TPM Darth Maul VS RotJ Luke Skywalker

Originally posted by Jen'ari
The movies are a higher form of canon than the books, ergo I can place my interpretation of the movies over the books. This isn't going against canon policy, I can do it. Luke was terrible in the movies. So were Vader and Old Ben. They were slow.

See! This guy knows what he's talking about! Luke, Vader, Old Ben, and Mace were all slow! If we just ignore all EU about the characters, then we can make the ones we want to suck be horrible in our own minds! Mace is a really slow fighter, and, his fastest running, is a slow trot (when he ran to attack Jango)! He would be owned by Zett (a small padawan), who can at least move his saber at a decent speed like when the clones attacked him.

hahahaha

Originally posted by Advent
Incorrect. You can not place your personal interpretation above a canonical interpretation of the movie. Clearly I do not see "[b]G-Canon: This is defined by the movies, and Jen'ari's biased/tainted/simple interpretation". Jenny, you are not a canon source. You can not base an argument off purely what you see in the movies, because:

1.) Interpretations differ. For example, Rampant Ox would undoubtedly say Dooku > Anakin or whoever if we allowed his interpretations of the movie to go. With EU material, we see this is not the case. If I say Luke was very good, and the best saber duelist I've ever seen. Am I right? According to you, I am because it's my interpretation. According to you, I could say Sidious was leagues above Mace in saber combat, I could say Grievous sucks, I could say TPM Kenobi is a saber god, and better than Qui-Gon.

Of course, if this was a movie debate forum - I could do all that, however, this is not a pure movie versus forum. It includes EU, ergo we're going to include EU material. EU Material > Your interpretations. Quit being such a twit, you're completely wrong.

2.) No one cares what you "interpret" things as frankly. Because you're trumped by actual canon material.

And plus, these little "interpretations" can go either way, purely because - as I've already said - they differ. I may view things one way, you may another way. Who's right in matters pertaining to "delicate" subjects? Ah, yeah. I think whichever side the canon material that is called a "novelization", is right. Obviously, you must think yourself to be high and mighty. Sorry, Jenny, you're not. [/B]

You miss my point. I'm not saying that my interpretation is definitely right. All I'm saying is that it is perfectly valid as I am basing it off of the movies, the highest form of canon.

'Who's right in matters pertaining to "delicate" subjects?'
It depends. It works the same way as logical deduction. Whoever can make a case which makes more sense and is more persuasive and logical is usually the one considered to be correct.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
See! This guy knows what he's talking about! Luke, Vader, Old Ben, and Mace were all slow! If we just ignore all EU about the characters, then we can make the ones we want to suck be horrible in our own minds! Mace is a really slow fighter, and, his fastest running, is a slow trot (when he ran to attack Jango)! He would be owned by Zett (a small padawan), who can at least move his saber at a decent speed like when the clones attacked him.

Not really. Mace fought fine.

Umm, no he didn't. Samuel Jackson and Ian McDiarmid were fighting. They are both kinda old and fight slow, if I just based my decisions on the movies, then Obi-Wan > Mace Windu.

Not in my opinion! By the way, my opinion is on the same level of canon as the movies, so, Mace sucks.

Originally posted by Jen'ari
You miss my point. I'm not saying that my interpretation is definitely right. All I'm saying is that it is perfectly valid as I am basing it off of the movies, the highest form of canon.

Except you are ignoring other canon material. If you didn't choose to ignore other facts, then your "interpretation" is trumped. In this case especially considering we include all EU that is canon for our versus arguments.

In terms of purely movie-wise, your opinion can be valid, however, we don't work that way. We are not purely a movie based versus forum. So deal with it. No one cares what you "interpret" because it's trumped by canon material that is far more valid than anything you have to say.

Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn what your "interpretations" are or how you *think* things should be. The fact of the matter is, novelizations are canon, and in terms of the SWVF, are far greater than simple minded interpretations. For you to even say that your little perceptions are greater is purely ridiculous. But of course, that's par when dealing with you. I've grown accustomed to it.

