood. He was skipping in excitement beside Highfather saying it was nothing his own power had ever felt like. This is when Shazam starts wearing the New Genesian pants and leaves the Batsons on their own. He wanted to stay on New Genesis some more because he was in awe of being around gods.
Don't think so. He got Mr. Miracle's God Powers which were given to him. I've heard that he had no powers himself before that. Highfather's easily blocked a blast from God-Power Mr. Miracle before. In fact, Mr. Miracle's God-Power was just an inherited portion of Highfather's own Alpha-Force.
Based on what?
The respect they treat each other with and the fact that their formation is based on watching over the POWER of the DCU. They were once called "The Quintessence of all cosmic power" IIRC.
But again, we have a direct comparison in Emperor Joker, where Darkseid resisted EJ's control longer than any member of The Quintessence did.
Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
This "half of the planet" was nothing but random Para-Demons. That furthers the case that they were dwarfed by Darkseid in power. They were nearly killed by Para-Demons, for Pete's sake.
This being after the lady Fate, at only half power, stood up to Darkseid by herself and made him resort to his armies. You keep saying how it wasn't really Darkseid, but you seem to be missing the point of why Darkseid's performance was retconned to begin with.
That's not true at all. He tried to attack and got owned:
The key word being "tried". They were ambushed and Fate snatched from his body before getting off a single attack to defend Hal or himself. Though your scans curiously don't show how they effectively battled Kilg%re after being sucked in. You claim Dr.Fate was virtually useless when that's not true. Then somehow you compare that to Darkseid who never even fights Kilg%re. Show where Kilg%ore attacks Darkseid anywhere in the story then a comparison can be made.
We just see the blasts coming at him, but Highfather's text makes it clear that it's Darkseid firing the blasts:
It does not. I'm looking right at it. Whatever machine or ship is firing the blasts is firing them from the sky. Show the very next page after your scan. Darkseid is on the ground while the blasts are being fired. Darkseid himself doesn't fire anything nor does he ever face Kilg%re.
His minions routinely underestimate the vastness of his power. But how often do the Lords of Chaos underestimate the Lords of Order?
All the time. A Lord of Chaos is always going to say something negative about a Lord of Order whether it's true or not. That's a given.
Afterall, when they claimed they don't fear Darkseid, the Lord of Chaos yelled "You are liars! You fear darkness most of all ..." etc.
So something negative a Lord of Chaos says about a Lord of Order that is clearly meant as a taunt is to be taken as impartial truth. But Darkseid's own agent who knows Darkseid's power and has no reason to lie or be biased is to be ignored when he says outright that Dr.Fate is even more powerful than Darkseid? I'll just disgree with that logic.
Don't think so. He got Mr. Miracle's God Powers which were given to him. I've heard that he had no powers himself before that. Highfather's easily blocked a blast from God-Power Mr. Miracle before. In fact, Mr. Miracle's God-Power was just an inherited portion of Highfather's own Alpha-Force.
Don't see how that changes anything I said. It sounds like you're arguing the case for me if you're saying this god power Shazam was so impressed by was well below that of Highfather's.
The respect they treat each other with and the fact that their formation is based on watching over the POWER of the DCU. They were once called "The Quintessence of all cosmic power" IIRC.
Respect and affiliation has nothing to do with power. If that were the case Superman and Batman would be neck and neck. Shazam appeared regularly in Captain Marvel's book and he was just a human wizard and not much more. A respectably powerful mage but not anything like a high god.
Originally posted by Khem-Adam
This being after the lady Fate, at only half power, stood up to Darkseid by herself and made him resort to his armies.
1. She didn't "stand up to him" so much as dodged them then landed a couple of good blasts. It's not like they matched power.
2. She didn't "make" him do anything. He was already letting his "armies" (if you really wanna call a bunch of Para-Demons an "army"😉 handle Eric before she ever got there.
You keep saying how it wasn't really Darkseid, but you seem to be missing the point of why Darkseid's performance was retconned to begin with.
