Originally posted by Jen'ari
Maul.
*waits for JollyJim to start posting average feats from ROTJ Luke from SWtimeline.*
Or you could just post excerpts from the ROTJ novelization which kind of makes it clear Luke is nearly as powerful as Vader. Even if you accept the premise Vader was "holding back" (which doesn't seem he would be from the novel and explains why), Luke's still powerful.
Yes, yes - I know he's Luke "Louisville Slugger" Skywalker, but still he'd give Maul a good fight either way. Just to post from the novelization, in which I'm not making an actual case for Luke, just showing what it says:
"The gladiators battled fiercely, sparks flying from the clash of their radiant weapons, but it was soon evident that the advantage was all Luke's. And he was pressing it."
Obviously from this we can tell even if Darth Grenadier wasn't fighting "for his life" so to say, he was still fighting as it says "fiercely", which in this context I'd take it as intensely. He wasn't toying with Luke, or just letting him get an advantage.
"His anger was layered, now - he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness."
This part if I remember correctly, is when Luke turns off his saber after kicking Vader down the flight of stairs. And clearly after what I've put in bold it's saying that Vader was serious.
"This accusation really made Vader angry. He could tolerate much from the insolent child, but this was insufferable. He must teach this boy a lesson he would never forget, or die learning."
Indicating again just for the sake of it that Vader was willing to kill Luke, and he wasn't just fighting half assed.
"It was in his hands, now, he knew it was: he could take Vader. Take his blade, take his life. Take his place at the Emperor's side. Yes, even that. Luke didn't bury the thought, this time; he gloried in it."
This could be construed as the narrator voicing what Luke thought indirectly, of course. However, the first excerpt I showed indicates this, indeed, seems to be correct.
"Blow upon blow, Luke forced Vader to retreat - back, onto the bridge that crossed the vast, seemingly bottomless shaft to the power core. Each stroke of Luke's saber pummeled Vader, like accusations, like screams, like shards of hate. The Dark Lord was driven to his knees. He raised his blade to block yet another onslaught - and Luke slashed Vader's right hand off at the wrist."
Now coming from what we know, if Luke was so insignificant on the grand scale at the time of ROTJ, I doubt just getting pissed and rushing Vader would actually force him to fall back, force him to block constantly and with apparent trouble, and so on. And we note that Vader definitely didn't try to let Luke to do that, he wasn't giving up space just because Luke was his son. He was trying to block, but to no avail.
Obviously their duel in ROTJ has a vast difference from what happened in ESB. And it seems kind of "iffy" to assume Luke got so much more powerful that he's able to take down Vader now, especially when you consider once Vader stopped toying with him in ESB, he sliced his hand off. But, Vader does comment numerous times on Luke's apparent skill, such as his speed and the fact that "Vader watched Luke. His boy was powerful, stronger than he'd imagined".
Just putting that out there for people who say ROTJ Luke sucks (I used to think that, and still do kind of, but hey). I mean, the novelization may be completely wrong, however, the last part I gave is almost exactly written how it is in the script, so I wouldn't count the novel out on the subject.
In any case, I really don't care who would win. Luke can give a tough fight, and so can Maul.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
THe only reason people think Luke sucks is because of his terrible fighting style. Who cares about ir really? It's not like Luke had time to learn specfic forms, so he picked up what he could. Does that make him any less powerful than he was supposed to be? Hell no.
Well, I partly disagree with that. If Luke had been taught a specific form, like Makshi or dare i say Vaapad then he would be a hell of a lot better at the time of ROTJ. However he just had to improvise, diminishing his skill.
I believe this thread was used before. Anyway, ROTJ Luke put a helluva fight against Vader. Vader is more powerful than Count Dooku. But Vader could have been holding back against Luke since Luke is his son and he wanted to join the Dark Side. But Vader acknowledges Luke's power. I would say Luke would tie with Maul or Maul might somehow win due to his experience and skill.
If you go by the movies then Maul cause he was amazing while Luke was only perhaps avg. If you go by EU then Maul probably still wins cause look at how he pwnd all of Black Sun at once and then look at Luke in SOTE only destroying a small portion of Blackn Sun with help and having about as much if not more trouble than had. And ROTJ Luke ain't that much stronger than SOTE Luke.
But Luke held back too, kicked Vader down the stairs pretty easily. And the novel describes the fight as..(from what I remember) "unlike the fight in the cloud city early, this was a fight between equals". They were both very close in power, and they were both fighting.....
And the guard could have killed him. I guess Maul completed it thanks to that, and it was the guards personality, but still. He didn't have quite the skill enough to get away without problem....