'Who's right in matters pertaining to "delicate" subjects?'
It depends. It works the same way as logical deduction. Whoever can make a case which makes more sense and is more persuasive and logical is usually the one considered to be correct.

Except even if one more case makes more sense, it doesn't mean it's right. As I said, we don't operate on a strictly movie basis. If we did, some people would be able to construe an argument that seemed practically sound, but once you take a look at the Expanded Universe - are completely wrong.

Keep in mind, I really could care less how "other forums" or "other people" do it or want to make it seem, because when we discuss how to debate/what is canon/what goes/etc., we deal with KMC. In this topic, it's EU included, and the Expanded Universe > Your opinion of the movie.

Advent:

'Except you are ignoring other canon material. If you didn't choose to ignore other facts, then your "interpretation" is trumped. In this case especially considering we include all EU that is canon for our versus arguments.'

I am only ignoring other secondary canon material because it contradicts what I interpret the movies to present. You seem to think that I am arguing against canon. This isn't the case. The movies are the highest form of canon, yet are open to much more interpretation than the books are. My interpretation of the movies = the movies (in my eyes) = highest form of canon. I don't see how you are not getting this, it's simple stuff. I can place my interpretation of the movies over any lower forms of canon - this is not going against canon policy. I'm not saying I'm definitely right, I'm just saying that you can't refute it by posting excerpts from lower forms of canon because I am within my rights to disregard those pieces of secondary canon because it contradicts what I perceive to be the highest from of canon.

'In terms of purely movie-wise, your opinion can be valid, however, we don't work that way. We are not purely a movie based versus forum. So deal with it. No one cares what you "interpret" because it's trumped by canon material that is far more valid than anything you have to say.'

However, the movies take priority. The thing you don't get is that the movies are visual representation which means that much is left to the interpretation of the audience (we don't get to hear what the characters are thinking for instance) which means that there is no definite route that certain aspects of the movie go by, therefor we have to make our own interpretation of the movies, and that in our eyes is the movies. It works the same way when people debate over assumptions (debating isn't always about facts, deduction and interpretation are completely valid).

'Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn what your "interpretations" are or how you *think* things should be. The fact of the matter is, novelizations are canon, and in terms of the SWVF, are far greater than simple minded interpretations. For you to even say that your little perceptions are greater is purely ridiculous. But of course, that's par when dealing with you. I've grown accustomed to it.'

Weren't you going to try and be a bit more civil? 😉

@JollyJim:

'Not in my opinion! By the way, my opinion is on the same level of canon as the movies, so, Mace sucks.'

You completely miss the point. I'm not placing my opinions over the opinions of others, or saying that what I think is definite. I'm just placing how I interpret the highest form of canon over secondary canon material. Also, not to be rude but I have completely disregarded your opinion ever since you claimed that Luke was a force god because he could lift C 3PO with the force. 😄

Originally posted by Jen'ari
Advent:

'Except you are ignoring other canon material. If you didn't choose to ignore other facts, then your "interpretation" is trumped. In this case especially considering we include all EU that is canon for our versus arguments.'

I am only ignoring other secondary canon material because it contradicts what I interpret the movies to present. You seem to think that I am arguing against canon. This isn't the case. The movies are the highest form of canon, yet are open to much more interpretation than the books are. My interpretation of the movies = the movies (in my eyes) = highest form of canon. I don't see how you are not getting this, it's simple stuff. I can place my interpretation of the movies over any lower forms of canon - this is not going against canon policy. I'm not saying I'm definitely right, I'm just saying that you can't refute it by posting excerpts from lower forms of canon because I am within my rights to disregard those pieces of secondary canon because it contradicts what I perceive to be the highest from of canon.

'In terms of purely movie-wise, your opinion can be valid, however, we don't work that way. We are not purely a movie based versus forum. So deal with it. No one cares what you "interpret" because it's trumped by canon material that is far more valid than anything you have to say.'

However, the movies take priority. The thing you don't get is that the movies are visual representation which means that much is left to the interpretation of the audience (we don't get to hear what the characters are thinking for instance) which means that there is no definite route that certain aspects of the movie go by, therefor we have to make our own interpretation of the movies, and that in our eyes is the movies. It works the same way when people debate over assumptions (debating isn't always about facts, deduction and interpretation are completely valid).

'Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn what your "interpretations" are or how you *think* things should be. The fact of the matter is, novelizations are canon, and in terms of the SWVF, are far greater than simple minded interpretations. For you to even say that your little perceptions are greater is purely ridiculous. But of course, that's par when dealing with you. I've grown accustomed to it.'

Weren't you going to try and be a bit more civil? 😉

@JollyJim:

'Not in my opinion! By the way, my opinion is on the same level of canon as the movies, so, Mace sucks.'

You completely miss the point. I'm not placing my opinions over the opinions of others, or saying that what I think is definite. I'm just placing how I interpret the highest form of canon over secondary canon material. Also, not to be rude but I have completely disregarded your opinion ever since you claimed that Luke was a force god because he could lift C 3PO with the force. 😄

I makes absolutely no difference if your opinion of events is based on a higher canon source or a lower one, ANY canon source trumps your opinion.

G-Canon> C-Canon> Peoples opinions.

It's more than just an opinion. It's how I perceive the highest form of canon to be. My 'opinion' is exactly what the highest form of canon (the movies) is to me.
It's pretty simple really. The movies can be interpreted through a number of different ways, it's not as factual as the books are. The thing is, nobody is telling you how to interpret many aspects of the movies which are open to interpretation. This means that we are within are right to make interpretations of what the movies are actually displaying, and to us, that interpretation = the movies. I'm not saying that my interpretation is definitely right, but until it is refuted by either common sense or evidence from the movies, it is perfectly valid.

Wow, great posts guys. You all put up great arguments.
Advent, of course rocking the friggin house. 😛

K, I've thought about it and I have just a few things to say.

Vader, by the time of RotJ was actually kind of rusty.
It had been two decades since he had fought any fully trained Jedi, with the exception of Obi-Wan.

One of the reasons Luke, a half-trained Jedi Knight to-be, managed to do defeat Vader was because Vader had grown just slightly unaccustomed to lightsaber dueling.

Also, Luke did learn a Form, two actually.

First, he learned the basics of FormI Shii-Cho from Obi-Wan whilst onboard the Millenium Falcon. Second, he learned Form V Djem So(Darth Vader's style) from Yoda while on Dagobah.
Luke, like his father, utilized a large well of emotion and physical strength to undermine and penetrate an opponent, not to mention a contemporary knowledge of kinetic force employed in combat.

These elements of swordsmanship could be seen used against Vader especially during their final, and climactic duel onboard the second Death Star.

Vader, like he had been on Mustafar some twenty years earlier, was held in the vice-like grip of an emotional complex.
He felt torn at his mind. At an impasse with his heart and mind telling him to go in two different directions. Also, he felt the presence of something of which he couldn’t quite recognize, deep within himself.

He felt Anakin Skywalker.

He knew he didn’t want to hurt Luke. He actually loved him.
But he also knew he had to turn him to the Dark Side.
He was on an all-out attack to destroy him. But little things, echoes, kept pulling him back.

Luke did manage to defeat a Vader, indeed intent on destroying him.
But, this Vader was the same one who had lost to Obi-Wan Kenobi some twenty years earlier on Mustufar. Really, only in due to unfocused strength and perception.

So, Luke defeated a Vader intent on killing him. But, a handi-capped Vader.

So clearly, Darth Vader wasn’t at his full while fighting Luke, at least mentally.
Luke did manage to defeat him though.

Now, for the moment of revelation.
Who would win this fight?

Darth Maul, of course.

Why?

Because Maul's skills were readily sharpened and already honed to a frightening degree.
Maul had already fought a good deal of formidable Jedi and was already very acustomed to lightsaber dueling.

Also, I've noticed some people label Maul's ability through the Force as weak because he could only use Telekinesis to a degree and whatnot.
Maul's true ability and talent within the Force lay in the area of Control.