Actually, the retcon seems to be more focused on the out of character portrayal. His reaction to "love" probably has a good deal to do with it.
The key word being "tried". They were ambushed and Fate snatched from his body before getting off a single attack to defend Hal or himself. Though your scans curiously don't show how they effectively battled Kilg%re after being sucked in. You claim Dr.Fate was virtually useless when that's not true.
Fate: "The power of the Lords of Order will bind any cybnetic -- No!"
How can you POSSIBLY claim he was ambushed when he was stopped in the middle of trying to attack it? As for his "effective battling", that only occures AFTER Darkseid already had The Kilg&re on the ropes.
Then somehow you compare that to Darkseid who never even fights Kilg%re. Show where Kilg%ore attacks Darkseid anywhere in the story then a comparison can be made.
... Um, we see blasts coming at The Kilg%re, we see Highfather talk about Darkseid, then we see everything in ruins.
Fate's "power of the Lords of Order" failed to "bind" The Kilg&re. Darkseid's "anti-energy" blasts did that quite well. To top it off, we have Highfather going on about how Darkseid's power is unparalleled in all creation -- in a comic Dr. Fate appears in.
It does not. I'm looking right at it. Whatever machine or ship is firing the blasts is firing them from the sky. Show the very next page after your scan. Darkseid is on the ground while the blasts are being fired. Darkseid himself doesn't fire anything nor does he ever face Kilg%re.
I don't see any ""machines" or "ships" in the comics. Additionally, while the blasts are fired downward relative to Highfather and The JLA, we don't know what level of ground Darkseid's at compared to them.
Assuming they were fired from above, that doesn't mean anything either, given that the very panel where Darkseid is shown standing is the same panel when the blasts stop.
However, a few pages later, Darkseid is informed there is one place The Kilg%re's finding refuge in that he missed -- Metron's chair. He says it's "the final" obstacle and is clearly about to use a hand-blast until Highfather steps in.
But hey, if you want to say that a random Apokolips weapon is what proved more powerful than Fate, that's fine by me too. Afterall, Darkseid has recharged the entire planet when it was out of energy and in one second generated energy equal to what the entire planet uses in a year. Many of the weapons of Apokolips are directly run by his personal power. As we saw in the same issue, in fact, he has utter control over and can randomly create Apokolips "tech" out of thin air.
Claiming it was Apokolips tech really just furthers the impact of how far it implies DS is above Fate per that story, IMO.
All the time. A Lord of Chaos is always going to say something negative about a Lord of Order whether it's true or not. That's a given.
One would wonder, though, why the Lords of Chaos didn't object as the Lords of Order did when it was stated they feared him.
So something negative a Lord of Chaos says about a Lord of Order that is clearly meant as a taunt is to be taken as impartial truth. But Darkseid's own agent who knows Darkseid's power and has no reason to lie or be biased is to be ignored when he says outright that Dr.Fate is even more powerful than Darkseid? I'll just disgree with that logic.
1. Lords of Chaos "know" the power of Lords of Order far more intimately that Darkseid's "elite" know his own -- as I showcased with the Darkseid/Mantis scans
2. When it's from a comic that strongly implies the Lords of Chaos themselves fear Darkseid, yeah, I take their word a bit more seriously than I take the word of a minion of Apokolips. The fact that they underestimate the extent of Darkseid's power is a running theme. Kalibak once claimed it would take a power greater than Darkseid to beat him. Virmun Vundabar once beleived he could kill Darkseid by blasting him from behind with a gun. Mr. Miracle, who spent years on Apokolips, thought that "no living thing" could survive a shot from a Master Blaster -- and was surprised when Darkseid took it to no effect. Neither of these is absolute proof, but I certainly take the words of the Lords of Chaos more seriously, given the context.
