Originally posted by zephiel7
Malak is stronger with the force, but I can see them both equal with the saber.Either a tie or Malak.
You're basing your conclusion on what exactly?
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I don't know, Malak was sexy when he had a jaw. And his muscle shirts are a killer.
Um, no. He was still bald.
You're basing your conclusion on what exactly?
It was stated in KOTOR that Malak defeated Kavar (the top duelist in the Jedi council) in a lightsaber duel. Kavar was the strongest duelist of a Jedi Order that fought more force wielders. If the duelists receive more practice (fighting dark Jedi), then they should of course be better at wielding a lightsaber.
If you think though that the people of PT are 'more talented,' it is highly unprobable that EVERYONE in that order is more talented than EVERYONE in the KOTOR order. Since Kavar was the top dog of an (on average) stronger order of duelists, then that speaks a lot for Malak's victory.
I would rank this equivalent to how Anakin 'defeated' (which I still remain somewhat skeptical) Dooku.
With resepect to force powers, Malak has demonstrated the ability to lift, choke, shock, and lightsaber throw all at once against two fully trained Jedi Knights (most likely powerful if they were sent in to try and assassinate Malak). He was able to also control the power of the Star Forge, a relic several thousand years old and filled with the dark side. He also had access to a larger body of knowledge to study from at Malachor 5. Obviously his knowledge in the force had a substantial boost by virtue of this fact.
Anakin on the otherhand obviously did not receive as much knowledge in the force by ROTS.
Originally posted by zephiel7
It was stated in KOTOR that Malak defeated Kavar (the top duelist in the Jedi council) in a lightsaber duel. Kavar was the strongest duelist of a Jedi Order that fought [b]more force wielders. If the duelists receive more practice (fighting dark Jedi), then they should of course be better at wielding a lightsaber.If you think though that the people of PT are 'more talented,' it is highly unprobable that EVERYONE in that order is more talented than EVERYONE in the KOTOR order. Since Kavar was the top dog of an (on average) stronger order of duelists, then that speaks a lot for Malak's victory.
I would rank this equivalent to how Anakin 'defeated' (which I still remain somewhat skeptical) Dooku.
With resepect to force powers, Malak has demonstrated the ability to lift, choke, shock, and lightsaber throw all at once against two fully trained Jedi Knights (most likely powerful if they were sent in to try and assassinate Malak). He was able to also control the power of the Star Forge, a relic several thousand years old and filled with the dark side. He also had access to a larger body of knowledge to study from at Malachor 5. Obviously his knowledge in the force had a substantial boost by virtue of this fact.
Anakin on the otherhand obviously did not receive as much knowledge in the force by ROTS. [/B]
The lady has a point, my apprentice. closedeyes
Originally posted by zephiel7
It was stated in KOTOR that Malak defeated Kavar (the top duelist in the Jedi council) in a lightsaber duel.
1.) Proof Kavar was even near Anakin's level? Or Dooku's for that matter.
2.) What were the circumstances of the fight? Such as: how did Malak win, was it a basic beat down or a TPM Kenobi (or a hard fought duel that could've gone either way), etc.
Really, though, okay, he beat Kavar - the best duelist the Order had to offer - but just how much better is he than everyone else? How good is he on the grand scale? Compared to people like Dooku, Mace, Yoda, etc.
I would rank this equivalent to how Anakin 'defeated' (which I still remain somewhat skeptical) Dooku.
There's no reason to act skeptical about his beating Dooku's ass. Anakin is a better saber duelist than Dooku, plain and simple. If you want to go into this debate, I've amounted more factual evidence, and logical reasonings on that subject alone than anyone.
In any case, are you saying that Kavar = Dooku? If so, I ask for solid proof (of course, you have none - I already know that). Even if you take the premise the Jedi of old were better duelists in whole, it means absolutely jack shit in terms of other "top dogs".
There's absolutely shit to suggest Malak's defeat of Kavar is on par with Anakin killing Dooku. So, if you want to say that, prove up. As I said already, being the "top dog" of a stronger era doesn't mean you're better than another "top dog". Otherwise, Kavar is on par with Yoda and Sidious.