Control is the discipline in which a Jedi or Sith cultivates and hone's the Force within their own body, strengthening their muscles and toning them to their finest degree. Included in this, is the ability to have an extreme muscle-nerve control, giving the practitioner a degree of control over all their muscles and even some of their involuntary ones.
This creates a suppleness of mind that increases the thought/control process over the body, allowing for an increased agility and dexterity.

In short, Maul learned to posses all of these different traits through his Juyo training.
In a fight with Luke, yes, Luke would put up a very decent fight.

But Maul would overwhelm him after a short time, and then proceed to destroy him, either with his lightsaber.
Or his hands, if need be.

In the fairest way to say this, Maul beats Luke 9 times out of 10.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
See! This guy knows what he's talking about! Luke, Vader, Old Ben, and Mace were all slow! If we just ignore all EU about the characters, then we can make the ones we want to suck be horrible in our own minds! Mace is a really slow fighter, and, his fastest running, is a slow trot (when he ran to attack Jango)! He would be owned by Zett (a small padawan), who can at least move his saber at a decent speed like when the clones attacked him.

Oh, um, forgot to mention somthing.
All-out speed insen't the end all be all to a fight.

The reason Mace trotted to Jango was because he employed a great deal of control to his stride, so as not to overextend himself.

Vader and Old Ben fought the way they did in ANH, because they both already knew each other's moves down to the finest degree.
They both had also mastered their styles down to the finest degree.
Slow, deliberate and controlled movements were used in a duel between two Masters who knew each other down to the depth's of their souls.
Blade taps were used instead of all-out swings, because both knew they only needed a tap to cause death or incapacitation.

Now, if you need more clarification on what I mean, it is a very interesting notion.
I suggest if any of you out there know any Martial Artists at all, you should show them the duel and ask their interpretation of it.
Likely, It'll be the same as what I said.

Try it. 😛

maul far more experience

Originally posted by Darth Sexiest
Oh, um, forgot to mention somthing.
All-out speed insen't the end all be all to a fight.

The reason Mace trotted to Jango was because he employed a great deal of control to his stride, so as not to overextend himself.

Vader and Old Ben fought the way they did in ANH, because they both already knew each other's moves down to the finest degree.
They both had also mastered their styles down to the finest degree.
Slow, deliberate and controlled movements were used in a duel between two Masters who knew each other down to the depth's of their souls.
Blade taps were used instead of all-out swings, because both knew they only needed a tap to cause death or incapacitation.

Now, if you need more clarification on what I mean, it is a very interesting notion.
I suggest if any of you out there know any Martial Artists at all, you should show them the duel and ask their interpretation of it.
Likely, It'll be the same as what I said.

Try it. 😛

Oh yeah, same thing with Mace VS Sidious. 😛

Originally posted by Advent
Or you could just post excerpts from the ROTJ novelization which kind of makes it clear Luke is nearly as powerful as Vader. Even if you accept the premise Vader was "holding back" (which doesn't seem he would be from the novel and explains why), Luke's still powerful.

Yes, yes - I know he's Luke "Louisville Slugger" Skywalker, but still he'd give Maul a good fight either way. Just to post from the novelization, in which I'm not making an actual case for Luke, just showing what it says:

"[b]The gladiators battled fiercely, sparks flying from the clash of their radiant weapons, but it was soon evident that the advantage was all Luke's. And he was pressing it."

Obviously from this we can tell even if Darth Grenadier wasn't fighting "for his life" so to say, he was still fighting as it says "fiercely", which in this context I'd take it as intensely. He wasn't toying with Luke, or just letting him get an advantage.

"His anger was layered, now - he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness."

This part if I remember correctly, is when Luke turns off his saber after kicking Vader down the flight of stairs. And clearly after what I've put in bold it's saying that Vader was serious.

"This accusation really made Vader angry. He could tolerate much from the insolent child, but this was insufferable. He must teach this boy a lesson he would never forget, or die learning."

Indicating again just for the sake of it that Vader was willing to kill Luke, and he wasn't just fighting half assed.

"It was in his hands, now, he knew it was: he could take Vader. Take his blade, take his life. Take his place at the Emperor's side. Yes, even that. Luke didn't bury the thought, this time; he gloried in it."