Don't see how that changes anything I said. It sounds like you're arguing the case for me if you're saying this god power Shazam was so impressed by was well below that of Highfather's.Respect and affiliation has nothing to do with power. If that were the case Superman and Batman would be neck and neck. Shazam appeared regularly in Captain Marvel's book and he was just a human wizard and not much more. A respectably powerful mage but not anything like a high god.
I thouht you were arguing SHAZAM was more powerful than Darkseid?
Here's something from Genesis. SHAZAM is part of a group attacking Godwave Ares. They are completely dismissed except for Takion:
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/48/genesis4pg07dj7.jpg
http://img494.imageshack.us/my.php?image=heroes6aa.jpg
http://img494.imageshack.us/my.php?image=heroes11ci.jpg
This is before he got the God-Power of Mr. Miracle. I could see him as roughly equal to Darkseid after that.
As for The Quintessence, the thing is that they're born out of watching over the balance of power in the DCU. They cover different sides of "cosmic" power. Generally, such groups only function when all the members are roughly on the same level. It's not like The JLA, which is a big, diverse group of superheroes.
Originally posted by Jimmy-ChanFate: "The power of the Lords of Order will bind any cybnetic -- No!"
How can you POSSIBLY claim he was ambushed when he was stopped in the middle of trying to attack it?
The answer is in the question. He was taken before he could defend himself. They have no idea what they're facing and believe Kilg%re to be just a computer. But Kilg%re isn't just a computer but a sentient being with mysterious energy. He siezes Fate's mind before can react to what's really going on. Kilg%re did the same to Highfather and New Genesis.
Highfather after he'd recovered from his ambush:"If it hadn't been for the wierd alien energy this creatures uses, he'd never have gotten me..."
... Um, we see blasts coming at The Kilg%re, we see Highfather talk about Darkseid, then we see everything in ruins.
What we DON'T see is Kilg%re attack Darkseid or Darkseid face Kilg5re in any part of the story. Darkseid attacks Supertown, not Kilg%re. He does not even know what/who Kilg%re is and is simply attacking his enemies. If you're going to try to use this as a Fate/Darkseid comparison you have to compare like circumstances. You're saying Darkseid must be more powerful because he wasn't ambushed too. That doesn't mean anything since he never meets Kilg%re in the first place. It's a phantom comparison.
Fate's "power of the Lords of Order" failed to "bind" The Kilg&re. Darkseid's "anti-energy" blasts did that quite well.
An meaningless observation as the beams Apokalips fired from the sky safely away from Kilg%re actually hit him/it. Fate didn't. So how well or poor they don't mean anything against Fate one way or the other.
To top it off, we have Highfather going on about how Darkseid's power is unparalleled in all creation -- in a comic Dr. Fate appears in.
Apokalips' power. It's not just Darkseid that invades, it's Apokalips. And I'd grant that the entire force of the planet of Apokalips is greater than Dr.Fate.
I don't see any ""machines" or "ships" in the comics.
You need to look again. There are machines and Apokaliptan army everywhere. For that matter a machine cannon is used to neutralize Guy Gardiner.
1. Lords of Chaos "know" the power of Lords of Order far more intimately that Darkseid's "elite" know his own -- as I showcased with the Darkseid/Mantis scans
Since we're taking statements at face value, in your scan Mantis says he wasn't in his right mind due to the affects of the power. Glorious Godfrey on the other hand was.
I thouht you were arguing SHAZAM was more powerful than Darkseid?
I'm arguing that he's less powerful.
Originally posted by Khem-Adam
The answer is in the question. He was taken before he could defend himself. They have no idea what they're facing and believe Kilg%re to be just a computer. But Kilg%re isn't just a computer but a sentient being with mysterious energy. He siezes Fate's mind before can react to what's really going on. Kilg%re did the same to Highfather and New Genesis.
The point, though, was that Darkseid's energy was something it could not "seize" or in any way counter as it did the others.
What we DON'T see is Kilg%re attack Darkseid or Darkseid face Kilg5re in any part of the story. Darkseid attacks Supertown, not Kilg%re.