Originally posted by zephiel7
It was stated in KOTOR that Malak defeated Kavar (the top duelist in the Jedi council) in a lightsaber duel. Kavar was the strongest duelist of a Jedi Order that fought [b]more force wielders. If the duelists receive more practice (fighting dark Jedi), then they should of course be better at wielding a lightsaber.If you think though that the people of PT are 'more talented,' it is highly unprobable that EVERYONE in that order is more talented than EVERYONE in the KOTOR order. Since Kavar was the top dog of an (on average) stronger order of duelists, then that speaks a lot for Malak's victory.
I would rank this equivalent to how Anakin 'defeated' (which I still remain somewhat skeptical) Dooku.
With resepect to force powers, Malak has demonstrated the ability to lift, choke, shock, and lightsaber throw all at once against two fully trained Jedi Knights (most likely powerful if they were sent in to try and assassinate Malak). He was able to also control the power of the Star Forge, a relic several thousand years old and filled with the dark side. He also had access to a larger body of knowledge to study from at Malachor 5. Obviously his knowledge in the force had a substantial boost by virtue of this fact.
Anakin on the otherhand obviously did not receive as much knowledge in the force by ROTS. [/B]
More Force Wielders? What? Right, one Jedi Civil War accounts more for an Order that has continued the traditions of a THOUSAND YEAR LONG WAR with Force users.
Oh, and how exactly did Malak win? Wasn't Kavar just 'thought dead?' Could he have escaped rather than see the fight through to the end?
well still... malak a brute force'swing so hard Ragnos would've been proud'
anakin was almost obi-wans equal (and unless you didn't notice their movements are nearly idnetical ...same style) how malak has more darkside KNOWLEDGE not power so if anakin can hold out he can beat him but if the brute power of malak's djem so proves to much anakin will start to lose feeling in his arms...
2.) What were the circumstances of the fight? Such as: how did Malak win, was it a basic beat down or a TPM Kenobi (or a hard fought duel that could've gone either way), etc.
Vandaar and the others (including Vrook) stated that Malak was too much for the order. Whether this was implying Malak's military forces or actually Malak himself (with respect to the order of Jedi masters), remains unknown, but it most likely refers to both. Remind yourself that Vandaar did not actually enter the the Star Forge to help Revan kill Malak (which would make sense if he, the leader of the Jedi order, was stronger than Malak.)
It could not have been a TPM Kenobi. First of all it would not make sense, given that in the context there was nothing that could have made Malak go as beserk as Kenobi did.) It makes most sense, really, to assume that it was a straight out smackdown.
In any case, are you saying that Kavar = Dooku?
I never stated that Kavar is greater than Dooku because (yes!) I agree there is not enough proof to say so, however he is the top duelist of a more martial order.
Some of the combat that the masters of KOTOR have seen:
-The Jedi civil war that erupted due to Exar Kun and Ulic Qel Droma's (apparently charismatic...) speech in front of the Senate. Apprentice turned against master, Jolee details this as he had to slay his own wife.
-The dark Jedi that Revan sent (from his multiple academies) as he waged a straight out war against the Jedi Order and Republic.
-Same as above but with Malak this time.
-The Sith that Sion and Nihilus sent to assassinate the Jedi masters.
While this is insufficient proof to suggest that Kavar is greater than Dooku, it would be unfair and illogical to assume the opposite (that Dooku is greater than Kavar)
Right now, I do not think there is enough information to base an accurate decision on who would win in a straight out lightsaber duel.
Everyone here has a point, but the basic conclusion comes down to Anakin defeating Malak in saber combat.
Malak defeating Anakin in Force Powers.
(This is debatable), but overall, I believe Anakin overwhelms Malak only due to his saber skills, he might cut off Malak's hand to prevent him from doing Drain, Lightning, or Choke.
Originally posted by zephiel7
It could not have been a TPM Kenobi. First of all it would not make sense, given that in the context there was nothing that could have made Malak go as beserk as Kenobi did.) It makes most sense, really, to assume that it was a straight out smackdown.
A "TPM Kenobi" is a win via lucky circumstances. For example, say Malak did get his jaw lopped off by Kavar (as we don't know), and because of that Malak was almost beaten. As luck would have it, Kavar dropped his defenses, and Malak pulled an Obi-Wan. Basically, a "TPM Kenobi" is a victory even though you were defeated, and only due to your opponent's arrogance, etc. Or just a luck win in all.
And no, it does not make most sense to assume it was a "beat down", because you have no evidence other than it just supports your side. If you do, cough it up.