This could be construed as the narrator voicing what Luke thought indirectly, of course. However, the first excerpt I showed indicates this, indeed, seems to be correct.

"Blow upon blow, Luke forced Vader to retreat - back, onto the bridge that crossed the vast, seemingly bottomless shaft to the power core. Each stroke of Luke's saber pummeled Vader, like accusations, like screams, like shards of hate. The Dark Lord was driven to his knees. He raised his blade to block yet another onslaught - and Luke slashed Vader's right hand off at the wrist."

Now coming from what we know, if Luke was so insignificant on the grand scale at the time of ROTJ, I doubt just getting pissed and rushing Vader would actually force him to fall back, force him to block constantly and with apparent trouble, and so on. And we note that Vader definitely didn't try to let Luke to do that, he wasn't giving up space just because Luke was his son. He was trying to block, but to no avail.

Obviously their duel in ROTJ has a vast difference from what happened in ESB. And it seems kind of "iffy" to assume Luke got so much more powerful that he's able to take down Vader now, especially when you consider once Vader stopped toying with him in ESB, he sliced his hand off. But, Vader does comment numerous times on Luke's apparent skill, such as his speed and the fact that "Vader watched Luke. His boy was powerful, stronger than he'd imagined".

Just putting that out there for people who say ROTJ Luke sucks (I used to think that, and still do kind of, but hey). I mean, the novelization may be completely wrong, however, the last part I gave is almost exactly written how it is in the script, so I wouldn't count the novel out on the subject.

In any case, I really don't care who would win. Luke can give a tough fight, and so can Maul. [/B]

Btw, Great post, Advent. 😉

Originally posted by Jen'ari
It's more than just an opinion. It's how I perceive the highest form of canon to be. My 'opinion' is exactly what the highest form of canon (the movies) is to me.

Jenny, you don't get the point. Your opinion is just that - an opinion. If you place what you think happens above canon material, then you're being purely ridiculous. I can view the "highest form of canon" as say, Sidious is above Mace in lightsaber dueling by leagues, he was only acting. Or I could say Grievous sucks ass, Obi-Wan is weak, etc. Now, you're saying that what I view it as is on a higher plane than other source material that refers directly to the movie. This is not right, because if your views are trumped by canonical material (e.g. novels), then they are plainly invalid. A view, which can be tainted, biased, subjective, etc. has no value over other canon material that is not contradictory.

The movies are the highest form of canon, true; but how is your simple interpretation of them higher than canon interpretations? Which are basically just facts. Facts > Opinion. It does not matter how you "view" the movie, because as I said - we do not operate on a strictly movie basis, we include all Expanded Universe material. And the novelizations are actually canon, your "opinion" is not, ergo you can't be spewing this bullshit.

It's pretty simple really.

It is. But obviously you don't understand simple facts, and thus turn the situation into a Gordian knot, lol. This debate doesn't need to be complex, it's clear cut. Novelizations, a.k.a "canon interpretations" (rather 'fact', but for the sake of it) > Your interpretations.

The movies can be interpreted through a number of different ways, it's not as factual as the books are. The thing is, nobody is telling you how to interpret many aspects of the movies which are open to interpretation. This means that we are within are right to make interpretations of what the movies are actually displaying, and to us, that interpretation = the movies.

No, it does not. Personal interpretations have no value in terms of dealing with situations which include the EU. Especially over EU material that conforms to the movie. Things such as the Mace Windu and Sidious fight are elaborated upon. The Anakin vs. Obi-Wan fight is elaborated upon. So, how is a canon "interpretation" (fact) lower on scale than your opinion? Considering novelizations are on the list of canon things, opinions are not. Novelizations have the LFL stamp. Your "opinion" does not.

The point must be completely flying over your head (though, I can't see how as its so big). Novelizations = canon. You = not canon. Novelizations contain fact, "interpretations" are basically speculation - whether supported or not. It's still an assumption.