His attack leaves Kilg%re, who was manifesting through Supertown, on the defensive in fear for its life.
He does not even know what/who Kilg%re is and is simply attacking his enemies. If you're going to try to use this as a Fate/Darkseid comparison you have to compare like circumstances. You're saying Darkseid must be more powerful because he wasn't ambushed too. That doesn't mean anything since he never meets Kilg%re in the first place. It's a phantom comparison.
He meets The Kilg%re in as much as Fate did. As The Kilg%re had no true body as such, everyone fought manifestations of it. Both Darkseid and Fate knew they were in a fight, but neither knew what they were facing. I don't see how Darkseid was in a better position.
An meaningless observation as the beams Apokalips fired from the sky safely away from Kilg%re actually hit him/it. Fate didn't. So how well or poor they don't mean anything against Fate one way or the other.
Um, yes it does. For one, just because Fate didn't visibly fire a blast doesn't mean he wasn't attacking on some level. Secondly, the fact is that it was able to incapacitate Fate with its own energy, but couldn't deal with the anti-energies. That implies the anti-energy is on a level capable of putting Fate down.
Apokalips' power. It's not just Darkseid that invades, it's Apokalips. And I'd grant that the entire force of the planet of Apokalips is greater than Dr.Fate.
Thanks for ignoring the fact that the only evidence we saw of how the attack went down was Darkseid about to fire a hand-blast. Or the fact that Darkseid has been shown as > Apokolips. He's recharged the entire planet once its energy was sucked dry. Conceding Fate is < energies of Apokolips is the same as conceding he's < Darkseid.
You need to look again. There are machines and Apokaliptan army everywhere. For that matter a machine cannon is used to neutralize Guy Gardiner.
Those are machines carried by his troops on the ground, not the phantom "sky ships" you speak of.
Since we're taking statements at face value, in your scan Mantis says he wasn't in his right mind due to the affects of the power. Glorious Godfrey on the other hand was.
He said that, quite obviously, to gain Darkseid's forgiveness. After which he turned the power back on him. He was revelling in the GL power only as much so as Godfrey was revelling in the power of Fate's helmet. His mind wasn't being mucked with on any level. He was simply powered crazed. I imagine if Godfrey saw Darkseid appear right behind him as he made such a claim, his reaction would be similar.
I'm arguing that he's less powerful.
Then I wonder why you're in this thread. Just to defend Lords of Order? Mind you, SHAZAM did much better against the hostless Spectre than Fate did.
Originally posted by Jimmy-ChanHe meets The Kilg%re in as much as Fate did. As The Kilg%re had no true body as such, everyone fought manifestations of it. Both Darkseid and Fate knew they were in a fight, but neither knew what they were facing. I don't see how Darkseid was in a better position.
If you can't see how Fate being unexpectedly assaulted by Kilg%re face-to-face and Darkseid's army firing at Kilg%re safely from the sky and Darkseid never once meeting Kilg%re are different then there's really no point in further trying to illustrate it.
Thanks for ignoring the fact that the only evidence we saw of how the attack went down was Darkseid about to fire a hand-blast. Or the fact that Darkseid has been shown as > Apokolips. He's recharged the entire planet once its energy was sucked dry. Conceding Fate is < energies of Apokolips is the same as conceding he's < Darkseid.
That's all very impressive but I didn't say anything about "the energies of Apokalips", I just said Apokalips. Apokalips includes Darkseid. Apokalips is where Darkseid lives. And as a military force I believe it to be greater than Dr.Fate, yes.
Those are machines carried by his troops on the ground, not the phantom "sky ships" you speak of.
I said "whatever machine or ship". We don't know specifically what all was there. But we do know it was an army and machinery.
He said that, quite obviously, to gain Darkseid's forgiveness.
I see. So whenever the words hurt Darkseid's case they're to be taken in context, but when Darkseid blusters about something every word is to be taken at face value and as literal truth. Hard to argue that.
Then I wonder why you're in this thread.