If there's no proof, then no one should be saying "it makes sense, most likely, etc". For one thing, it's practically borderline fallacy saying this and that without any evidence (you don't even have enough for logical deducing this), for two - there's absolutely zilch to suggest Malak beat his ass. On the contrary actually, if you claim Kavar is the best duelist out of the entire Jedi Order, in which you deem a stronger era in whole, it would seem he put up a good fight. Of course, I don't know what happened, but neither do you - the difference is you're stating it like its fact or logically established, the point is: it's not.
But to the point, no proof, so don't make the claim. I asked for proof. I received none, ergo you have no argument.
I never stated that Kavar is greater than Dooku because (yes!) I agree there is not enough proof to say so, however he is the top duelist of a more martial order.
And? As I said, that accounts for absolutely jack shit. He could be the "top dog" of a stronger era and still be leagues weaker than even the fifth strongest of a weaker era. Your point holds no water.
-The Jedi civil war that erupted due to Exar Kun and Ulic Qel Droma's (apparently charismatic...) speech in front of the Senate. Apprentice turned against master, Jolee details this as he had to slay his own wife.
How's this even matter? And who gives a shit? What does this have to do with anything?
-The dark Jedi that Revan sent (from his multiple academies) as he waged a straight out war against the Jedi Order and Republic.
Again, this is completely irrelevant to the point. So what if the Jedi of old saw more action, it doesn't mean their best competitor is better than one from another era. Especially considering what we know of Yoda, Mace, Dooku, and Sidious.
As well, it doesn't mean that the Jedi of old are even necessarily better on average. Not that it even matters.
-Same as above but with Malak this time.
-The Sith that Sion and Nihilus sent to assassinate the Jedi masters.
Again, what does this have to do with what we're talking about? As I said, strongest of a stronger era in whole can still be weaker than the strongest of a weak era. Otherwise, Kavar > Yoda, or whoever else > Yoda. This is not the case, therefore you have no case.
While this is insufficient proof to suggest that Kavar is greater than Dooku, it would be unfair and illogical to assume the opposite (that Dooku is greater than Kavar)
So, we should auto. assume Kavar's on his level then? Or we should auto. assume Anakin's beating Dooku is equivalent to Malak beating Kavar? Despite the obvious fact we know Anakin won outright, we don't know how Malak won. Your statement was purely ridiculous. Once someone actually questioned it, you know submit that you have insufficient evidence to support your claims ("equivalent to Anakin beating Dooku" implies Kavar = Dooku, or even greater - hell you can't even support it was anything like that).
It's unfair for you to even state Kavar's any good on the grand scale. It's unfair for you to say Malak beating Kavar is as good as Anakin beating Dooku. The fact of the matter is that you don't know shit about how Malak even won. You can't prove Kavar's power. So, what are you trying to do? If you have no argument, why argue?
If it's unknown, then leave it be. If you can't prove it, f*ck it. Simple as that. It's not evidence.
Right now, I do not think there is enough information to base an accurate decision on who would win in a straight out lightsaber duel.
Oh, but there's enough information to state Malak "beating" Kavar, in which the circumstances were unknown completely, is equivalent to Anakin beating one of the most powerful Jedi in history in a straight up fight.
Originally posted by zephiel7
Vandaar and the others (including Vrook) stated that Malak was too much for the order. Whether this was implying Malak's military forces or actually Malak himself (with respect to the order of Jedi masters), remains unknown, but it most likely refers to both. Remind yourself that Vandaar did not actually enter the the Star Forge to help Revan kill Malak (which would make sense if he, the leader of the Jedi order, was stronger than Malak.)It could not have been a TPM Kenobi. First of all it would not make sense, given that in the context there was nothing that could have made Malak go as beserk as Kenobi did.) It makes most sense, really, to assume that it was a straight out smackdown.
I never stated that Kavar is greater than Dooku because (yes!) I agree there is not enough proof to say so, [b]however
he is the top duelist of a more martial order.Some of the combat that the masters of KOTOR have seen:
-The Jedi civil war that erupted due to Exar Kun and Ulic Qel Droma's (apparently charismatic...) speech in front of the Senate. Apprentice turned against master, Jolee details this as he had to slay his own wife.
-The dark Jedi that Revan sent (from his multiple academies) as he waged a straight out war against the Jedi Order and Republic.
-Same as above but with Malak this time.