Some things in the movie are left open to interpretation completely, in which even the EU doesn't give answer to. For example, how Anakin was born. It's up to the viewer. In terms of this versus forum, and when including EU - things such as why Anakin lost at Mustafar, why Dooku fled the fight with Yoda, etc. are not open for anymore interpretation because the EU has given answers. Answers. My Buddha, we include EU material here - EU material > anything you *think*.

I'm not saying that my interpretation is definitely right, but until it is refuted by either common sense or evidence from the movies, it is perfectly valid.

No, on subjects such as "who created Anakin?", things that are not answered specifically are valid as another. I could say Plagueis created Anakin, you could say he was born through the Force, etc. Which one is right?

Answer: They are both as valid, because that specifically is open to interpretation. And for the most part, the EU has left that unanswered. Other things that are answered in EU (specifically novelizations) are more valid than anything you could think voice an "opinion" about.

Let's take one final example:

Okay, Debater X takes the position that Dooku fled from Yoda because he had to catch an appointment, or didn't have time. Whatever. Now Debater Y disagrees, and says that he left because he couldn't take Yoda.

X refutes that for however long with stuff like "they looked equal! Neither got tired! Etc!".

So, who's right? I'd probably say X for various reasons, now if I ignore the EU, the AOTC novelization, then it would seem X is right (assuming ROTS wasn't released). If I choose not to ignore it, then Y is right.

Novelizations > You. Simple as that. In closing, I pose one question: Is your opinion on something worth more than a canon material fact on the same thing?

Wait, I'll answer it for you: Hell no. And Sexiest, thanks for zee compliments.

By your logic Advent, Mace Windu and the other CWC jedi are as powerful as they were in the cartoons because nothing directly contradicts that.

Originally posted by Jen'ari
By your logic Advent, Mace Windu and the other CWC jedi are as powerful as they were in the cartoons because nothing directly contradicts that.

How's that my logic exactly? Am I stating the novelization says things that they are not capable of in the movies? No? Alright. Novelizations elaborate upon what has already been laid down. As fact. The CW cartoons take into a completely different realm with ridiculous feats like Mace Windu jumping several miles, and punching out an army of battle droids with his bare hands. Novelizations do not exaggerate feats, but relate directly to what happens in the movie and don't "tell tales".

Look: If the novelizations themselves are based upon the movies, how is your opinion higher than that? You're stating because you're interpreting off the movie that your opinion holds a higher value, but then how is that considering the novelizations are based off the movie directly?

Difference is - they are canon, you are not. Contradictory elements of novelizations are obviously trumped by the movie. Such as Darth Maul flipping over the shaft when dueling with Qui-Gon. The reason Obi-Wan was able to keep up, however, was not contradictory and is sealed by the label of LFL, making it on a higher plane of canon than anything you *think* about Obi-Wan. Whether it be Obi-Wan was better than Qui-Gon, or Maul was tired.

'How's that my logic exactly? Am I stating the novelization says things that they are not capable of in the movies? No? Alright. Novelizations elaborate upon what has already been laid down. As fact. The CW cartoons take into a completely different realm with ridiculous feats like Mace Windu jumping several miles, and punching out an army of battle droids with his bare hands. Novelizations do not exaggerate feats, but relate directly to what happens in the movie and don't "tell tales".'

It is your logic and a perfect analogy. You disregard how Mace Windu was depicted in the cartoon because of your interpretation of his skills in other higher forms of canon. I am doing the same here, Luke can't have been as skilled as he was described in the novel imo because of my interpretation of his skills in the movies, the higher form of canon. You're doing the same thing as I am.

'Look: If the novelizations themselves are based upon the movies, how is your opinion higher than that? You're stating because you're interpreting off the movie that your opinion holds a higher value, but then how is that considering the novelizations are [b]based off the movie directly?'[/b]

No, that's completely wrong. The novel is even somewhat contradictory to the film. You make it sound as if all the novel does is elaborate on the movie, that's not so. By your logic, the games are also canon (not game play mechanics, but cut scenes and such).

The point is ROTJ Luke is on par with Maul, and you guys can debate the winner. Maul might win by experince but probably not.