For the complimentary tortilla chips. 😉
Just to defend Lords of Order? Then I wonder why you're in this thread. Just to defend Lords of Order? Mind you, SHAZAM did much better against the hostless Spectre than Fate did.
Shazam's not really in the running against Dr.Fate in terms of power so I won't go into that one. But the only reason Lords came up was because someone thought Shazam was one.
Originally posted by Khem-Adam
If you can't see how Fate being unexpectedly assaulted by Kilg%re face-to-face and Darkseid's army firing at Kilg%re safely from the sky and Darkseid never once meeting Kilg%re are different then there's really no point in further trying to illustrate it.
1. I'm pretty sure Fate expected Kilg%re to attack, given what he was doing. It would've been foolish to assume he would not be attacked.
2. Already covered the "army" thing. Thing is, the Kilg%re had time to analyze Darkseid's energies and attempt to adapt to them, yet was unable to.
That's all very impressive but I didn't say anything about "the energies of Apokalips", I just said Apokalips. Apokalips includes Darkseid. Apokalips is where Darkseid lives. And as a military force I believe it to be greater than Dr.Fate, yes.
In this case, the energies of Apokolips (per your theory) are what looked more effective than Fate. Although the fact that Fates (even at half power) can be threatened to the point of imminent death by Para-Demons or be hurt and weakened from Desaad in his Darkseid form (Orion nonchalantly dismissed Desaad in that form, forcing him to revert back) doesn't exactly speak too well for them either.
I said "whatever machine or ship". We don't know specifically what all was there. But we do know it was an army and machinery.
No we don't. The only time we saw a blast about to be shot at The Kilg%re, it was from Darkseid's own hand. I'd say that's the best bet as to how the rest of the blasts were fired.
I see. So whenever the words hurt Darkseid's case they're to be taken in context, but when Darkseid blusters about something every word is to be taken at face value and as literal truth. Hard to argue that.
No, it's the context.
The Lords of Chaos did not take the time to disagree with Darkseid's accusation that they fear him. They even stated The Lords of Order were lying by claiming they didn't fear him ... Even though Darkseid never stated the Lords of Order fear him. The fact that he asked the Lords of Order why they came implies to me that he wasn't talking out of his ass by saying the Lords of Chaos fear him. This is backed up by them slinking back as he yelled. I get the impression that The Lords of Chaos truly did fear Darkseid, but the Lords of Order didn't. However, being that the Lords of Chaos are roughly their equals and claimed they fear Darkseid, this speaks pretty well of the case for Darkseid being at least as powerful as a prominent Lord.
As for Godfrey, he was fanatical and power obsessed. He made a claim that several other Apokoliptians have made when stumbling upon a great power source. I take Godfrey's statement and the Lords of Chaos' claim that the Lords of Order fear him to have roughly equal weight.
Now, Darkseid's own statement that the Lords of Chaos fear him is far more solid than either of the above, IMO. This is due to the fact that a) they didn't object, b) Darkseid seemed to know they feared him but wasn't sure about the Lords of Order, which makes it seem like he was being objective (if he was merely bragging he would've said that BOTH of them feared him), and c) they slinked back when he yelled.
For the complimentary tortilla chips. 😉
You'll have to bring salsa if you want to stay. 🙂
Shazam's not really in the running against Dr.Fate in terms of power so I won't go into that one. But the only reason Lords came up was because someone thought Shazam was one.
1. SHAZAM was presented as a Lord of Order in Day of Veangance ... Yes, I know, it contradicts continuity. However, it seems to be his "current" origin. Maybe Trials of SHAZAM will clarify this.
2. SHAZAM actually looks better than Fate through two comparisons. For one, he easily handled Superman, who was portrayed as more powerful than Fate in the Weird mini-series. Likewise, he did much better against the hostless Spectre ... Although Nabu did better than him. Which goes back to my point about Nabu and the Fates being extremely inconsistent. In general, I'd place Fate above SHAZAM, but not by that much.