-The Sith that Sion and Nihilus sent to assassinate the Jedi masters.While this is insufficient proof to suggest that Kavar is greater than Dooku, it would be unfair and illogical to assume the opposite (that Dooku is greater than Kavar)
Right now, I do not think there is enough information to base an accurate decision on who would win in a straight out lightsaber duel. [/B]
Can we stop this mmore martial order stuff? The PT order faced three large wars in rapid succession.
There was little actual combat in the Great Sith War.
The Jedi Civil War was large, but bigger than the Clone Wars?
Assassinations constitute a war? Can we count the Purge?
It's unfair for you to even state Kavar's any good on the grand scale. It's unfair for you to say Malak beating Kavar is as good as Anakin beating Dooku. ?
Kavar was the best damn duelist of his order, why exactly are you coming to hasty conclusions that Anakin beating Dooku on the "grand scale" is really better than Malak outdueling Kavar? Both sides (including me and you) lack proof to establish which side is stronger with respect to the lightsaber. It is an unknown and I say, with all politeness, leave it at that. I/you or anyone else on this forum can't come to a conclusion based on the facts that are given just yet.
And no, it does not make most sense to assume it was a "beat down", because you have no evidence other than it just supports your side. If you do, cough it up.
As I mentioned before:
Vandaar and the others (including Vrook) stated that Malak was too much for the order. Whether this was implying Malak's military forces or actually Malak himself (with respect to the order of Jedi masters), remains unknown, but it most likely refers to both. Remind yourself that Vandaar did not actually enter the the Star Forge to help Revan kill Malak (which would not make sense if he, the leader of the Jedi order, was stronger than Malak.)
We don't have explicit proof detailing Malak's "smack down of Kavar", but we can draw inferences based on what Vandaar and Canderous stated.
Originally posted by zephiel7
It is unfair for you to assume the contrary, that Anakin beating Dooku is better when there is not enough proof to establish this fact.
How exactly do you figure that? To mega-quote myself:
Originally posted by Advent
1.) He was #2 behind Revan so he's automatically as good as Dooku? And you talk about terrible arguments, lol. Prove any of those Jedi were on Dooku's level. Dooku is called by narration to be exactly "one of the most respected and powerful Jedi [b]in the Order's twenty-five-thousand-year history", and is stated to be "an even greater Sith" (by narration, and Yoda's dialogue indicates this as well); albeit, it's true he's not "number 2" of the era, but he's what? Like the fifth best in an era where the Jedi Order is at its prime? Above the likes of Obi-Wan, Grievous, Sora, Maul, etc. A little more impressive, I'd say.A lightsaber prodigy? How's that? And of course, merely being a "prodigy" doesn't mean your better than another prodigious being.
2.) Yes, why is the question. Okay, you put him in league with Dooku for...what reason exactly? Numero Dos behind Revan, and he's a "prodigy"? Great reasonings. Dooku is a prodigy, too - surprise, surprise.
Let's see, his displays of Force mastery suggests his power is tremendous (and what did Malak ever do with the Force that was impressive, btw? Choking a guard? Lol. Dooku choked out Komari Vosa.). There's the fact ROTS Obi-Wan isn't even a match for Dooku's Force power, he was owned at literally the flick of the wrist:
"He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall."
Also note that he did this while fending off Anakin. He also did tool Asajj Ventress, who we know is pretty powerful. Not the strongest, but still. And he also - with one finger - brought Ventress down to her knees:
"Her face went pale. Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain. Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor. "
So, we have a flick of the wrist, a tap of the finger, patting motion. "Strong in the Force this one is", eh? From the AOTC novelization, when he puts Anakin out of commission for a time:
"Dooku's hand shot out toward the charging Jedi, sending forth a Force push as solid as any stone wall, and a burst of blue Force lightning. With a wave of his hand, Dooku sent Anakin flying across the room, to crash into a distant wall, where he slumped down, dazed.
He was able to completely revitalize himself using just the Force (ROTS novel), suggesting he doesn't need some dumbass Jedi captives to do it, lol. We know he's obviously a proficient Force lightning user by his displays in AOTC, and other various things. He was able to own Sora Bulq, and knock him out with Force lightning:
As seen in the background is Tholme, who himself is no weakling was battling with Dooku 2-on-1, and even so Dooku still beat Sora, and right after spared Tholme, only of course, after owning him with his saber as well:
Really though, Dooku has a vast amount of training, and experience over Malak. Roughly 80+ years of it. Since we know he was trained as a youngling, he has about 70+ years experience as a Jedi, and 13 years as a Sith Lord. Now, we know experience definitely isn't everything, however, to deny it gives an advantage is purely ridiculous. For example, throughout those years - he is stated to know "Every weakness of Ataru" (his duel against Yoda obviously didn't end in a victory, however, Yoda's pure skill is probably better than anything).
And within those years, has mastered Makashi - the lightsaber to lightsaber form - to it's highest degree. Admittedly, forms are necessity for victory, however, it's clue that Dooku's lightsaber skills are no joke. And one thing that matters not is Dooku's age:
"Physically, the Count's age was rarely a handicap. Deft as he had become with the Force-unimaginably more subtle than the boy who had watched water-skeeters in the Jedi gardens all those years ago-he wore his eighty-three standard years better than most humans half his age. He was still in superb physical shape, senses keen, health undiminished by even the memory of a cold."
So, just to put that out there because I've heard a lot of people say stuff like "Dude! Character X is so much younger!".
He has also bested Mace Windu in personal combat before, now Windu wasn't at his peak, however, he still beat him (it's kind of irrelevant to even bring up, but just to add to the fact. He's also described as "Dooku, consummate planner, consummate duelist." Consummate meaning perfect or to the highest degree. Clearly Dooku's skill with a lightsaber is amazing. Even Yoda comments on his skills:
"Yoda stirred again with his stick. "Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?" He nodded. "Best of all, Dooku would be!"
Calling him the strongest student, and one that has learned the most. We also know Dooku is more powerful than Grievous, who has slain numerous Jedi Masters with ease (Council member as well), Asajj Ventress, and so on.
What's Malak got on his resume?
[/B]
Now, obviously from this we can deduce Dooku - at the very least - is on par with Malak. And I say "very least" because I'm obviously inclined to believe Dooku is better. So, obviously by arguing Dooku > Malak, or even for the sake of it, would not only put Dooku above Kavar, but it'd also put Anakin above Malak in saber dueling.
Kavar was the best damn duelist of his order, why exactly are you coming to hasty conclusions that Anakin beating Dooku on the "grand scale" is really better than Malak outdueling Kavar?
Because I hold Dooku above, or for the sake of piss ants, equal to Malak. And "hasty conclusions"? Ahem, sorry. The thing is, if you're just going to state unknowns, then I might as well say Thon > Everyone in the Galaxy, because we don't know how powerful the Ancient Sith he apparently beat was. Or might as well say when character x killed so and so Dark Jedi or Jedi, we don't know how powerful he/she was, ergo "THATS MI ARGUMENT!!!//ONELEVENT!!".
Seriouslah'.
Both sides (including me and you) lack proof to establish which side is stronger with respect to the lightsaber.
Incorrect. I'm establishing Dooku himself in as powerful, if not more powerful than Malak, so in terms of me proving who's better - Dooku or Kavar, "it matters not".
It is an unknown and I say, with all politeness, leave it at that. I/you or anyone else on this forum can't come to a conclusion based on the facts that are given just yet.
Then what purpose did it even serve when you brought it up? Why do you consider it as good if you don't know? Riddle me this, fiddler: why'd you say it, and when someone brings up it - you say "it's unknown, I have no proof"?
Something seems like you just like making your argument look good. Fortunately for us, we can call out and question as we please.
We don't have explicit proof detailing Malak's "smack down of Kavar", but we can draw inferences based on what Vandaar and Canderous stated.
No, you really can't. All you said that Malak was "too much" for the Jedi Order. And "military forces" mean jack shit in one on one power, and I don't understand what you mean by "respect" - unless you mean too renegade. In either case, you have nothing to deduce from that gives hint Malak beat Kavar's ass. So, as I just said, no proof - no argument.
And what, exactly, does Vandar have to do with anything if Kavar is a better duelist than Vandar? As well, perhaps he didn't even need himself to go in. Much like Yoda did not enter the Invisible Hand, Vandar might've felt Revan was more than a match (and he was, just like Anakin was enough to defeat Dooku), and also why would Vandar help Revan if Revan was already stronger than Vandar himself? Also, who cares?
So, I pose the question: what the hell does this have to do with anything? Where's Vandar's power again? I don't even see what the hell you're trying to prove.
